Experience and Testimony is Evidence, Reid's Principle of Credulity applied to god(s) existence

Author: TheMorningsStar

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INTRODUCTION
Often we find atheists and, to a lesser extent, agnostics in the online debate sphere demand that the verification principle is the only rational way of establishing whether or not god(s) exist. I would like to counter that idea with an argument I think is both the most sound argument for god while also being one of the weakest, the argument that people have experienced god(s).

I know that when this is first seen that many people will be quick to judge that it is a weak argument, but I hope that we can take the time to go over the premises first. This argument can be broken down, ultimately, into two parts. Part One is establishing that using Reid's Principle of Credulity is rational. Part Two is showing short and to the point, applying it to god(s). I will also preemptively address a common criticism of the argument in a Part Three.

PART ONE
“In absence of counter-evidence — we should believe that things are as they seem to be.” - Richard Swinburne

The above quote comes from the philosopher Richard Swinburne, one of the main proponents of the argument for god from Reid's Principle of Credulity. It helps outline what, precisely, the principle is. It helps with establishing the position that one should tentatively hold to. This is why, despite thinking the argument is sound, I hold that it is a weak argument for the existence of god(s), as when it stands on its own any proper counter-evidence defeats it. This is also why I feel the argument is useful, as it forces the atheist and the agnostic to have to provide counter-evidence. No longer would the defense of "lack of belief due to no evidence" be justified. One of the strengths of the argument, in my mind, is that we all already make use of this principle in our day-to-day lives, even if we aren't really aware of it.

In this part I will go over three different premises and how they all lead to the principle's validation.

P1) Your senses tend to be accurate.
P2) You are honest more often than you are dishonest.
C1) If you claimed to have experienced X then, absent counter-evidence, you likely had a true experience of X.
P3) There is no justification that the above is not universal.
C2) If someone claims to have experienced X then, absent counter-evidence, they likely had a true experience of X.

The strength of this argument is that denial of P1 or P2 will lead to different issues while P3's denial requires the use of the special pleading fallacy. To avoid fallacious logic and avoid logical traps you must accept all three premises, which means accepting the conclusion of the argument. To explain,

Rejection of P1 leads to solipsism, as if your senses tend to be inaccurate or are only accurate half the time then you will never be justified believing anything you observe is true. How, then, can you hold any justified beliefs about the external world? You cannot, as any piece of evidence cannot be justifiably believed.
As such, if you wish to avoid solipsism you must accept P1. This means that your senses tend to be accurate, which results in the conclusion that you should believe your senses unless you have a justified reason to doubt (counter-evidence).

Rejection of P2 also is a trap. If you reject P2 you must either choose the view that you are dishonest more often than you are honest or that you are dishonest and honest an equal amount.
If you reject it by claiming "you are dishonest more than you are honest" then it leads to the conclusion that we cannot trust that any statement you make is true without corroborating evidence, but that includes your statement that "you are dishonest more than you are honest." Since we cannot trust that that statement was made honestly, it is justified to think that you do not actually believe that "you are dishonest more than you are honest".
Even claiming to be honest and dishonest evenly does not avoid this issue, as it means we must suspend judgement on any statement you make until there is reason to accept, including whether you are honest and dishonest evenly.
We can have a thought experiment as well, is this a case you are being honest or dishonest? If dishonest, then we now know that you are either honest more or less often than dishonest, which goes back to the previous point where we end up unjustified thinking that you are dishonest more than you are honest. Since that is justified and the thought experiment is that your statement about being honest and dishonest evenly is false, that means we can conclude that you are, in fact, honest more often than dishonest (and that this dishonesty happens to just be an example of the minority of statements you make).
If, in our thought experiment, we assume that the statement is held in true belief then it leads to the conclusion that (absent corroborating evidence) we are unjustified in actually believing it is held in true belief.
This means that the only justified view is that, regardless of what you say, you actually accept P2.
Furthermore, rejecting P2 is not at all pragmatic when it comes to living your daily life. If you reject P2 and do not live your life as if you reject it, it raises doubts on if you actually reject P2. As people tend to live pragmatic lives, then unless we have corroborating evidence, we are yet again justified in thinking that you actually accept P2 regardless of what you say.
A consequence of P2 is that what you say should be believed to have been said with honesty unless we have reason to believe otherwise (counter-evidence).

So, since your senses tend to be accurate (which results in the conclusion that you should believe your senses) and you tend to be honest (which means we should trust your statements to be made honestly unless we have reason to believe otherwise), we can conclude that "If you claimed to have experienced X then, absent counter-evidence, you likely had a true experience of X".

