What is a man or woman?

Author: secularmerlin

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Quote from source.
The external sex organs may not match the internal sex organs or genetic sex.
Consider the case of a baby with only x chromosomes but which has functioning penis and testicles. Is this a female boy? Is it a girl with a penis? 

Lets consider an infant with functional ovaries and a non functional penis. Is that a boy or a girl? Would you support surgery to "correct" their genitals?

Let's consider an infant that displays some degree of hermaphrodism. Do you support surgery to "correct" their genitals? Which genitals should we "correct" them to have?
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@secularmerlin

 An adult is made up of around 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (7 octillion) atoms. Sometimes certain neuron connections don't work properly.
God would have flunked out of MIT.


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Discussed this exact thing in a different thread not that long ago, but to summarize:

Men are members of a species who are built around the production of small gametes, women are members of a species who are built around the production of large gametes.
Certain other traits are typically associated with men and with women.
With a proper understanding of a kind from the Philosophy of Science there is a proper understanding that deviation from typical traits does not necessitate that you aren't a part of said kind, and this concept can be applied to men and women as well.
Thus, sex is binary.
All known intersex conditions still fall under this binary understanding.
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@TheMorningsStar
All known intersex conditions still fall under this binary understanding.
Ok then you should have no trouble telling me if a baby with only x chromosomes and a functioning penis is a female boy or a girl with a penis. 
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@secularmerlin
Depends on what you mean by "functioning penis".
Do you mean that said person has a penis for pissing but has ova and their plumbing is mostly built around that? Then they are a woman with a penis.
If they somehow have testes and the plumbing for such despite having no Y-Chromosome (something impossible iirc), then they would be a man.
Chromosomes are some of the most reliable indicators but they aren't infallible.
Just like there are conditions where a woman is born with an X and a Y Chromosome but develops entirely female is a woman.
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@secularmerlin
Ok then you should have no trouble telling me if a baby with only x chromosomes and a functioning penis is a female boy or a girl with a penis. 
That’s irrelevant, and frankly up to a doctor to designate. Is it possible to have 6 fingers on a hand? Yes. But do we say that humans have 6 fingers on a hand. No. 
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@ILikePie5
Exactly. Deviation from typical traits does not make you no longer of a particular kind of thing. This is well known and established within the philosophy of science, yet it is ignoring this very understanding that leads to attempts to call sex bimodal instead of binary.
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@secularmerlin
You are describing developmental anomalies, that fall outside the general classifications of male and female.

There are approximately 140 million new organisms produced annually.

Therefore a certain amount of  developmental anomalies relating to gender are to be expected. 

Just as there will be other types of developmental anomalies.


As described above. The male/man produces sperm and the female/woman produces ova.


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@TheMorningsStar
Exactly. Deviation from typical traits does not make you no longer of a particular kind of thing.
Sounds like arguments I've seen from YECers. 
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@secularmerlin
Men are adult males whose role in reproduction is delineated primarily as insemination.
Women are adult females whose role in reproduction is delineated primarily as gestation.

It's always been that clear-cut to me.
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@secularmerlin
@TheMorningsStar
Consider the case of a baby with only x chromosomes but which has functioning penis and testicles

>Primary 1} 'Womb'-man Xx wherein small compacted x is a Barr Body and at least 18 of its genes are still active,

..some women and intersex{ Hermaphrodite } people born with out womb..see LINK.....

..."Because MRKH is characterized by an underdeveloped or nonexistent uterus and vagina, women with the condition suffer from Uterine Factor Infertility (UFI). UFI is a previously irreversible form of female infertility that affects as many as 5 percent of reproductive-aged women worldwide "....

......Most of the vids of intersex people Ive seen these persons appear to me to identify as woman.....

Woman is primary for 2 reason; 1} All woman and men come from a woman., and 2} there exists female only species that pop out exact clones of themselves, and no evidence of only male specicies exist and none that poppout exact clones of themselves.

