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Tarik
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@3RU7AL
this does not appear to be the case
Why, because of the people that double-parked in front of a fire-hydrant? No one is absolved from sin, but that doesn’t make every sinner an immoral person that’s destined for hell.
Tarik
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@Double_R
Hell is perhaps the most amoral concept imaginable. 
Not if immoral people are going there, sounds like justice to me.
3RU7AL
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@Tarik
this does not appear to be the case
Why, because of the people that double-parked in front of a fire-hydrant? No one is absolved from sin, but that doesn’t make every sinner an immoral person that’s destined for hell.
trusting jesus to save you from hell on your deathbed does not make you a moral person
Tarik
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@3RU7AL
trusting jesus to save you from hell on your deathbed does not make you a moral person
I never said it did.
3RU7AL
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@Tarik
i hope you like spending a whole lot of time with convicted felons (in heaven)

Christians as a whole make up about two-thirds of the inmate population in the facilities. Protestants are seen, on average, as comprising 51% of the inmate population, Catholics 15% and other Christian groups less than 2%. [**]
3RU7AL
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@Tarik
trusting jesus to save you from hell on your deathbed does not make you a moral person
I never said it did.
how does one get into heaven ?
Tarik
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@3RU7AL
Christians as a whole make up about two-thirds of the inmate population in the facilities. Protestants are seen, on average, as comprising 51% of the inmate population, Catholics 15% and other Christian groups less than 2%. [**]
How about you give me a statistic for all the inmates convicted for crimes they didn’t commit or a statistic for people getting away with crimes they did commit, at some point somebody is gonna have to explain why blacks that make up less then half the U.S. population makes up more than half the U.S. prison population, so don’t get fooled by this fluff, because the “justice system” is far from justice.
Double_R
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@Tradesecret
It is impossible to clarify your questions because it ignores God's character. Start there and come back to the other points.  After all, God is holy and God is good. That is my starting point.
If you don’t believe these are qualities of God then my statement does not pertain to you. Why is that so difficult? Do you think you’re the only member here?

Hence, every other attribute will be subservient to this character. You want to start with power and then read God's character into it as a logical conclusion.  Yet the bible starts in reverse. 
This is complete nonsense. Assessing someone’s character necessarily begins by assessing their circumstances and the power they have over them. There is a reason we expect billionaires to do good things while we don’t begrudge homeless people who don’t donate to charity. There is a reason we would jail someone for making a bomb threat, but then release them if we later learned that they made the threat with a gun to their head. It’s all about the power you have over your situation, and God has total control so for him it’s as easy as it gets.

Oh and BTW, instead of complaining about me strawmanning you, how about you just make your position clear so that we can move on? Let’s try this again…

Second, here’s your opportunity to fix it. Tell me which of the following statements is true:

A) God is not all powerful
B) God is not all knowing
C) God is not the creator of everything

Looking forward to your clarification.
3RU7AL
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@Double_R
Oh and BTW, instead of complaining about me strawmanning you, how about you just make your position clear so that we can move on? Let’s try this again…
+ 1
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@Tarik
Christians as a whole make up about two-thirds of the inmate population in the facilities. Protestants are seen, on average, as comprising 51% of the inmate population, Catholics 15% and other Christian groups less than 2%. [**]
How about you give me a statistic for all the inmates convicted for crimes they didn’t commit or a statistic for people getting away with crimes they did commit, at some point somebody is gonna have to explain why blacks that make up less then half the U.S. population makes up more than half the U.S. prison population, so don’t get fooled by this fluff, because the “justice system” is far from justice.
even if the number is half of the 68% estimate, that's still a lot of convicts

how many christians are admitted into heaven ?
Tarik
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@3RU7AL
even if the number is half of the 68% estimate, that's still a lot of convicts
Your point? If most of the convicts are in prison for crimes they didn’t commit it says more about the system then it does about the convicts.
Polytheist-Witch
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@Tarik
All sin is is a crime against your God. If you don't worship that God you cannot sin. The Jews didn't feel that their God's rules apply to anyone but them I have no idea why Christians think they do, wait maybe it's because Christians basically tried to steal that God from the Jews.
3RU7AL
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@Tarik
Your point? If most of the convicts are in prison for crimes they didn’t commit it says more about the system then it does about the convicts.
my point is...

how exactly do you believe someone qualifies to get into heaven ?
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@Polytheist-Witch
wait maybe it's because Christians basically tried to steal that God from the Jews.
KA-BOOM
Tarik
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@Polytheist-Witch
The Jews didn't feel that their God's rules apply to anyone but them I have no idea why Christians think they do wait maybe it's because Christians basically tried to steal that God from the Jews.
Who said anything about Jews?
Tarik
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@3RU7AL
my point is...

how exactly do you believe someone qualifies to get into heaven ?
That’s not a point it’s a question and quite honestly I’m not sure. I’m not God.