Since we cannot make use of the special pleading fallacy to say that this is somehow a unique characteristic of you, we must extend this universally. This means that we can conclude that "If someone claims to have experienced X then, absent counter-evidence, they likely had a true experience of X".

This means we have validated Reid's Principle of Credulity.

PART TWO
This is a short segment that has one premise that should be uncontroversial,

P4) People have claimed to have had an experience of god(s).
C3) Absent of counter-evidence, these people likely had a true experience of god(s).

If part 1 is sound and P4 is true, then C3 must be true. From here it is a question on if the atheist or agnostic can provide counter-evidence. If none can be provided then the logical conclusion is that we should tentatively hold to theism as true.

PART THREE
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan

The above quote from Carl Sagan is not uncommon in the online religious debate sphere, where the god claim is often called an extraordinary claim. A common rejection I have seen to the above is that Reid's Principle of Credulity might be evidence, but it isn't extraordinary evidence and thus cannot be used to argue for the existence of god(s) (as the god claim is labeled as extraordinary).

I would contest that this argument actually works. In fact, I believe that in order to justify the view that the god claim is an extraordinary one would require you to provide evidence/reasoning that would already act as the counter-evidence that the argument already accounts for. To explain, in order to say a claim is extraordinary rather than ordinary you must either draw the line arbitrarily (which makes the label unjustified), appeal to something internal to the claim that makes it extraordinary, or appeal to something external to the claim that makes it extraordinary.
I would argue that you cannot point to something internal to the claim that makes it extraordinary. This is because if the justification was internal to the claim, then the context of when or where the claim is made does not change whether it is ordinary or extraordinary. This just is not the case, however. For example, if I say I will be visiting South Korea in a few days and will be back in just over a week that is an ordinary claim today, but 200 years ago that would be extraordinary. Another example, let's say that I saw a floating city. Extraordinary claim, right? But let's say the same exact claim was made in a stereotypical high fantasy world, not that extraordinary anymore.
What this means is that justification for the label "extraordinary claim" can only be something outside of the claim itself. Whatever you appeal to would constitute evidence that said claim is false or unlikely. This means that it isn't that the claim is extraordinary, it is just that the claim already has counter-evidence. In order to justify the label of a claim being extraordinary you will need to provide that counter-evidence, but in doing so you are already operating in-line with the argument (as it only concludes that the claim should be held in absence of counter-evidence).

I want to address one more quote by Carl Sagan as well,
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - Carl Sagan

This is one I absolutely agree with. Absence of evidence alone is not evidence of absence unless you can construct a proper modus tollens. This means that, unless you provide a sound modus tollens, you cannot appeal to "lack of evidence" (using whatever criteria you give as to what evidence is) as being justification for the claim being an extraordinary one. Lack of evidence is not counter-evidence, it is only a lack.

CONCLUSION
With this argument it ends up with the atheist or agnostic needing to now provide justification for their position in the debate. Counter-evidence needs to be provided or else theism is rationally concluded as true (tentatively). Not only must counter-evidence be provided, but they also must defend against arguments that it is not, in fact, counter-evidence. That is the strength of this argument, it makes it so no longer is the theist playing defense but the atheist and agnostic is.

I know this argument will be unconvincing to most people, but it is important to remember that an argument can both be sound and also be unconvincing. We are not purely rational beings after all.
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Where the problem lies is for some reason atheists think that religion should be debated via science even though religion has nothing to do with science. Myth is not fact plain and simple, that doesn't mean it's not true. Religion is an emotional based experience therefore it falls under the realm of other emotional experiences or like relationships with other people. If you say you love your wife nobody's going to tell you to produce scientific evidence that you love your wife. If you say you believe in gods no one's going to present scientific evidence that you believe in gods because it's a relationship with a being whether somebody thinks that being exists or not. And just like a relationship where dating eventually leads to you coming to a knowledge of how that other person feels about you, beginning to engage in a religious or spiritual practice eventually will lead you to either disengage from that practice or reach a point where you feel the gods exist. And just like when someone says I love my wife because other people have experienced that they accept that as enough so just like if someone were to say I believe in gods I accept that because I myself have experienced that. I'm not sure why one is acceptable and one isn't other than atheist simply don't believe that there is somebody else on the other end of that relationship. But for the believer or the practitioner they have full faith in that other being.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Where the problem lies is for some reason atheists think that religion should be debated via science even though religion has nothing to do with science.
I agree. So often do atheists online hold to logical positivism, a self-defeating epistemological view that hasn't had acceptance in mainstream philosophy for decades.

That is also why I think the argument I presented is a good one, because despite not giving verifiable evidence in the way the logical positivist might want, the only premises that can be denied lead to different issues if denied. If someone is willing to deny them, then it is a sign that either they are a solipsist (in which case there are other issues) or they are claiming that they, themselves, cannot be trusted (in which case their opinions are worthless).

