Questions for debaters/voters

Author: Castin

Posts

Total: 36
Topic's author
#1
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
Debate rounds can have dreadfully long walls of text that can be very tedious to read. Do any experienced members have any tips or advice on how to make it easier to get through them?

In a full forfeit debate, is your style to award all points to the non-forfeiter, or to award the conduct point to the non-forfeiter but tie everything else? Why?

I've been doing the latter, but I'm debating it. The argument for the former is presumably that if a person forfeits they should get no points, not even tie points. And the argument for the latter is presumably that if no one made any arguments or posted any sources, no points should be given in favor of either side.

#2
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
You boys need to make the debate stuff easier for Ms. Castin. It's too much readin' for her. 
#3
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Castin
Let the interest in the topic be what carries you through. That's the best tip I can give. 

Perhaps you're seeing a topic that interests you and going 'oh god this is so long and I hated reading that other long one' and not giving it a proper try.

10 days later

#4
Tejretics
Tejretics's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 501
3
4
8
Tejretics's avatar
Tejretics
3
4
8
-->
@Castin
Debate rounds can have dreadfully long walls of text that can be very tedious to read. Do any experienced members have any tips or advice on how to make it easier to get through them? 
To some people, this might seem even more tedious, but I tend to flow (i.e., take notes) of the debates and look at my notes. That'll both ensure I read it and make the debate seem briefer on my notes. 

In a full forfeit debate, is your style to award all points to the non-forfeiter, or to award the conduct point to the non-forfeiter but tie everything else? Why? 
Doesn't really matter, it's the same effect. I tend to award arguments and conduct. However, I will note that the current DART CoC has a definition of full forfeit debates that I privately disagree with, though I will enforce it unless any changes are made. 

I've been doing the latter, but I'm debating it. The argument for the former is presumably that if a person forfeits they should get no points, not even tie points. And the argument for the latter is presumably that if no one made any arguments or posted any sources, no points should be given in favor of either side. 
I really think the issue is meaningless.

#5
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Castin
Read the comments through first. But you have to read them "backwards" as the most recent posts are on top.
#6
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@Castin
In general, I start off skim reading the debate, and opening writing my RFD in note pad.

Then I go through the debate for the vote. I start off with the first argument, work out is strength, how well it’s supoorted, then start moving down,  back and forth to determine where the argument is mentioned, if it is refuted, and assess those refutations and their strength. 

After this, I go back to the top and start with the second. Then third, etc.

it can mean that I read the debate about 73 times, but it does mean second and third times around I catch things I missed: I have repeatedly ended up changing my determined winner this way.

9 days later

Topic's author
#7
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Ramshutu
Wow, solid advice. Thanks.

Do you find drinking coffee or energy drinks beforehand improves your comprehension or focus?
#8
blamonkey
blamonkey's avatar
Debates: 24
Posts: 532
3
5
8
blamonkey's avatar
blamonkey
3
5
8
-->
@Castin
Look for headers. The great thing about text debates is that you don't need to wait for transitions from contention to contention. 

Also, skim read first, so you get the basic idea of what the debate is about and just the main points. Then, read it one more time in depth.

Take a few breaks to mull over what each opponent is saying, and maybe read out the arguments to yourself too.




#9
blamonkey
blamonkey's avatar
Debates: 24
Posts: 532
3
5
8
blamonkey's avatar
blamonkey
3
5
8
-->
@Castin
A little caffeine is useful, but a lot for me makes it hard to focus.
#10
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,274
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
She's not the only one. The brain can get pretty disinterested in reading material that doesn't cast an image (in the mind) after a while.
Topic's author
#11
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Tejretics
I have no idea why jotting notes hasn't occurred to me before now. *blinks*

Can I ask why you disagree with the CoC's definition of an FF? You've got me curious.

