My latest moral argument.

Author: secularmerlin

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#31
TheMorningsStar
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@secularmerlin
It's like talking to a brick wall...

This statement of yours,
The word wrong can only be used subjectively.
presupposes moral relativism. The fact that you can't see that is a problem.

I'm done. This conversation is pointless at this moment.
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#32
secularmerlin
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@TheMorningsStar
I am not proposing anything.

Standards are dependent upon some subject to hold them. The identity of the subject is unimportant.

Once a standard is accepted you can make objective statements based on the standard. It objectively wrong to move a king as if it were a queen if we have agreed to play chess. This doesn't make the rules of chess other than subjective and arbitrary. 

Water boils at 100 and 212 degrees. Both these numbers are objectively accurate depending on the subjective standard we are using in our measurements (ignoring considerations like altitude, salinity etc and just for the purposes of example).
#33
Polytheist-Witch
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@TheMorningsStar
I find it really strange how popular moral relativism is in online forums when it is so unpopular outside of them (both the general public and the academics have majority view of moral realism). I mean, just because it is the majority view doesn't make it true, I know that, but just the fact that relativism is popular in online forums like this and basically nowhere else is just strange to me.
Atheist are way more honest about what they think on forums than they are in the real world because they know if they said that stuff to people's faces it would be rejected.
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#34
secularmerlin
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@Polytheist-Witch
Atheist or way more honest about what they think on forms than they are in the real world because they know if they said that stuff to people's faces it would be rejected.
I was actually discussing this with my colleagues this morning 
#35
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@Polytheist-Witch
I disagree with that characterization. The majority of PhD ethicists are atheists (only 17% are theists) and yet moral realism is the consensus (65% are moral-realists). Maybe it is the case that the majority of non-academic atheists just aren't as honest as the atheists on forums like these, but I really have to express skepticism to that idea.
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#36
secularmerlin
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@TheMorningsStar
No PhD ethicist can speak for me and I am not speaking for them. 

Perhaps you are using the word subjective differently than I am. If so it would be nice to know.
#37
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@TheMorningsStar
Think what you like I'm telling you atheists are honest about what they think on these forums then they are with the people they engage with on a daily basis. They would never look at a spouse or a parent or child who's a theist and say the things to that child or spouse whatever that they do here. They would never tell them they think they have a mental defect. They would never tell them they think they're immoral and evil. Yet that's exactly what they do when they come here. Of course according to the atheist that posts here not a single theist that they're friends with discusses religion with them because theists don't really believe anything they say. 
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#38
secularmerlin
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@Polytheist-Witch
They would never tell them they think they have a mental defect. They would never tell them they think they're immoral and evil.
I have never done as you accuse here. In fact the while point of this thread is that I am unconcerned with morality, good and evil.
#39
TheMorningsStar
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@Polytheist-Witch
Oh, I agree that most atheists wouldn't speak the way many here do, but I wonder if it is moreso that atheists that are more likely to speak in such a way are the types to seek online forums rather than it being that most atheists just don't speak their mind. I actually think it would be an interesting study if someone could figure out how to objectively do one on the topic.
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#40
secularmerlin
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@TheMorningsStar
Some atheists risk real harm to their relationships or even real bodily harm when they "come out" I do not judge them for being reticent to discuss their views under these circumstances. 

#41
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@secularmerlin
Which would mean the 'scientific survey' would have to have some way of ensuring that participants would be anonymous. Of course, the issue would then be finding out how to reach out to the closeted atheists for the survey (same exact issue exists with pagans).
#42
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@Polytheist-Witch
@TheMorningsStar
Eh, just disregarding Isms,
It's common of people to not be so open with their thoughts and beliefs,
'Necessary for harmony, 'normal appearance.

Online is also more. . . Theoretical sphere, also pretend, a game in which one's face is masked, consequences lessened.
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#43
secularmerlin
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@TheMorningsStar
The same issue exists for many marginalized groups and this marginalization is often justified with religious beliefs. Atheists and homosexuals are both often considered "evil" by majority consensus religious reasoning. May I suggest that a true separation of church and state might make your proposed study more feasible. 
#44
Polytheist-Witch
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Lots of excuses.
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#45
secularmerlin
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@Polytheist-Witch
Charming and even tempered as always. Part of me missed you poly. Not a sane or rational part but a part.
#46
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@secularmerlin
There's a reason I'm not friends with atheist in the real world. And you guys justify that reasoning every single day that I come here and read posts.
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#47
secularmerlin
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@Polytheist-Witch
How can you be so sure? Is that some you ask everyone you meet? Knowing your rabid hatred I'm not sure why you would expect honesty from your friends. Also I would be your friend if you would have me.
#48
TheMorningsStar
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@Polytheist-Witch
I do find it interesting how many prominent polytheist academics (Dillon for example) and prominent pagan voices online (like Ocean Keltoi) are trying to create bridges with the atheist community while you seem to hold the opposite view of things. Personally, my best friend is an atheist and I have more experience getting along with atheists irl than theists (though I also find I get along with certain theists than atheists in certain forums).