It doesn't get to a definitive result of theism, but it doesn't need to.
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@TheMorningsStar


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TheMorningsStar,

If you don't mind, I have to make an obvious entity that you forgot about to deduce your initial post down to its irreducible primary for the reader that does believe in a god concept. 

Therefore, which one of the God concepts that are listed below is the reader referring too, because it does matter?

Azura Mazda, Angus, Belenos, Brigid, Dana, Lugh, Dagda, Epona, Allah Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Atehna, Demeter, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Gaia, Hades, Hekate, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Pan, Poseidon, Selene, Uranus, Zeus, Mathilde, Elves, Eostre, Frigg, Ganesh, Hretha, Saxnot, Shef, Shiva Thuno, Tir, Vishnu, Weyland, Woden, Yahweh, Alfar, Balder, Beyla, Bil, Bragi, Byggvir, Dagr, Disir, Eir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigga, Heimdall, Hel, Hoenir, Idunn, Jord, Lofn, Loki, Mon, Njord, Norns, Nott, Odin, Ran, Saga, Sif, Siofn, Skadi, Snotra, Sol, Syn, Ull, Thor, Tyr, Var, Vali, Vidar, Vor, Herne, Holda, Nehalennia, Nerthus, Endovelicus, Ataegina, Runesocesius, Bacchus, Ceres, Cupid, Diana, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune, Pluto, Plutus, Proserpina, Venus, Vesta, Vulcan, Attis, Cybele, El-Gabal, Isis, Mithras, Sol Invictus, Endovelicus, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bast, Bes, Geb, Hapi, Hathor, Heget, Horus, Imhotep, Isis, Khepry, Khnum, Maahes, Ma"at, Menhit, Mont, Naunet, Neith, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra, Sekhmnet, Sobek, Set, Tefnut, Thoth, An, Anshar, Anu, Apsu, Ashur, Damkina, Ea, Enki, Enlil, Ereshkigal, Nunurta, Hadad, Inanna, Ishtar, Kingu, Kishar, Marduk, Mummu, Nabu, Nammu, Nanna, Nergal, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Shamash, Sin, Tiamat, Utu, Mitra, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, Inari, Tengu, Izanami, Izanagi, Daikoku, Ebisu, Benzaiten, Bishamonten, Fukurokuju, Jurojin, Hotei, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Inti, Kon, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Manco Capac, Pachacamac and Zaramama, Vera.


Of course, I believe in my Christian serial killer Jesus the Christ as Yahweh God incarnate, praise!

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@TheMorningsStar

Does this apply to Angels existence also?
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@FLRW
Are there people that claim to have encountered angels? Yes.
Plug it in and we get the result Absent of counter-evidence, these people likely had a true experience of angels.
So, is there some sort of counter-evidence? If not, then I guess that means that we are justified in believing in angels as well.
If there is some sort of counter-evidence then that would mean that, in light of the counter evidence, we aren't justified in believing in angels.

________________________________________________________________

Of course, corroborating evidence can be given to strengthen the position (just like counter-evidence can refute it), and this is where I think things like the first cause argument work well in regards to god(s) existing.
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@the Witch

Where the problem lies is for some reason atheists think that religion should be debated via science even though religion has nothing to do with science.

Does not Witchcraft involve science? Are you saying the Witches of yore didn't use science for things such as healing?  Or is not Witchcraft a religion. Is astronomy a science?


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@TheMorningsStar
angel?

Which simply means messenger.
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@TheMorningsStar


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TheMorningsStar,

YOUR QUOTE ABOUT A GOD EXISTING: "..... and this is where I think things like the first cause argument work well in regards to god(s) existing."

Again, and simply put, which god are you referring too as shown in my post herewith: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7475/post-links/321662

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@Polytheist-Witch
@TheMorningsStar
“In absence of counter-evidence — we should believe that things are as they seem to be.” - Richard Swinburne
I have come up with an improved version of that principle :
“An appearance is probably true, unless there is good reason to doubt it.”
Key here is that ‘good reason to doubt’ is more general than 'counter-evidence'.

Claims should be judged not only on evidence, but also on background knowledge. Placing background knowledge in the evidence category usually implies there is counter-evidence, but it tends to be difficult to identify it as such.
A problem with relying on the absense of counter-evidence is : how does one establish that there isn’t any ? The problem with people is that they tend to be foolish : “I don’t know of any counter-evidence. Therefore, there is no counter-evidence.”
A good reason to doubt could be : There could be counter-evidence I don’t know about.