#12
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Castin
Forfeited debates are just conduct points. As far as walls of text are concerned just try to formalise the arguments ingo syllogisms (for example) to retain the arguments better and go from there. 
#13
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Ramshutu
You are doing it wrong.. You shouldn't be working out how strong their arguments are. That is inserting your own opinion into the debate
#14
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@Wylted
”Weighing entails analyzing how the relative strength of one set of arguments and counterarguments outweighed and/or precluded another set of them, and then, in turn, how this strength imbalance led to the decision to give one debater a win as opposed to a loss. This requires situating the arguments and counterarguments being analyzed within the context of the debate as a whole.”

Yes. I have to consider how strong one side argues their position compared to another.
Topic's author
#15
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Wylted
Forfeited debates are just conduct points. As far as walls of text are concerned just try to formalise the arguments ingo syllogisms (for example) to retain the arguments better and go from there. 
Yeah, this is what I'll do. Do you ever take notes? Jot down the syllogisms?

#16
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Castin
I summarize and write down every single point. I do a type of chart. I'll vote on one soon and take a picture of my nores maybe.
#17
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Ramshutu
The strength of the argument can not be determined until you see the rebuttals and premises. Imagine the following to bare assertions.

1. Aliens are real and suck on my testicles when I sleep.

2. The sun exists.

You would probably rank argument 2 as stronger, but that is the incorrect way to do so. You should judge debates as if you have no prior knowledge at all of anything whatsoever. These are both bare assertions and should be weighted exactly evenly at this point. So no the strength of an argument shoyld not be "determined" by the judge, but by the debaters themselves. Who should debate on a blank slate. 


Topic's author
#18
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Wylted
I summarize and write down every single point. I do a type of chart. I'll vote on one soon and take a picture of my nores maybe.
Definitely would be interested to see. Wouldn't have thought a chart was something you could quickly jot down, like notes.

#19
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Castin
The chart is to simplify note taking. It is in collumns. 

Column 1 contentions collumn 2 rebuttals collumn 3 counter rebuttals. Collum 4 each persons impact analysis of the points to help guide me into how I should weigh the arguments and rebuttals.
#20
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
If I am energetic I will break down all the points by actually typing them into a computer if not I summarize all my thoughts.


#21
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
If I don't handwrite them then I copy and paste everything writtwn into collumns deleting all the fluff.
#22
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
Actually I can't show you. I'm still banned from voting. Please fix that
#23
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@Wylted
I think you misunderstand.

If Pro makes argument A, and con refutes with B, if con makes argument C and pro refutes with D:

As a voter you need to determine whether B refutes A and whether D refutes C, and in the case of a draw how A stacks up to C as a comparative argument. All require comparative analysis of strength.

Weighting strength is used as a method of comparrison not of independent scoring.

IE: you don’t judge strength independently of what I said to award a win: “your argument is shitty and it doesn’t count - I award points to con”, but to allow a direct comparison of arguments: “pro won 5 arguments - con won 5, but cons arguments better support the premise under contention due to x/y/z”.
#24
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Ramshutu
When I get a day off I will start a thread teaching you how to vote, but auffice it to say you do it wrong. I think bluesteel made a good voting guide on DDO try to use google to find it, but I have seen your votes. I have yet to see a single vote done correctly even the times you get the conclusion correct.

#25
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@Wylted
I accept your concession.
#26
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
No you are still trying to use your own judgement in analyzing debates instead of coming in like a new born alien. It's clear even from your last statement where you try to determine the "strength" of arguments.
#27
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Wylted you have no fucking clue what competence is. Castin and Virt are 1000000000x more competent than bsh1, Being a slave to the community shows a spineless shithead who can't moderate worth his salt based on his own deductions of Justice.
#28
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Castin
@David
You guys do not know how undeserving bsh1 is of being your boss yet, in time you will see it I hope.
Topic's author
#29
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Wylted
Actually I can't show you. I'm still banned from voting. Please fix that
Sorry about that. Sent a PM to the mods. They should see to it soon.

Topic's author
#30
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@RationalMadman
I think it would be understandable for Wyl to have as poor an opinion of the mod who banned him as you do of the mod who banned you, Rash.