MOD Accountability MEEP Feedback

Author: ILikePie5

Posts

Total: 60
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
Hey guys. After seeing the mods engage in conduct that blatantly abuses their power, I decided to take action. I created this MEEP to ensure that the community has the power to remove a moderator from their position of power. 

With great power comes great responsibility. As a result, there are various checks within the MEEP to prevent abuse of the statute I seek to put in the book. I would love any and all advice, either via PM or posted here publically. I will be meeting with the moderators soon. The link below has the guidelines that would be codified.

ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
@Lunatic
@thett3
@sadolite
@airmax1227
Please take a look and let me know.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
The mods didn't abuse their power in banning Wylted. Furthermore, you need to stop dumping all blame on Ragnar when Whiteflame calls the shots no matter how much he wants to pull a David and deflect blame for the hard calls being made while he is the chief.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@ILikePie5
Why are you putting LIMITATIONS that hurt our ability to LIMIT the power of moderators?
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
The mods didn't abuse their power in banning Wylted. Furthermore, you need to stop dumping all blame on Ragnar when Whiteflame calls the shots no matter how much he wants to pull a David and deflect blame for the hard calls being made while he is the chief.
That’s irrelevant to the effort of having something in the books.

Why are you putting LIMITATIONS that hurt our ability to LIMIT the power of moderators?
To prevent abuse?
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,269
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@ILikePie5
Why are you putting LIMITATIONS that hurt our ability to LIMIT the power of moderators?
To prevent abuse?
If there was no cool down at all 10 people could cripple the site with a constant impeachment battle even though there is no chance of removal.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
If there was no cool down at all 10 people could cripple the site with a constant impeachment battle even though there is no chance of removal.
I couldn’t tell if this was a criticism of me or RM, but I’ll respond anyways.

I believe there’s a provision that says a mod cannot be “impeached” in 6 months if the vote to remove fails. Also, you need people to sign your petition. If it’s for a dumb reason, then people aren’t going to support it. This means there will be no vote.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,269
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@ILikePie5
Yes, that provision was under the limitations section which RM complained about.

The only reason 10 people sounds hard to do is because you're used to a nearly dead forum. On other forums you could easily gather 10  people who will swear the earth is flat. You may want to add another limitation that the people who sign a petition have a 24 month cooldown before they can sign another if the removal fails.
Barney
Barney's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 3,466
5
9
10
Barney's avatar
Barney
5
9
10
-->
@ILikePie5
After seeing the mods engage in conduct that blatantly abuses their power
By this do you mean banning Incel-chud for doxing? You've been complaining about that a lot, but I figure it's best to doublecheck.

Anyways, your document is well laid out. There's some nitpicky misunderstandings (Michael is the only one who can assign or remove moderator powers, not the head mod), but those are easily remedied. I don't like the amount of red tape in it (precisely this many hours, between precisely these hours; and spend up to a week asking people if they really made forum posts adding their names to a petition). As moderators are members of the site, I am not sure why they would be barred from voting. I like the spirit of the thread limit rule, but trust me, you set a rule like that, and someone will make several additional threads in protest against their freedom of speech being stolen.

I more strongly disagree with this: "Any official moderation acts by a removed moderator shall be null and void." Take me for example. Who do you imagine would put in the time to unban the many spambots I get rid of? And for what benefit? ... Not even getting into the coding challenges, of archiving instead of deleting their spam posts so that they can be restored.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
The only reason 10 people sounds hard to do is because you're used to a nearly dead forum. On other forums you could easily gather 10  people who will swear the earth is flat. You may want to add another limitation that the people who sign a petition have a 24 month cooldown before they can sign another if the removal fails.

I created the MEEP with respect to the site. 10 seemed like a reasonable number for this site. I completely disagree with the 24 month cooldown. That’s just an outrageous amount of time lol.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Barney
By this do you mean banning Incel-chud for doxing? You've been complaining about that a lot, but I figure it's best to doublecheck.
Various times.