3RU7AL
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@Tarik
That’s not a point it’s a question and quite honestly I’m not sure. I’m not God.
do you believe you are going to heaven and if you do, why ?
Tarik
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@3RU7AL
do you believe you are going to heaven and if you do, why ?

quite honestly I’m not sure. I’m not God.
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@Tarik
do you believe you are going to heaven and if you do, why ?
quite honestly I’m not sure. I’m not God.
ok,

but somehow you're pretty sure "good people" go to heaven ?

what makes you think this ?
Tarik
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@3RU7AL
what makes you think this ?
Because that makes the most sense.
3RU7AL
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@Tarik
what makes you think this ?
Because that makes the most sense.
that sounds reasonable

but if nobody (human)knows who qualifies and who misses-the-mark, what practical use is this "intuition" ?
Tarik
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@3RU7AL
but if nobody (human)knows who qualifies and who misses-the-mark, what practical use is this "intuition" ?
The possibility of being right.
Polytheist-Witch
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@Tarik
Who said anything about Jews?
Do you even understand the background of Christianity or the Old Testament where it comes from because obviously you don't. 

  The possibility of being right
Fire insurance.
Tarik
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@Polytheist-Witch
Do you even understand the background of Christianity or the Old Testament where it comes from because obviously you don't. 
Regardless it’s not pertinent to the discussion.
3RU7AL
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@Tarik
but if nobody (human)knows who qualifies and who misses-the-mark, what practical use is this "intuition" ?
The possibility of being right.
what are your chances of picking the wrong god(s) (or even the wrong denomination) ?

maybe one in 10,000 ?

are you familiar with the concept of "Pascal's Mugging" (it's the logical consequence of "Pascal's Wager")

Polytheist-Witch
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@Tarik
So you believe Jesus is a stand alone entity and that father in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit Trinity thing doesn't exist.
Athias
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@3RU7AL
it would only be "inconsistent" iff one tried to simultaneously maintain that only humans can be "morally culpable"

all non-human actors are technically "amoral", regardless of their activity and (apparent) motive
The portion which I've emboldened is key, and a statement I do not reject. Maintaining your description of amorality, would it not be inconsistent with said description to claim OOC is responsible for itemized list of bad outcomes, events, phenomena, etc. whether through inaction or direct cause, and therefore as a result, OOC would be characterized as "amoral"?


3RU7AL
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@Athias
The portion which I've emboldened is key, and a statement I do not reject. Maintaining your description of amorality, would it not be inconsistent with said description to claim OOC is responsible for itemized list of bad outcomes, events, phenomena, etc. whether through inaction or direct cause, and therefore as a result, OOC would be characterized as "amoral"?
personally speaking, someone (a being) who commits an equal number of, and equal measure of "moral" and "immoral" acts could still be considered "amoral"
Athias
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@Double_R
Because the level of “sufficient information” you need to proceed means you are either need help or are not trying to have a good faith productive conversation.
Your false dichotomies won't work either. This is not about a "good faith" productive conversation. This is about your capacity to substantiate that which you state. I'm not asking for sources; I'm asking for reason.

The point I was making was about the logical impossibility of God having the qualities often prescribed to him and still being anything other than amoral given the reality we can clearly observe.
And what reality is that? You make too many assumptions.

There are serious ways to deal with that if you disagree; you can for example claim that God does not have all of those qualities, or you can show how those qualities logically square to the world we observe. You responded by asking me to explain what “bad” is and why I would apply that to my example of child sex trafficking rings.
Your argument is as follows:

P1. God is omniscient and omnipotent.
P2. Bad things like child rape, and malicious murders occur.
P3. God is either responsible for the occurrence of child rape and malicious murders (i.e. being the cause of all events), or indirectly responsible through inaction.
C. Therefore God is amoral.

I've demanded you first and foremost define "amorality." I then requested that you to delineate the moral framework on which you base characterizations such as "good" and "bad." After that, I demanded that you explain the reason this moral framework was the only one worth considering. Furthermore, I requested that you demonstrate how the application of bad "voids" or "nullifies" said moral framework. And finally, I demanded that you demonstrate how God's action or inaction is consistent with your application of descriptions such as "good" and "bad." I ask these things because making such descriptions explicit ARE CRITICAL TO YOUR ARGUMENT.

What morality is and how we apply it is certainly a philosophical conversation worth having and one where there is much disagreement. But to go down that path in this conversation along with the litany of other things you asked for shows that you aren’t serious,
To the contrary, it shows that I'M VERY SERIOUS. You maintain that if God existed, God would be amoral. So of course the subject of morality will warrant focus.

this is more like an attempt to just wear me down by making me explain every simple concept to you while you pretend not to understand.
Your paranoia is just a projection. I could give a fudge about what's on your itemized list of "Bad Things," whether it be child rape (another diversionary tactic) or choking bunnies. You affirmed a proposition; the affirmation of this proposition creates an onus; I demanded clarification, i.e. make explicit the use of certain descriptives such as "amoral" and "bad." You refuse, and instead derail and divert the conversation away from your onus, i.e. my mental stability/character (I wonder why that is?) while attempting to create a referendum on my capacity to maintain a "good faith" conversation. Your antics will not work with me.

Not worth my time.
The only one who has wasted their time is I. Either substantiate your affirmation, or have a nice day.




Athias
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@3RU7AL
personally speaking, someone (a being) who commits an equal number of, and equal measure of "moral" and "immoral" acts could still be considered "amoral"
How?