The US Ought to Support NATO Expansion to Sweden and Finland: https://www.debateart.com/debates/3436-the-us-ought-to-support-nato-expansion-to-sweden-and-finland
NATO Expansion
Posts
Total:
21
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@Jeff_Goldblum
NATO is evil, and tried to invade Russian sovereign land, and Russa had to exterminate those damned Jewish Nazis! Not that Russa has killed anyone ever... Oh and the author of this post needs to be sent to a Gulag for speaking a banned word...
/satire
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@Barney
I am willing to debate you on that, from Russia and China's Perspective, US's expansion of NATO is indeed threatening, no matter whether or not NATO's values are 'good' for humanity in some ways.
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@Greyparrot
I vaguely recall you stating NATO expansion is what provoked Russia into its invasion of Ukraine.
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@Jeff_Goldblum
There really hasn't been much rational discussion about what the people of Russia want. The only mantra repeated is that Putin is crazy.
Even if you were to believe that is the case, then NATO should have pre-emptively nuked Russia. Since NATO authorities have not done so, it is obvious that Putin isn't nearly as crazy as suggested and that there is a legitimate reason why Russia does not want a massive buildup of NATO forces along its borders.
Agreed. The outrageous thing is not their incorporation into NATO against Russia's wishes but that they're only being incorporated now in 2022.
A common talking point is that each additional NATO member state on Russia's border is a potential flashpoint for the next great power war. But this misses the point: Western civilization's timeless balance-of-power doctrines suggest that each successful conquest by the enemy enhances the danger to your own country.
By this logic, NATO would've probably come to Sweden and Finland's defense anyway. What bringing them into NATO accomplishes is to strengthen the force-in-being that, by merely existing, can serve to deter Russia. If they remain neutral, then they bring no deterrent value to the table.
What their incorporation would mean is hundreds of thousands of personnel, armed with 21st century equipment and trained up to 21st century standards, permanently garrisoned east of the Danish Straits. The single most likely flashpoint for a big war, an invasion of the Baltics, would be much harder for Russia to successfully pull off, lowering the odds that Putin would attempt it in the first place.
As a corollary point, the PRC would like to invade the ROC but is wary of conflict with the US Navy. The breakout of a major war in Europe would divide America's resources, raising the likelihood that China would escalate to that efffect, sparking conflict between the world's two largest economies. Deterring a Baltic War will lower the odds of this happening, as the US force would not be divided and so China would not perceive an unusual opportunity to take what it wants.
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@RationalMadman
If I was either of them, I would not want more people agreeing to mutual defense; kinda limits later conquest potential. Plus, OWG=bad.
That said, I fully stand by criticizing their anti-news laws:
I don't spend much time in the politics forum, has anyone made a good defense for that?
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@Barney
I don't spend much time in the politics forum, has anyone made a good defense for that?
I'm pretty sure American journalists were discouraged from calling the Iraq war an American Invasion.
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@Greyparrot
What punishments were they given (or threatened with) by the government? ... Additionally, why would that whataboutism make it ok?
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@Barney
Whataboutism is the standard for judging normal behavior.
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@Greyparrot
I'm having to infer a bit from that...
So no punishments nor threats of punishments to journalists from the USA, which somehow means Russia is perfectly normal and good to threaten journalists because the USA didn't?
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@Jeff_Goldblum
NATO is just the official club motto..
Whether or not Sweden and Finland are currently in the club is irrelevant in terms of allegiance.
How Turkey fits into the club is a more interesting proposition....Clearly a regional powerhouse and a strong ally to have in the club. But Turkey's current stance on Sweden and Finland certainly raises questions.
And so the current ageing paranoid Russian megalomaniac makes a huge error of judgement by blundering into Ukraine, on the Basis of a phoney pretext which no one else really bought, other than a few ageing acolytes and invested sycophants. So how do you get out of that one without looking a right plonker.
Die I suppose.
And talking of right plonkers, did you listen to Dubya's recent speech on the subject.
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@Barney
Sorry but Greyparrot does have a point, you had to be part of a really liberal Newspaper to dare venture into the war crimes done by the US soldiers and humiliating, barbaric torture and bullying they gave the Iraqi prisoners.
Don't fuck around being biased, the Iraq War was one big crime against humanity, the only good that came out of it was Hussein was no longer tyrant of Iraq... Not that Iraq is heavenly since. Around 200k Iraqis died from the war.
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@Barney
The Mahmudiyah rape and killings were war crimes involving the gang-rape and murder of 14-year-old Iraqi child Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi and the murder of her family by United States Army soldiers on March 12, 2006. It occurred in the family's house to the southwest of Yusufiyah, a village to the west of the town of Al-Mahmudiyah, Iraq. Other members of al-Janabi's family murdered by Americans included her 34-year-old mother Fakhriyah Taha Muhasen, 45-year-old father Qassim Hamza Raheem, and 6-year-old sister Hadeel Qassim Hamza Al-Janabi.[1] The two remaining survivors of the family, 9-year-old brother Ahmed and 11-year-old brother Mohammed, were at school during the massacre and orphaned by the event.
Five U.S. Army soldiers of the 502nd Infantry Regiment were charged with rape and murder; Specialist Paul E. Cortez, Specialist James P. Barker, Private First Class Jesse V. Spielman, Private First Class Bryan L. Howard, and Private First Class Steven D. Green.[2] Green was discharged from the U.S. Army for mental instability before the crimes were known by his command, whereas Cortez, Barker, Spielman and Howard were tried by U.S. Army General Courts Martial, convicted, and sentenced to prison.[2] Green was tried and convicted in a United States civilian court and was sentenced to life in prison
US military commanders have established permissive "rules of engagement," allowing troops to use "deadly force" against virtually any perceived threat. As a consequence, the US and its allies regularly kill Iraqi civilians at checkpoints and during military operations, on the basis of the merest suspicion. US Coalition forces also kill many Iraqi non-combatants during military operations and air strikes. In this environment of permissive violence, some soldiers have committed pre-meditated murder, and several shocking atrocities, such as the Haditha massacre, have come to light.
Marine Says Officers Ordered To "Crank Up" Violence in Iraq (July 15, 2007)
A group of US Marines and a Navy corpsman attempted to cover up the April 2006 murder of an Iraqi man by planting a weapon on him "to make it appear he had been killed in a shootout." In their defense, the Marines revealed that officers had instructed them to step up the violence against suspected insurgents. The incident suggests that the pervasive culture of cruelty among US servicemen in Iraq may originate from further up the military chain of command. (Associated Press)
More to be found... https://archive.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/atrocitindex.htm
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@RationalMadman
What punishments were the journalists who reported on those crimes given (or threatened with) by the US government?
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@Barney
Just their bosses on behalf of CIA arm twisters.
Just their bosses on behalf of CIA arm twisters.
The WH correspondents dinner is one of the most flagrant examples of the press being manipulated into going along to get along. Anyone who does not gets sent packing. Whether it is overt or covert, the end result is the same as with Russia's press.
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@Greyparrot
Not quite the same, US media does not (other than Fox News) tend to directly lie and fabricate.
Not quite the same, US media does not (other than Fox News) tend to directly lie and fabricate.
Only a truly uninformed person would think ALL of the media (not just "mah fox") covered the American Invasion of Iraq without lies and deceptions.
Compelling debate on this I watched recently: https://youtu.be/nzqHDgSqck8
Very good performance from both sides. Learned a lot from it, though fuck if I remember any of it