Just an interesting observation.
#49
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@TheMorningsStar
Because atheists are liars. I basically found out they lied to me constantly. Some lie about whether or not the really atheist. And some lie and say that they respect me as a person even though they don't. It's impossible for them to respect theists. Any theist is free to believe I'm not correct. But the atheist of encountered online to open my eyes to exactly what they think and feel. They only tolerate having theists in their life cuz they really have no choice cuz there's more of us than them. And I believe the only reason the pagan community does that is because politically pagans tend to be more like atheists than monotheists. 
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#50
secularmerlin
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@Polytheist-Witch
I'm curious to know why you think I don't respect you. I've always treated you as an equal and with the same consideration as any other interlocutor. 
#51
TheMorningsStar
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@Polytheist-Witch
 And I believe the only reason the pagan community does that is because politically pagans tend to be more like atheists than monotheists. 
Won't completely deny that. Too many pagans are either far-left progressives or are racist nationalists. Hardly any are moderates or centrists (and that makes it hard for centrists, like me, to find groups to join and get along with).

I do think, however, that there is some pessimism here. I think most atheists are more apatheistic, it is just that the vocal ones tend to spoil the perception of the whole group (what I suspect to be a vocal minority). Maybe it is moreso the live and let live culture of where I am from though and that in other places it really is as bad as you say, I don't know.
#52
SkepticalOne
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@secularmerlin
I don't understand something as "morality" if its not built on human well-being. That's all I'm saying.


#53
TheMorningsStar
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@SkepticalOne
iirc you are a moral relativist, right? Which metaethical theory do you subscribe to?
#54
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@Polytheist-Witch
So, in your view who is more likely to be a rational person, an ardent Theist or an ardent atheist?

To me, it is clear. Perhaps to you the lines are blurry. The reason people do not say that IRL is that believe it or not cancel culture doesn't only favour left wing, secular positions.
#55
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@RationalMadman
Listen I only have met very few irrational people. What are you considering to be the criteria.
#56
ADreamOfLiberty
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@secularmerlin
Didn't read thread, just responding to OP:

I don't give a fig about morality. I only want to promote human wellbeing and protect the public health. In any case where morality does not support these two considerations I do not support morality and in any case where morality is in opposition to these two considerations I oppose morality. 

Questions, comments and criticisms welcome. 
Morality is a code of behavior derived from values, to list off values and then say "despite morality" is like adding cinnamon despite taste.

If your values are wellbeing and public health, then a morality is implied by that.

If you mean to say the values you listed supersede all your other values or any value anyone else may hold... congratulations you are now at level 0 of the ethics tech tree. Everybody from Hitler to mother Theresa has values and pursues them.
#57
zedvictor4
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@secularmerlin
For sure, everything is subjective.

Even the notion of objectivity is subjective, or more correctly, data subject to the same processes of internal manipulation.

It's not that morals are independent and definitive objects that float about and occasionally bump you on the head.

They are created inside your head....And disinterested or not you will still possess some data sequences that resemble what is loosely regarded as morality.

I can probably suggest a hundred things, that when subjected to your internal moral scrutiny, you would decline to do in the shopping mall.


A discussion for the sake of it really.....Which is fine and dandy.

   
#58
TheMorningsStar
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Is everyone on this site a moral relativist? What arguments have made it so popular here or is it just coincidence?
#59
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheMorningsStar
Is everyone on this site a moral relativist? What arguments have made it so popular here or is it just coincidence?
I would advertise my morality as objective. Everything but axioms are relative to something, normally when one says "moral relativist" they mean morals relative to whims. Morals that are not relative to values is not defined.
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#60
secularmerlin
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@SkepticalOne
I don't understand something as "morality" if its not built on human well-being. That's all I'm saying.
Well I've gotten enough pushback (particularly from theists and particularly excusing the probably fictional actions of their probably fictional god(s)) over the years that I've grown tired of arguing about what morality is and just want to promote the things that are good for us.