My latest thoughts on gender roles

Author: secularmerlin

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#1
secularmerlin
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Your ability to produce sperm or eggs unimportant to me in determining if any given human can join the boy scouts or the army. I do not take it into account when deciding which bathroom you should use. In no way does your (in)ability to produce sperm or eggs make it less damaging for personal wellbeing or the public health to investigate or prosecute criminal cases differently in this basis. It should not be an issue when determining if someone receives a loan or government aid. 

IF there is no legal distinction THEN what is the argument AGAINST accepting someone else's personal identity or even just treating it as though it were none of your buisness which of course also exists as an option?

Your argument might go 

IF X is true THEN biologically female persons should not be allowed to join the boy scouts. 

Or similar. 


#2
RationalMadman
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@secularmerlin
There is a legal distinction. It is how literal prisons (legal punishment) get split for starters.

That said, some trans have been permitted to be imprisoned with their chosen gender. I do not need to spell out for you what a criminally-minded trans woman is physically capable of doing to a cis-female cellmate, nor how harsh the female prisoners can be with their backlash to the prisoner.

There often isnt a safe place to send them.
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#3
secularmerlin
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@RationalMadman
A person's inability to produce sperm is not considered in the case of sterile candidates. Clearly it is not sperm production but other factors that decide which prison one is sent to. In any case at least as of recently the law supports transgender women being housed in women's prisons so your legal arguments are somewhat flat here. 
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#4
secularmerlin
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@RationalMadman
I do not need to spell out for you what a criminally-minded trans woman is physically capable of doing to a cis-female cellmate, nor how harsh the female prisoners can be with their backlash to the prisoner.
Argument from consequence. I heard an argument like this that really hurt some people once. Babies cried and stuff fell over and everything. 
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#5
secularmerlin
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@RationalMadman
There often isnt a safe place to send them.
For whom is prison safe?

"Knowing humans as though dost would you allow yourself to be captured defenseless by them?"

Q- Star Trek T.N.G.
#6
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@secularmerlin
Yes buddy, the sperm production does not matter if you are XX or XY.

We can keep tiptoeing the topic or hitting home the truth.

Feminine men are entitled to be that way, they are men. Masculine women are entitled to be that way, they are women.

Transitioning used to mean breaking gender roles, now it means conforming to them so hardcore that you think to be feminine you need to switch your appeared sex, not just gender.

We are at a stage where if I said this IRL around people of the current young generation who got it on record and ensured my employer and colleagues knew about it, I could well be cancelled, fired overnight, marred for life in my career prospects.

This is not how to cure transphobia, this is how to directly play the part of the villain. We cannot fucking discuss things, just cancelled and scared shit to say our thoughts if they offend a sympathised demographic of the time. I do not have a phobia of trans people, I have a concern why a feminine man cannot admit he is a man and why a butch, masculine woman feels the need to go by 'he'. I have a concern why people who hate their natural bodies so much they feel sick inside when looking in the mirror are not taught to love it but to alter their appeared sex (not gender, sex) as a pseudo-solution to the original insecurity at the heart of their fragile psyche.

This is just propaganda on one side vs actual logic from the other.

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#7
secularmerlin
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@RationalMadman
Feminine men are entitled to be that way, they are men. Masculine women are entitled to be that way, they are women.
But... they might be in danger if they are sent to prison. Where do you suggest we send them? Will a feminine man be safer in a women's prison? Should they be housed there on that basis even if they identify as a man and want to be treated as such?
#8
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@secularmerlin
A feminine man currently is sent to men's prison if they identify as a man.

Do you really think in prison only masculine people harm feminine ones? It isn't that simple. I do not think for one second you have a single case here, you are just attacking and not defending.


You said there is no legal distinction, I proved even at the core basis of legal enforcement, their indubitably is a distinction.


You didn't ask if I support hardcore prison or Scandinavian reform type punishment. You did not ask me anything other than loaded questions intended to 'gotcha' because that is all your side can do.
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#9
secularmerlin
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@RationalMadman
I have a concern why a feminine man cannot admit he is a man and why a butch, masculine woman feels the need to go by 'he'.
This has not been eliminated as an option. 
I have a concern why people who hate their natural bodies so much they feel sick inside when looking in the mirror are not taught to love it but to alter their appeared sex (not gender, sex) as a pseudo-solution to the original insecurity at the heart of their fragile psyche.
This is neither a uniquely trans issue nor is it universally an issue for all trans persons. I have no problem with a "butch" female identifying as a woman I have no problem with a "feminine" female identifying as a woman. I don't have a problem with the transgender man who wants to join a drag race show.