P1) Your senses tend to be accurate.
P2) You are honest more often than you are dishonest.
C1) If you claimed to have experienced X then, absent counter-evidence, you likely had a true experience of X.
P3) There is no justification that the above is not universal.
C2) If someone claims to have experienced X then, absent counter-evidence, they likely had a true experience of X.
I wondered why you started from personal observations (P1 and P2) to general observations (P3) i.s.o. starting with general observations. The reason turns out to be that the personal observations are easier to support.
C1 does not follow from the premises. 60% likely times 60% likely = 36% likely = 64% unlikely.
Morever, you have yet to establish a relation between senses and experience.
I have an alternative to P3, namely P3’ : There is no justification that the above is universal.
The argument is invalid. C2 does not follow from the premises.

Rejection of P1 leads to solipsism, as if your senses tend to be inaccurate or are only accurate half the time then you will never be justified believing anything you observe is true. How, then, can you hold any justified beliefs about the external world? You cannot, as any piece of evidence cannot be justifiably believed.
As such, if you wish to avoid solipsism you must accept P1. This means that your senses tend to be accurate, which results in the conclusion that you should believe your senses unless you have a justified reason to doubt (counter-evidence).
The reason to doubt needs to be good and good reason to doubt is not the same as counter-evidence.

Since we cannot make use of the special pleading fallacy to say that this is somehow a unique characteristic of you, we must extend this universally.[1] This means that we can conclude that "If someone claims to have experienced X then, absent counter-evidence, they likely had a true experience of X".
This means we have validated Reid's Principle of Credulity.[2]
[1] That is a non-sequitur.
[2] Not yet.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan [3]

The above quote from Carl Sagan is not uncommon in the online religious debate sphere, where the god claim is often called an extraordinary claim. A common rejection I have seen to the above is that Reid's Principle of Credulity might be evidence,[4] but it isn't extraordinary evidence and thus cannot be used to argue for the existence of god(s) (as the god claim is labeled as extraordinary).
[3] The claim being extraordinary would usually be a good reason to doubt it.
[4] Reid’s Principle of Credulity is not evidence. It is a guideline on how to draw conclusions from evidence.

What this means is that justification for the label "extraordinary claim" can only be something outside of the claim itself. Whatever you appeal to would constitute evidence that said claim is false or unlikely. This means that it isn't that the claim is extraordinary, it is just that the claim already has counter-evidence. In order to justify the label of a claim being extraordinary you will need to provide that counter-evidence, but in doing so you are already operating in-line with the argument (as it only concludes that the claim should be held in absence of counter-evidence).
Background knowledge can make a claim extraordinary. If you place that in the evidence category then Reids Principle rarely applies. To wannabe god-believers knowing there is counter-evidence is not helpful, so they usually prefer to remain ignorant of that fact.

I want to address one more quote by Carl Sagan as well,
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - Carl Sagan [5]

This is one I absolutely agree with. Absence of evidence alone is not evidence of absence unless you can construct a proper modus tollens. This means that, unless you provide a sound modus tollens, you cannot appeal to "lack of evidence" (using whatever criteria you give as to what evidence is) as being justification for the claim being an extraordinary one. Lack of evidence is not counter-evidence, it is only a lack. [6]
[5] The proper application in this topic is : “That I don’t know of any counter-evidence, does not imply none exists.”
[6] The reasoning would go like this :
P1) If X is true, I expect to see evidence of X
P2) I don’t see evidence of X
C) Therefore X is false.

The kind of god that is being argued about is often the kind one would expect more evidence of.

Where the problem lies is for some reason atheists think that religion should be debated via science even though religion has nothing to do with science.[7] Myth is not fact plain and simple, that doesn't mean it's not true.[8] Religion is an emotional based experience therefore it falls under the realm of other emotional experiences or like relationships with other people. If you say you love your wife nobody's going to tell you to produce scientific evidence that you love your wife.[9] If you say you believe in gods no one's going to present scientific evidence that you believe in gods because it's a relationship with a being whether somebody thinks that being exists or not.[10] [ . . . ]
[7] That is often the case with myths and fairy-tales.
[8] Religion is too general to be true or false. It depends on the specifics.
[9] If you say your wife exists, they probably won’t for ask evidence either.
[10] I doubt many skeptics dispute that religious people have a relationship with imaginary beings.

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The testimony numbers would show 
God reveals himself to people in prisons more then any other establishment 
And God reveals himself to people who are at " rock bottom " 

Sooooooooo. 
If one wants to " find " god. 
May i suggest  , Go directly to jail. 
 


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And Please do not forget. 
If anyone sees a god , ask it .
  WHAT RELIGIOUS GROUP SHOULD I BE IN.?
  WHAT RELIGIOUS  GROUP SHOULD I BE IN ? 
Reapat this over and over again. 
As this is all one has to know. 

