Grim Reaper Paradoxes and Causal Finitism

Author: TheMorningsStar

Posts

Total: 20
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
Is the past finite or infinite? Can objects have infinite causal histories? The Grim Reaper paradox sets out to show that this cannot be the case, and others have since added onto the discussion. I will start by presenting three formulations of the Grim Reaper paradox, the Pruss and Koon's Grim Reaper formulation, Koons Paper Passer version, and Daniel Linford's version.

Pruss and Koons Grim Reaper Paradox - text from WLC (www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/grim-reaper-paradox#_edn1)
Imagine that there are denumerably infinitely many Grim Reapers.
You are alive at midnight.
Grim Reaper #1 will strike you dead at 1:00 a.m. if you are still alive at that time.
Grim Reaper #2 will strike you dead at 12:30 a.m. if you are still alive then.
Grim Reaper #3 will strike you dead at 12:15 a.m., and so on.
Such a situation seems clearly conceivable—given the possibility of an actually infinite number of things—but leads to an impossibility:
You cannot survive past midnight, and yet you cannot be killed by any Grim Reaper at any time.
You cannot point to any particular Grim Reaper as the one that killed you as there will always have been a different Grim Reaper that should have done the job, yet you also must be dead.

 Imagined beings called paper passers who exist at every January 1st in the past.
So there’s one at January 1st, 2020, one at January 1st, 2019, and so on into an infinite past.
Their job is to receive a piece of paper from the passer who held it during the year before them and to see if it’s blank.
If the paper is blank, then they write a unique number assigned to them on it.
If the paper they receive already has a number on it, however, then they just pass the paper along to the next paper passer at the end of the year.
Now here’s the question, what number is written on the paper given to the paper passer at January 1st, 2020?
There has to be some number written on it because if it were blank then the 2020 paper passer would write his number on it.
But it can’t be blank because if it were, the 2019 paper passer would have written his number on it.
But the 2019 paper passer could not have written his number on it because if the paper were blank when he got it, the 2018 paper passer would have written his number on it.
If there are an infinite number of paper passers, then we have a paradox.

This one isn't so much a formulation of the Paradox to show the problem but to raise issue with a potential solution.
Malpass tries to formulate Hawthorne's objection to work against the Pruss and Koons formulation of the Grim Reaper Paradox.
Essentially, the objection is that while we might not know where the first moment the person is dead at we can say that we know where the last moment they are alive is at.
To quote from Malpass's blog,
"Hawthorne first considers the case of a ball rolling towards an open-infinite Zeno-sequence of walls. 2 miles away there is a wall; 1 and 1/2 miles away is another wall; 1 and 1/4 miles away is another wall; 1 and 1/8 miles away there is another wall, etc. Thus, there is an infinite sequence of walls, ever closer to the point that is exactly one mile away. There is no wall which is the ‘closest’ to the one mile point (which makes it an open sequence). Suppose the walls are impenetrable and cannot be knocked over (etc). The ball is rolled towards the walls. What happens as it arrives at the one mile mark? Hawthorne’s answer is as follows:
“The ball does not proceed beyond a mile and it does not hit a wall.” (p. 625)"

So, the solution proposed is that despite no Reapers actually doing to killing that the person still dies.
Daniel Linford responds by proposing the following,
Let’s suppose that an infinitude of guns is pointed at Fred and an infinitude of guns is pointed at Sue.
Let’s assume that if a gun fires at Fred, then Fred is killed, and if a gun fires at Sue, then Sue is killed.
After one minute has elapsed, if no gun has yet fired at Fred, then gun 1 will fire at Fred.
After half a minute has elapsed, if no gun has yet fired at Fred, then gun 2 will fire at Fred.
And so on — after 1/n of a minute, if no gun has yet fired at Fred, then gun n will fire at Fred.
No guns ever fire at Sue.
After the time interval, Fred has been killed yet — if the Hawthorne solution is to be believed — no bullets struck Fred and no guns were ever fired.
Fred and Sue are in the same situation because while an infinitude of guns were pointed at both of them, no gun was ever fired.
What explains the difference between Fred and Sue?

This is, I believe, a powerful objection. Neither Fred nor Sue were fired at. If they were they would die, yet by Hawthorne's solution Fred is dead anyways despite the same course of events happening to him as happened to Sue. How is this justified?

The answer tends to be, as argued by philosophers like Craig, Koons, Pruss, etc. that there simply cannot be an infinite causal past. There must always be some sort of first cause, as otherwise a paradox arises. This is a view I am very sympathetic to, and so I want to ask what your thoughts are on this topic. Do you think there can be an infinite causal past? What is your solution to the Grim Reaper Paradox if you wish to preserve an infinite causal past?
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
What is the past?....Save for an idea and an infinite/finite possibility relative to an idea.