>>Less Primary 2} Man { no 'womb' } Xy, wherein, the y carries the SRY gene
----------------------------------------------------------

...." Counter intuitively, males with two X-chromosomes were faster to ejaculate and display more ejaculations than males with a single X. Moreover, mice of both sexes with two X-chromosomes displayed increased frequencies of mounts and thrusts. We speculate that expression levels of a yet to be discovered gene(s) on the X-chromosome may affect sexual behavior in mice and perhaps in other mammals. "...
-------------------------------------------------------------

It has longed been believed --if not also because of evidence--- that the much smaller y chromosome is a deriviation of the much larger X chromosome.  Some might believe that the y is an aborted resultant of a an X. Others think the y with ---its SRY gene---, may have come from  extra-terrestrial sources, just as the X may have.



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@Athias
Men are adult males whose role in reproduction is delineated primarily as insemination.
Women are adult females whose role in reproduction is delineated primarily as gestation.

It's always been that clear-cut to me.
what do you make of those who have no reproductive capacity ?
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@secularmerlin
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@zedvictor4
Therefore a certain amount of  developmental anomalies relating to gender are to be expected. 
THE QUESTION AT HAND IS, HOW DO YOU PERSONALLY BELIEVE THESE "ANOMALIES" SHOULD BE CATEGORIZED ?
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@TheMorningsStar
Exactly. Deviation from typical traits does not make you no longer of a particular kind of thing. This is well known and established within the philosophy of science, yet it is ignoring this very understanding that leads to attempts to call sex bimodal instead of binary.
this is a matter of ontological choice
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@Athias
It's always been that clear-cut to me.

There are species of fish that, depending on their sizeand wieght, they can transform back and forth between male and female.

There are species of a flatworm in oceans, that have one or two penis, and which ever flatworm stabs the other one first, the one being stabbed first gets pregnant.

There a few all femaleonly  species , that pop-out exact clones of them selves.  There is no evidence of all male only species,  and certainly no all male species that pop-out exact clones of them selves.

X is more complex the the y for two primary reasons: 1} mathematically there exist more lines-of-relationship, 2} more chance for synergetic relationships that more likey to occur with a larger set of relationships.  We know from lab experiements, that when asked a series of questions, womens brains tend to be more active in both hemi-spheres of the brain.

Woman have a uterus/womb, men have a prostate gland.  If any here believe  the functionality of  prostrate gland is more complicated than the functionality of uterus/womb, I love to see the evidence of such.

Woman is the most complex entity of Universe, putting aside scenarios of two women, one woman and one man, or a who Earth or solar system or finite Univrse. 

The 2ndayr symbolism for man and woman should be as follows and not the old venus mirror vanity symbol and mars shield and spear.

1( *  * ) as complex bilateral consciousness

2} Woman as  closed triangular set .... /\ ......... and with internalized two ovaries or  eyes, hemi-spheres set etc of bilateral \* */ tho I dont have mechansim to close the top line here,

3} Man as open triangular set *Y* whereas the testes are externalized, ears, eyes two hemi-spheres bilateral set,

4} when man symbol is placed inside of woman symbol, we get a birds-eye-view of the minimal 3D structure of Universe, the tetrahedron \Y/.  LINK

There exists, generally speaking, three X chromosomes for every y chromosome in Universe.  Xx-Xy so No wonder men feel so inferior ;--)
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@ILikePie5
That’s irrelevant, and frankly up to a doctor to designate. Is it possible to have 6 fingers on a hand? Yes. But do we say that humans have 6 fingers on a hand. No. 
it can't be "irrelevant", since it is EXPLICITLY the key point of this entire discussion.

"up to a doctor" you say ?

appeal-to-authority much ?
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@ebuc
all humans are proto-typically female

the male is a mutant
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@TheMorningsStar
Just like there are conditions where a woman is born with an X and a Y Chromosome but develops entirely female is a woman.
"androgen insensitivity"

also,

in exactly what kinds of situations does it need to be "known" by the state, and or the public at large, what i look like naked ?
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@TheMorningsStar
All known intersex conditions still fall under this binary understanding.
so, no ancient greek hermaphrodites
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@3RU7AL
..."up to a doctor" you say ?.....appeal-to-authority much ?...
I  would generally trust a scientific approach more than some doctors

That were all proto-woman agrees with old sayings Ive heard for many years, tho I cant recall them now.