Once god tells you this , join and continue. 

Or.
Or.

Just  join one you want to join. 
How very religious.  
 
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Looking for the link. 
Believing in god has something to do with being in a religious group. 
There is a link somewhere.  

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The appearance of magic is not magic. 

FLRW
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Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up." When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
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@Amoranemix
“An appearance is probably true, unless there is good reason to doubt it.”
Key here is that ‘good reason to doubt’ is more general than 'counter-evidence'.
I would argue that "good reason to doubt" would constitute counter-evidence, but I guess it is just how each phrase is interpreted by different people.

A problem with relying on the absense of counter-evidence is : how does one establish that there isn’t any ? The problem with people is that they tend to be foolish : “I don’t know of any counter-evidence. Therefore, there is no counter-evidence.”
I agree, but I emphasized that theism would be held tentatively for that very reason. If I am not aware of counter-evidence then I am justified in holding to a view of something and am rational in doing so. It isn't that "there is no counter-evidence anywhere", that isn't a premise in the argument (otherwise the conclusion wouldn't be to hold onto theism tentatively).


A good reason to doubt could be : There could be counter-evidence I don’t know about.
I disagree. You do not form views based on what could be but what is (or, at least, what appears to be what is). I feel like this line of reasoning could end up with you going straight back into solipsism. After all, there might be counter evidence you aren't aware about that the external world exists, so let's use that as a reason to doubt there is an external world.

I wondered why you started from personal observations (P1 and P2) to general observations (P3) i.s.o. starting with general observations. The reason turns out to be that the personal observations are easier to support.
I mean, yes it is easier to support, but it also personalizes it and makes it so that it is easier to see what denying the premise would lead to.

C1 does not follow from the premises. 60% likely times 60% likely = 36% likely = 64% unlikely.
This is, admittedly, the weakest part of the argument, as it is an attempt to go from "I experienced X and, as I'm unaware of anything that prevents X from being real, I am justified in believing X" and trying to reach "People have said they experienced X and, as I'm unaware of anything that prevents X from being real, I am justified in believing X" (well, the argument focuses on one person rather than people, but the intent of the phrase should be obvious).

70% and lower in both categories leads to the unlikely category being ~50% or higher.

I think, however, that if we define 'tend to' in the loosest sense then that would mean some value greater than 50 but less than 100 (as if it was 50% it doesn't tend to and if it was 100% it is always the case).  The average of this is 75%, which is greater than the 70% necessary to reach above 50%. This means that it isn't unreasonable to say that from a more "agnostic" perspective of 'tends to' then the conclusion follows from the premise more often than not and, thus, is more likely to be true than not.

I think this is also where the argument could be expanded for multiple attestations increasing the odds (multiple accounts is used to increase the odds in both criminal trials, historical studies, etc.), which I think it is undeniable that multiple accounts exist. I just don't think it is absolutely necessary to include it in the argument, and thus I left it out.

But I do expect that most pushback would come from this part of the argument.

Morever, you have yet to establish a relation between senses and experience.
They are inherently tied together.
If my sense of sight tends to be accurate then that means if I see something that said experience tends to be a true experience.
I figured that I didn't have a need to go into detail considering the line of argument including solipsism, I figured most people would be able to infer this connection.

I have an alternative to P3, namely P3’ : There is no justification that the above is universal.
I mean, I rushed through that section as it seemed, to me, like a waste of time to go into detail on it. To try and hold that it does not generally hold true to all people requires special pleading while arguing that it does generally hold true for all people does not require use of a fallacy. It gives more weight to presuming P3 is true rather than P3'.

The reason to doubt needs to be good and good reason to doubt is not the same as counter-evidence.
I mean, this just goes into how we define counter-evidence, doesn't it?

[4] Reid’s Principle of Credulity is not evidence. It is a guideline on how to draw conclusions from evidence.
It is clear that you are being much more semantic on the points when the intent of what is being said is not difficult to tell. I shortened the point and used language that, while on its face is not wholly accurate, isn't difficult to interpret the intent of. Can we leave these pointless objections out as they only serve to distract from the actual point.

Background knowledge can make a claim extraordinary. If you place that in the evidence category then Reids Principle rarely applies
The point is that you cannot merely assert that a claim is extraordinary, you need to back up that categorization. You call that 'backing up' background knowledge. Then you need to provide that exact knowledge. Sure, this means that Reid's Principle of Credulity does not apply as often, sure, that is a feature though, not a bug.

The point of the argument is that it shifts the onus onto the atheist or agnostic to give an argument, any argument. That very well could be to provide that 'background knowledge' and show how it works against the god claim. The argument is, in a way, a counter to the null hypothesis of the god claim line of argumentation.