Which objects, what objects?....Why the necessity for objects?

And if Pruss, Koon and Lindford get paid for churning out pointless guff, then good on them....Because some fools must be paying them to do so.





TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@zedvictor4
What is the past?
That is a different, yet also interesting, discussion topic that is not as relevant to the discussion. Causal finitism can impact the nature of the past (is it eternal or not) but the nature of the past has much less to do with the nature of causal finitism.

Which objects, what objects?....Why the necessity for objects?
Any and all in the loosest definition of the term object. Really shouldn't be hard to understand that, and it would take minimal effort to figure that out.

And if Pruss, Koon and Lindford get paid for churning out pointless guff,
I see, you are ignorant on philosophy, don't care about philosophy, and yet decide to make comments on the philosophy forum. Has anyone ever told you that if you don't have anything worthwhile to say that you do not, in fact, need to say anything at all? It is a strange concept, I know, but maybe one you should look into.
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
From what I understand sequential time breaks down at the quantum level without us observing it. 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@TheMorningsStar
Philosophy interests me greatly.

But I'm not necessarily seduced by a name.


And the first six words of your initial statement asked a question which wasn't relevant to the discussion.....Odd.

Enough said.
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@zedvictor4
And the first six words of your initial statement asked a question which wasn't relevant to the discussion.....Odd.
It is relevant, just not in the way you were framing it.
Almost all discussion on causal finitism within academia is made around the question "did the universe have a beginning?"
The reason is because if causal finitism is true then the universe necessarily had a beginning.
If causal finitism is false then it allows for (but does not necessitate) the universe to have an infinite past.
However, causal finitism has potential impacts outside of just whether or not the past is finite or not.
As such, the nature of the past does not impact causal finitism in any way but dedicating the first few words of the OP to that idea (which is what is done with this concept in academia) is not misplaced in the least.

Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
Too many presumptions, including the presumption that "time" is more than just abstract logic.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@TheMorningsStar
Notwithstanding that you've changed your mind again, and blamed me for doing so.


The unanswerable conundrum is simple......Given the limitations of knowledge, it is seemingly impossible for either the existence or non-existence of STUFF.

Therefore "academia" is reduced to floundering in the universal abyss postulating GUFF.

Causal finitism basically addresses one alternative......STUFF had a definitive beginning.....Therefore something from nothing in respect of the appearance of matter.

Now can you explain this without resorting to imaginary and incredible scenarios. 

Otherwise it's just another GOD principle that neglects to account for the GOD principle. 
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@zedvictor4
Notwithstanding that you've changed your mind again, and blamed me for doing so.
Except I haven't.
In the OP, "Is the past finite or infinite?"
In my first reply to you, "Causal finitism can impact the nature of the past (is it eternal or not) but the nature of the past has much less to do with the nature of causal finitism."
In my second reply to you, "As such, the nature of the past does not impact causal finitism in any way but dedicating the first few words of the OP to that idea (which is what is done with this concept in academia) is not misplaced in the least."

None of this is inconsistent with each other. None of it is "me changing my mind".
Are you interested in discussion or just flapping your mouth about? Because it really seems like the latter.
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,353
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@TheMorningsStar
I don't get the Grim Reaper example,
Is it Zeno's Paradox, Having to get halfway to somewhere before getting 'to somewhere?

Paper passer one makes more sense,
It basically sounds like old argument of who created the creator, who created the creator who created the creator, who c- so on.

I do not understand existence,
The fact that we exist, implies to me that 'something will always exist,
Even if universe implodes, or turns cold,
I assume that 'eventually universe will 'explode, heat up again.
But as I look around I see causes, obvious or implied for everything that is,
Indeed though, the question before that 'or what caused, 'does confuse me.

TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@Lemming
I don't get the Grim Reaper example,
It asks the question, did you die? If so, who killed you?
It, like with Zeno's paradox, uses halfway points as spacing, but it isn't quite the same.

If you are alive at 1am then Grim Reaper 1 will kill you, but you cannot be alive at such a time as Grim Reaper 2 should have already killed you.
So, if you were alive at 12:30 Grim Reaper 2 will kill you, but you cannot be alive at such a time as Grim Reaper 3 should have already killed you.
So on and so forth.

It ends with a paradox of you must die by the hands of a Grim Reaper but no Grim Reaper can actually be responsible for your death (so why are you dead?).

The Paper Passer uses the same logic but extends it to infinite time and, instead of death, it is a unique number on a piece of paper. It was created in response to some of the attempts to solve the paradox without giving up causal infinitism.