Anyways, your document is well laid out. There's some nitpicky misunderstandings (Michael is the only one who can assign or remove moderator powers, not the head mod), but those are easily remedied. I don't like the amount of red tape in it (precisely this many hours, between precisely these hours; and spend up to a week asking people if they really made forum posts adding their names to a petition).
If you just want a vote that’s fine with me. I just added it with the mods in mind. I think specifics are important, and I would argue a lot of people agree with me.

As moderators are members of the site, I am not sure why they would be barred from voting.
I thought I put a provision where the mod in question can still vote, but other mods cannot. This was done to prevent a conflict of interest.

I like the spirit of the thread limit rule, but trust me, you set a rule like that, and someone will make several additional threads in protest against their freedom of speech being stolen.
Ok, we can make it unlimited. I don’t mind.

I more strongly disagree with this: "Any official moderation acts by a removed moderator shall be null and void." Take me for example. Who do you imagine would put in the time to unban the many spambots I get rid of? And for what benefit? ... Not even getting into the coding challenges, of archiving instead of deleting their spam posts so that they can be restored.
You misunderstood what I meant. As soon a mod is removed, any mod actions they take are null and void (mainly put in cause it will take time to remove mod powers). I will make it more clear
Barney
Barney's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 3,466
5
9
10
Barney's avatar
Barney
5
9
10
-->
@ILikePie5
By this do you mean banning Incel-chud for doxing? You've been complaining about that a lot, but I figure it's best to doublecheck.
Various times.
By all means elaborate. Keeping your evidence a secret from everyone, is perhaps the worst way to argue anything.

zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,193
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Barney
@ILikePie5
Don't quite see the need for serious pseudo political parodying.

Simply as an exercise in political parodying, then just fine. 

Have a nice day y'all.


ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Barney
By all means elaborate. Keeping your evidence a secret from everyone, is perhaps the worst way to argue anything.
Well let’s see. There was the 1st Wylted ban. There was the RM ban. BrotherDThomas ban, etc.

If you’re gonna vote against it, by all means do. I have like 10 other people who are leaning towards voted yes on the MEEP
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@zedvictor4
I mean I’d hope that if a mod bans me unfairly, there is a process for removal that the people can support.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,193
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@ILikePie5
As far as I am concerned, the non-seriousness of this communication medium, simply dictates that it's best not to say any thing too stupid that can be deemed to be offensive.


Nonetheless:

So we introduce moderators to moderate the moderators etc?

Ultimately someone has to make a decision....Otherwise the anarchy of over-moderation ensues.
Barney
Barney's avatar
Debates: 53
Posts: 3,466
5
9
10
Barney's avatar
Barney
5
9
10
-->
@ILikePie5
11/17/2021
Moderator: Joint Decision

BrotherD.Thomas been banned for 90 days for proselytizing a hate group, to include setting his avatar to a burning cross in representation of that mission.
Glad to have such a clear view of what you consider corruption.

While I'm looking forward to our upcoming debate, I don't foresee there being any continued benefit to trying to speak to you outside of that medium.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Barney
Glad to have such a clear view of what you consider corruption.
I mean you’re just proving my point, but okie

While I'm looking forward to our upcoming debate, I don't foresee there being any continued benefit to trying to speak to you outside of that medium.
I don’t plan on debating for the foreseeable future. And I’m glad you’ll stop commenting. This thread was meant for constructive criticism.
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
If the members are going to be allowed to vote for president then he the membership should be allowed to vote to remove a moderator that does nothing. Or a moderator that does things they shouldn't. They're allowing members to get away with a lot of s*** here and it's because of the mods. They are in general super lazy and don't want to do anything especially if they like the member that you're complaining about. Even though a mod admitted those members were out of line they still did nothing. And as soon as information about the ROs got out for the membership to use them, they changed the rules on it without any kind of it vote. I think there should be term limits for the mod positions. Knowing once they're in they're in forever they get entitled.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,269
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@ILikePie5
The only reason 10 people sounds hard to do is because you're used to a nearly dead forum. On other forums you could easily gather 10  people who will swear the earth is flat. You may want to add another limitation that the people who sign a petition have a 24 month cooldown before they can sign another if the removal fails.