The kind of god that is being argued about is often the kind one would expect more evidence of.
That is something you need to demonstrate though. Your P1 needs justification, and I find that people rarely can justify that premise when dealing with a non-Abrahamic conception of god(s). Swinburne also argues that said P1 would never be able to be justified with god, but I don't really agree with him on that one.
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@FLRW
And Moses was as high as a kite.


Why the fuck didn't GODDO just pop down for a chat?

Why the need for all the burning foliage drama?


You just couldn't make it up....LOL.



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@TheMorningsStar
Amoranemix 10 to TheMorningStar :
“An appearance is probably true, unless there is good reason to doubt it.”
Key here is that ‘good reason to doubt’ is more general than 'counter-evidence'.
I would argue that "good reason to doubt" would constitute counter-evidence, but I guess it is just how each phrase is interpreted by different people.
You are not arguing it. You are just using one term for both. I have given reason to make a distinction, but of course, I am arguing from a rational point of view, i.e. which approach is suitable for true beliefs, rather than desirable beliefs. Reality is not everyone's cup of tea.

Amoranemix 10 to TheMorningStar :
Claims should be judged not only on evidence, but also on background knowledge. Placing background knowledge in the evidence category usually implies there is counter-evidence, but it tends to be difficult to identify it as such.
A problem with relying on the absense of counter-evidence is : how does one establish that there isn’t any ? The problem with people is that they tend to be foolish : “I don’t know of any counter-evidence. Therefore, there is no counter-evidence.”
A good reason to doubt could be : There could be counter-evidence I don’t know about.[*]
I agree, but I emphasized that theism would be held tentatively for that very reason.[11] If I am not aware of counter-evidence then I am justified in holding to a view of something and am rational in doing so.[12] It isn't that "there is no counter-evidence anywhere", that isn't a premise in the argument (otherwise the conclusion wouldn't be to hold onto theism tentatively).
[*] I disagree. You do not form views based on what could be but what is (or, at least, what appears to be what is). I feel like this line of reasoning could end up with you going straight back into solipsism. After all, there might be counter evidence you aren't aware about that the external world exists, so let's use that as a reason to doubt there is an external world.
[11] No, you haven't emphasized it. I haven't even noticed you say that because there could be evidence one is not aware of, a claim is tentatively true. You also have not supported it.
[12] So you claim, but can you prove that ?
[*] I am not arguing about how people acquire beliefs. I am arguing about how to proceed to acquire rationally justifiable beliefs. I agree that some people ignore the evidence that they could missing because it would undermine their ability to hold a particular belief they desire.
For clarity, I did not say that a good reason to doubt IS that there could be counter-evidence one doesn't know about. I used 'could be'.
I am confident you can think of examples where that is indeed the case.

Amoranemix 10 to TheMorningStar :
I wondered why you started from personal observations (P1 and P2) to general observations (P3) i.s.o. starting with general observations. The reason turns out to be that the personal observations are easier to support. [13]
C1 does not follow from the premises. 60% likely times 60% likely = 36% likely = 64% unlikely.[a]
Morever, you have yet to establish a relation between senses and experience. [b]
I have an alternative to P3, namely P3’ : There is no justification that the above is universal. [c]
The argument is invalid. C2 does not follow from the premises.
[13] I mean, yes it is easier to support, but it also personalizes it and makes it so that it is easier to see what denying the premise would lead to.
[a] This is, admittedly, the weakest part of the argument, as it is an attempt to go from "I experienced X and, as I'm unaware of anything that prevents X from being real, I am justified in believing X" and trying to reach "People have said they experienced X and, as I'm unaware of anything that prevents X from being real, I am justified in believing X" (well, the argument focuses on one person rather than people, but the intent of the phrase should be obvious).[14]

70% and lower in both categories leads to the unlikely category being ~50% or higher.

I think, however, that if we define 'tend to' in the loosest sense then that would mean some value greater than 50 but less than 100 (as if it was 50% it doesn't tend to and if it was 100% it is always the case).   The average of this is 75%, which is greater than the 70% necessary to reach above 50%. This means that it isn't unreasonable to say that from a more "agnostic" perspective of 'tends to' then the conclusion follows from the premise more often than not and, thus, is more likely to be true than not.[15]

I think this is also where the argument could be expanded for multiple attestations increasing the odds (multiple accounts is used to increase the odds in both criminal trials, historical studies, etc.), which I think it is undeniable that multiple accounts exist. I just don't think it is absolutely necessary to include it in the argument, and thus I left it out.[16]

But I do expect that most pushback would come from this part of the argument.