If y is deriviation of the X the that falls in line with aborted X scenarios.  I used to have a link to some university that claimed evidence to show that. Lost that link soe years back as computers died out on me.

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@3RU7AL
what do you make of those who have no reproductive capacity ?
Aberration.

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@ebuc
There are species of fish that, depending on their sizeand wieght, they can transform back and forth between male and female.

There are species of a flatworm in oceans, that have one or two penis, and which ever flatworm stabs the other one first, the one being stabbed first gets pregnant.

There a few all femaleonly  species , that pop-out exact clones of them selves.  There is no evidence of all male only species,  and certainly no all male species that pop-out exact clones of them selves.

X is more complex the the y for two primary reasons: 1} mathematically there exist more lines-of-relationship, 2} more chance for synergetic relationships that more likey to occur with a larger set of relationships.  We know from lab experiements, that when asked a series of questions, womens brains tend to be more active in both hemi-spheres of the brain.
Pardon me:

Athias Post #10:
Men are adult [human] males whose role in reproduction is delineated primarily as insemination.
Women are adult [human] females whose role in reproduction is delineated primarily as gestation.

Woman is the most complex entity of Universe, putting aside scenarios of two women, one woman and one man, or a who Earth or solar system or finite Univrse. 

The 2ndayr symbolism for man and woman should be as follows and not the old venus mirror vanity symbol and mars shield and spear.

1( *  * ) as complex bilateral consciousness

2} Woman as  closed triangular set .... /\ ......... and with internalized two ovaries or  eyes, hemi-spheres set etc of bilateral \* */ tho I dont have mechansim to close the top line here,

3} Man as open triangular set *Y* whereas the testes are externalized, ears, eyes two hemi-spheres bilateral set,

4} when man symbol is placed inside of woman symbol, we get a birds-eye-view of the minimal 3D structure of Universe, the tetrahedron \Y/.  LINK

There exists, generally speaking, three X chromosomes for every y chromosome in Universe.  Xx-Xy so No wonder men feel so inferior ;--)
What does any of this have to do with what I stated?

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@Athias
About 9% of men and about 11% of women of reproductive age in the United States have experienced fertility problems.

do you personally consider these (33 million american) humans neither male nor female ?
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@Athias
what do you make of those who have no reproductive capacity ?
not to mention those who are beyond their reproductive years
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@3RU7AL
About 9% of men and about 11% of women of reproductive age in the United States have experienced fertility problems.

do you personally consider these (33 million american) humans neither male nor female ?
No. Their incapacity to reproduce is an aberration. And note that I stated that their "roles" in reproduction are delineated "primarily" as insemination and gestation--taking into account sterile men and barren women.

not to mention those who are beyond their reproductive years
Hasn't changed the "role."
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@Athias
Hasn't changed the "role."
many humans never participate in the reproductive process (including caring for the children of relatives and or non-relatives)

how can you pretend to assign a "role" to someone who never participates in that "role" ?
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@3RU7AL
many humans never participate in the reproductive process (including caring for the children of relatives and or non-relatives)

how can you pretend to assign a "role" to someone who never participates in that "role" ?
Let's put it this way: if I were to tell you that my grandfather and my grandmother wanted to attempt reproduction, which one would attempt insemination, and which one would attempt gestation?

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@Athias
Let's put it this way: if I were to tell you that my friend sam and my friend rory wanted to attempt reproduction, which one would attempt insemination, and which one would attempt gestation?

(trick question, they're identical twins, but they can still "attempt reproduction" all the same)
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@3RU7AL
Let's put it this way: if I were to tell you that my friend sam and my friend rory wanted to attempt reproduction, which one would attempt insemination, and which one would attempt gestation?

(trick question, they're identical twins, but they can still "attempt reproduction" all the same)
If they're both pubescent/post-pubescent males (absent of aberrations,) they can only attempt insemination. (I suppose they can inseminate each other, but that wouldn't be reproduction.)
If they're both pubescent/post-pubescent females (absent of aberrations,) they can only attempt gestation. (I'll leave this one to your imagination.)

Have you decided on your response to my grandparents' attempt? (I told them about it, and they're waiting for you.)