I created the MEEP with respect to the site. 10 seemed like a reasonable number for this site.
So you're pretty sure this site won't see an increase in popularity huh?
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
So you're pretty sure this site won't see an increase in popularity huh?
I don’t see what difference it makes. The vote at the end is what matters. And the same moderator cannot be petitioned against for 6 months if the vote fails. There won’t be a perpetual of petitions.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,269
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@ILikePie5
So you're pretty sure this site won't see an increase in popularity huh?
I don’t see what difference it makes. The vote at the end is what matters. And the same moderator cannot be petitioned against for 6 months if the vote fails. There won’t be a perpetual of petitions.
As written when I read it, No moderator can be impeached during the cooldown.

Suppose 10 people support a controversial action of a moderator, and to protect that moderator they launch a petition against any other moderator simply to trigger the cooldown?
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
So you're pretty sure this site won't see an increase in popularity huh?
Well considering the number of years that we've posted here and that the new members really haven't increased in any significant way I don't think that'll happen in the next year or two. But the whole point is if it did that that number could be changed because that's how these things work.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,322
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
As written when I read it, No moderator can be impeached during the cooldown.

Suppose 10 people support a controversial action of a moderator, and to protect that moderator they launch a petition against any other moderator simply to trigger the cooldown?
Ya I see what you’re saying but that’s not what I intended. What I meant is if the final vote fails, that mod is immune for 6 months. Another mod can still be petitioned.

Bad faith attempts by a mod to be immune for 6 months, I’d argue, wouldn’t get the 10 signatories. And even if they did, that in itself would be a gross misuse of their power.
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,204
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
I don't know what any of this is about. I don't have any problems with the site. I say what ever I want and no one cares. If its about doxing, well I am easy enough to find. Fuck with me at your own risk, if you can find me, I can find you.  I harbor no hate for anyone no matter how insulting condescending and rude they are on this site, aint no shortage of that. LOL
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,269
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@sadolite
Fuck with me at your own risk, if you can find me, I can find you. 
That is the statement of someone who is unfamiliar with military science. For the last three thousand years or so the person/group who spots the other before they are spotted is probably going to win.

It's a pretty high bar to get someone on the internet so angry that they really want to come for you, but if they do they have an enormous advantage.
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,204
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
I already delt with this shit before on Debate.org. Some jackass called my home phone and I traced it back directly to his home address within 3 minutes. Like I said, fuck with me and I will add anyone else at your own risk. You have no idea who you are dealing with or what they are capable of. Internet courage till you come face to face. Just friendly advice for the internet cowards of the world who think they are anonymous and untraceable. Your IP address can be traced right to you and your location for $50.00. That's right, all that stands between you and some deranged psychotic killer that you pissed off on the internet is $50.00.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,269
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@sadolite
I already delt with this shit before on Debate.org. Some jackass called my home phone and I traced it back directly to his home address within 3 minutes.
The danger would be the people who don't call you to tell you how angry they are, they just watch you for a while and shoot you with a big scope.

Now I admit that this is very rare, it constantly amazes me that only one president died like that. I suppose it takes a special kind of mental problem to stay that angry, and that mental problem makes planning and the patience it requires difficult.

Just friendly advice for the internet cowards of the world who think they are anonymous and untraceable. Your IP address can be traced right to you and your location for $50.00. That's right, all that stands between you and some deranged psychotic killer that you pissed off on the internet is $50.00.
There are people who know quite a lot about technology and what is and is not possible. This only reinforces the "pearl is too shallow for torpedo" vibe I'm getting from you.
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,204
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
The only vibe you are getting is you are not anonymous and you fuck with people at your own risk. 
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,269
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@sadolite
Alrighty then....