[b] They are inherently tied together. [17]
If my sense of sight tends to be accurate then that means if I see something that said experience tends to be a true experience. [18]
I figured that I didn't have a need to go into detail considering the line of argument including solipsism, I figured most people would be able to infer this connection.

[c] I mean, I rushed through that section as it seemed, to me, like a waste of time to go into detail on it. To try and hold that it does not generally hold true to all people requires special pleading while arguing that it does generally hold true for all people does not require use of a fallacy. It gives more weight to presuming P3 is true rather than P3'.
[13] The problem is that the personal case is irrelevant. It are the claims of others that matter.
[14] No, that is not what C1 is about. C1 is : “If you claimed to have experienced X then, absent counter-evidence, you likely had a true experience of X.”
[15] So, in both P1 and P2 you mean there is a more than 70% chance. The problem is that you supported those premises under the assumption that 'tend to' means more than 50% chance. So you will need to amend that.
[16] If you think you can salvage the argument with multiple testimonies, then go ahead!
[17] You have yet to explain or demonstrate how they are tied together. In your argument you merely jumped from senses to experiences.
[18] It may be true for sight experiences, but C1 talks about experiences in general.
[c] That was intented to illustrate the point that followed, that which matters, that which you failed to quote and address, namely that your argument is invalid. No one as far as I know is claiming that P1 and P2 do not hold in general. You on the other hand claim they do hold in general, so the burden of proof is on you.
P3 and P3' are true in the sense that no justification for what either are about has been provided.
Assuming that what is true for you is true for everyone would be committing a hasty generalization fallacy.

The reason to doubt needs to be good and good reason to doubt is not the same as counter-evidence.
I mean, this just goes into how we define counter-evidence, doesn't it?
Indeed. I distinguish evidence from background knowledge because I want to believe in reality.

[3] The claim being extraordinary would usually be a good reason to doubt it.
[4] Reid’s Principle of Credulity is not evidence. It is a guideline on how to draw conclusions from evidence.
It is clear that you are being much more semantic on the points when the intent of what is being said is not difficult to tell. I shortened the point and used language that, while on its face is not wholly accurate, isn't difficult to interpret the intent of. Can we leave these pointless objections out as they only serve to distract from the actual point.
People who prefer to believe some fantasy over reality often try to sell their fantasy as reality. For that they deceive. So, yes, I find clarity about what is being said important.
Intent is ambiguous. If I guess that you intended to say A and assumme you did say A, then you can easily sabotage the discussion later by denying having said A.
In this case it does not seem important though, as you do not seem to rely on Reid's principle being evidence.

Background knowledge can make a claim extraordinary. If you place that in the evidence category then Reids Principle rarely applies.[*] To wannabe god-believers knowing there is counter-evidence is not helpful, so they usually prefer to remain ignorant of that fact.
[*] The point is that you cannot merely assert that a claim is extraordinary, you need to back up that categorization. You call that 'backing up' background knowledge. Then you need to provide that exact knowledge. Sure, this means that Reid's Principle of Credulity does not apply as often, sure, that is a feature though, not a bug. [19]

The point of the argument is that it shifts the onus onto the atheist or agnostic to give an argument, any argument. That very well could be to provide that 'background knowledge' and show how it works against the god claim. The argument is, in a way, a counter to the null hypothesis of the god claim line of argumentation.[20]
[19] That is not a feature, but a limitation, one that is easy to overlook.
[20] First, it is the side making a claim that has the burden of proof. If someone makes a seemingly extraordinary claim, then it can simply be dismissed as extraordinary, no explanation required. However, if they added decent evidence, then the claim shouldn't be just dismissed as extraordinary. (Of course, personal experience usually doesn't qualify as decent evidence.) Then indeed would need to be explained why the claim is extraordinary.

How would you view or address someone's claim to have been abducted by aliens ?

[5] The proper application in this topic is : “That I don’t know of any counter-evidence, does not imply none exists.”
[6] The reasoning would go like this :
P1) If X is true, I expect to see evidence of X
P2) I don’t see evidence of X
C) Therefore X is false.