Paper passer one makes more sense,
It basically sounds like old argument of who created the creator, who created the creator who created the creator, who c- so on.
It can be formulated as such, yes. It shows that if you try and do infinite regress that it creates logical issues, thus there must be a first.
There are various attempts at allowing infinite causal histories, like Malpass and Hawthorn's that I mentioned, but I don't think they work.


Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,353
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@TheMorningsStar
People 'do die though,
If I don't die due to unnatural causes, then a heart attack, if not a heart attack, then cancer, so on.
There's no reason for the Grim Reaper to start the Reaping Clock the moment one comes into existence,
Clearly they must reap when the events in one's life and body have come about.

I sometimes experience a fear, that if existence 'is infinite, it implies I will exist again one day,
In the sense that existence will happen about, where every molecule is exactly as it was before,
And not in the sense of it being a clone,
As it can 'only be me, if there 'isn't another me, or anything different,
A 'perfect ship of Theseus, no 'new parts as replacements, rather it's 'exactly the same parts.

On the topic though,
Couldn't existence and time just loop around on itself?
Though I suppose that wouldn't explain where it came from, why there is 'something not nothing.
Maybe it's a human flaw, to think that there 'is a beginning?
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@TheMorningsStar
And you ignored everything else.

Who's flapping?


Causal finitism is a very simple concept, that doesn't require paper passers or grim reapers.

So in your own words, what do Koon, Pruss et al, set out to prove with their word games?
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@zedvictor4
There is a question in philosophy, can something (like, for example, the universe) have an infinite causal history? Is that even a possibility?

The paradoxes serve to show that our common ideas of how things should operate break down if there is such a possibility and, thus, Koons, Pruss, etc. argue that the rational choice is to dismiss the possibility of things having an infinite causal history (thus the necessity of a 'first').

Malpass, and others, disagree. They think that we have no need for a 'first', that things can have an infinite causal history.

The paradox is interesting because, as it is a conceivable and valid paradox (from a metaphysical perspective), it forces you to have to address certain ideas of how the world operates if you wish to preserve the ability for things to have an infinite causal history, which is where Malpass's argument, which makes use of Hawthorn's argument, from the OP come into play (as well as Linford's response to it).

Within philosophy the discussion and creation of paradoxes is a methodology of testing various ideas and concepts. To dismiss it as mere word games is to dismiss an important aspect of philosophy that has existed for centuries, and (unless you can present a good reason for such dismissal) would indicate to me that discussion would be a waste of time as it would indicate that, despite your claims to the contrary, you don't really care about philosophy.

Now, are you actually going to engage with the conversation or keep flapping your lips?
My doctor has just told me I likely have cancer and am not going to waste any time in my life in a pointless discussion with you if you aren't going to take this seriously.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@TheMorningsStar
I do take this seriously.


We have two unanswerable options which I  do not regard as a paradox.

We have had two unanswerable options for "centuries".

And the application of thought (philosophy) has pondered such unanswerable options for "centuries".....To no avail.

Therefore are Pruss and Koon just pointlessly p*****G into the same wind, basically for their own sakes and the sake of Academic Philosophy?


Though as I see it, the two unanswerable options are ultimately one unanswerable question.

Out of which two schools of thought have arisen.

So what is your personal hypothesis?

Or are you just here to extol the virtues of Pruss, Koon et al?


And it you think about it, your current situation, throws up two similar options, which your Doctor refers to as likelihood.

Though unfortunately the question isn't unanswerable, and your Doctor doesn't benefit from Pruss and Koons Infinite/finite safety in abstract thought.


I wish you all the best.  

Regards Zed.
sui_generis
sui_generis's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 191
0
2
5
sui_generis's avatar
sui_generis
0
2
5
-->
@TheMorningsStar
I don't understand, can you explain how the incoherence of an infinite sequence in a finite period implies the incoherence of an infinite sequence in an *infinite* period? 
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@sui_generis
This is where the Paper Passer Paradox comes into play. It shows that the timescale being finite or infinite is not the issue (as while the Grim Reaper is over a finite period the Paper Passer is over an infinite one). That paradox holds regardless on if it is over a finite period of time or an infinite one. The issue is the existence of infinite causal histories in general.

If there is an infinite past there would be an infinite causal history, and thus debates on casual finitism still hold relevancy when it comes to the talk about if the past is infinite or not.
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,353
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
It's a bit inane,
But rereading this, Ouroboros - Wikipedia pops into my mind.
Though It was the 2 snakes eating each other, rather than one.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheMorningsStar
who exactly argues in favor of infinite-regress ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheMorningsStar
to show that our common ideas of how things should operate break down
wait, are you suggesting that naïve realism is NOT the ultimate truth ?