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#10
secularmerlin
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@RationalMadman
Do you really think in prison only masculine people harm feminine ones?
No but I'm not sure what your point is in that case.
#11
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@secularmerlin
I will wait for you to prove to us that there is no legal distinction. Good luck.
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#12
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@RationalMadman
I see no practical legal distinction. Women's prisons can be for male women. Men's prisons can be for men who do not produce sperm Male or otherwise. 
#13
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@secularmerlin
Only in the nations that decided to make exceptions to the legal distinction which is still present for all cisgendered people.
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#14
secularmerlin
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@RationalMadman
Essentially the legal distinction is between WOMAN and MAN not MALE and FEMALE. 

No distinction is made between sperm producing men and non sperm producing men.
#15
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@secularmerlin
Your ability to produce sperm or eggs unimportant to me in determining if any given human can join the boy scouts or the army.
That's up to the Boy Scouts and Army.

I do not take it into account when deciding which bathroom you should use. In no way does your (in)ability to produce sperm or eggs make it less damaging for personal wellbeing or the public health to investigate or prosecute criminal cases differently in this basis.
That's up to the proprietor. For example, while I'd generally maintain the notion that what one does in the bathroom is one's business, when one uses a bathroom that belongs to another, how that property is used is the business of the proprietor.

IF there is no legal distinction THEN what is the argument AGAINST accepting someone else's personal identity or even just treating it as though it were none of your buisness which of course also exists as an option?
I don't find any issue with the existence of descriptions of "identity" which contradict my own; the only issue I find is in the suggestion or the prospect of legislating them--i.e. descriptions of "identity."

IF X is true THEN biologically female persons should not be allowed to join the boy scouts. 
That's still up to the Boy Scouts. But there's a lot more to the Boy Scouts especially the Boy Scouts of America which I can broach, but it wouldn't be relevant.
#16
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@secularmerlin
Actually the distinction was and is male vs female but you are now permitted in certain nationstates to flip it to the other gender on your ID, passport, driver's license etc despite it using the term male or female. Good luck trying your rhetoric on the less capable, back off.
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#17
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@RationalMadman
I feel like this entire exchange has been more or less completely besides the point as whenever touched on why a female or a girl should not be allowed into the boyscouts.
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#18
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@Athias
Saying "it is up to the boy scouts" is tantamount to saying that you see no reason a female person should not be allowed to join.
#19
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@secularmerlin
No the boy scouts point is besides the point of legal differentiation in adults.
#20
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@secularmerlin
There is a basic undeniable reality which you attempt to avoid.

And the there are socially contrived realities which you selectively utilise as justification for something.

Such are the available possibilities.

And we are fortunate to live in reasonably liberal societies, wherein we can discuss such things freely and openly.....And long may that continue to be the case..

Though the fact that you continually need to justify something, does indicate that you continually need to justify something.


I personally am not being judgemental, it's just that I like to firstly try and understand the base reality of the human condition..

34 days later

#21
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@Athias
What is a woman?
#22
Polytheist-Witch
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Again it's all about men transitioning  to women and nothing about women becoming men know why? Man can't stand it the idea of a man wanting to be a woman because women are such pieces of shit.
#23
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@Ultramaga
Women is when you think you are one. Society determines whether one is legally a women(and in some countries, transgenderism is "illegal"---they just don't provide you such service), but some governments are lenient enough to listen to you; others are not as lenient and looks at your crotch(or does a DNA test if you are "stubborn", possibly) and automatically assigns you a gender which you may or may not believe.
#24
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@secularmerlin
@Ultramaga
@secularmerlin:
Saying "it is up to the boy scouts" is tantamount to saying that you see no reason a female person should not be allowed to join.
No, it isn't. It means that the only reasons as to a female person's being allowed to join the Boy Scouts are strictly under the discretion of the Boy Scouts.

@Ultramaga:
What is a woman?
Women are adult females whose role in reproduction is delineated primarily as gestation.

#25
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@Polytheist-Witch
Again it's all about men transitioning  to women and nothing about women becoming men know why? Man can't stand it the idea of a man wanting to be a woman because women are such pieces of shit.
I love this take