The kind of god that is being argued about is often the kind one would expect more evidence of.
That is something you need to demonstrate though. Your P1 needs justification, and I find that people rarely can justify that premise when dealing with a non-Abrahamic conception of god(s). Swinburne also argues that said P1 would never be able to be justified with god, but I don't really agree with him on that one.
Gods one expects no evidence of tend to be unimportant. Gods that do not impact the world, do not interact with people, are irrelevant. There may be a god in a galaxy far, far away, minding his own business. Why would anyone care, let alone argue about it ?
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@zedvictor4


           True dat

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@Amoranemix
People who prefer to believe some fantasy over reality often try to sell their fantasy as reality. For that they deceive. So, yes, I find clarity about what is being said important.
I'm so sick and tired of every bigot atheist basically saying every theist is out to deceive every single other person on the planet. It is complete b******* and an utter lie. I do not witness because my religion does not call for it and I don't think any of the gods need me to. But if someone asked me questions and I tell them answers to those questions it does not mean I'm trying to deceive them. I am telling them what I think feel and have experienced. If you feel you're being deceived that's you on your end and not mine. That's how you feel you shouldn't even be in this forum talking to any of us.
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@Amoranemix
You are not arguing it
Do you not know what "I would argue" means or are you just here to play word games? Because if it is the latter then this entire discussion is a waste of time.

 No, you haven't emphasized it.  I haven't even noticed you say that because there could be evidence one is not aware of, a claim is tentatively true.
I used the term tentatively three times in the OP in places that would make it clear what is being argued.
"It helps with establishing the position that one should tentatively hold to."
"If none can be provided then the logical conclusion is that we should tentatively hold to theism as true."
"Counter-evidence needs to be provided or else theism is rationally concluded as true (tentatively)."

That is just where the term was explicit. It really should not have been difficult for someone to see it but yet you somehow missed it?

[12] So you claim, but can you prove that ?
Because that is how it works. Are you denying it? Because, if so, welcome to solipsism. I can walk you through the steps on how that is reached, but it really shouldn't be necessary.

The problem is that the personal case is irrelevant. It are the claims of others that matter.
Sure, but so what? Having part of the argument be more personalized before moving to more general is not uncommon, the fact that you are emphasizing this point is weird.

So, in both P1 and P2 you mean there is a more than 70% chance. The problem is that you supported those premises under the assumption that 'tend to' means more than 50% chance. So you will need to amend that.
Tend to literally means more often than not. Absent any definitive numbers on how much it 'tends to' (which would take further arguments) we have to take an a priori position, and as I already showed, mathematically the average of all the 'tends to' is 75% (which is greater than 70%). So, the safe assumption is, based on the math, exactly what I was arguing. Unless you can justify that the 'tends to' should be based on a value between 50-70% then your objection is not all that great.

You have yet to explain or demonstrate how they are tied together. In your argument you merely jumped from senses to experiences
I have no intention in going into detail on something like that when it is pointless to do so. They are inherently tied together in such a way that these lines of objections constitute a pointless waste of time and the same exact line of reasoning, when applies consistently, will force you into solipsism. You are obviously not interested in an honest discussion, which is fine, but it means that there is no reason to continue the discussion with you.

Indeed. I distinguish evidence from background knowledge because I want to believe in reality.
You say that as if I don't want to believe in reality. There is no real merit in distinguishing background knowledge from evidence. Background knowledge can constitute a type of evidence.

People who prefer to believe some fantasy over reality often try to sell their fantasy as reality. For that they deceive.
Have to agree with Polytheist-Witch on this part of your comment. This is absolutely uncharitable and is so egotistical as well that it makes it clear that you are not open to honest discussions on theism. This is the last comment I am making in response to you because even if you might make a good point or two, you clearly are not here for honest discourse and thus it is a waste of time to talk to you when I can spend such time on any number of other things.

[19] That is not a feature, but a limitation, one that is easy to overlook.
Semantic word games that ignores what the phrase "it's a feature not a bug" means. Pointless comments like this are pointless.

First, it is the side making a claim that has the burden of proof.
Okay, and? The argument outlines that people claiming to have witnessed something is evidence that satisfies said burden. Discourse is like a balance scale. One side puts forward an argument/evidence and the balance shifts, even if not by much. Sure, one side might have the burden, but as soon as they provide something and that balance shifts it means that their side is now more likely. They can further support their arguments, shifting the balance more in their favor, but that is ultimately unnecessary. If the other side wishes to be the correct/rational side then they need to shift the balance back (either by adding weight to their own side, provide arguments/evidence, or removing weight from the other side, show the arguments/evidence of the other side are faulty).

So, making the who "the side making a claim has the burden" is an absolutely pointless statement in light of me providing an argument.

How would you view or address someone's claim to have been abducted by aliens ?
I would point out various reasons why such is unlikely to be true.

Gods one expects no evidence of
What type of evidence do you expect though? How do you rationally back up your "if X, then evidence of X"? How do you know there isn't evidence that you are just unaware of?
Honestly, a proper modus tollens argues that if X then Y and then shows that there isn't Y as a matter of fact, not just that you don't see evidence of Y.

For example, if there is a bottle of water on the table next to me then I should be able to see it, I should knock it down if I clear the table off, etc. These are specific, clearly tied to the nature of a bottle of water on the table, etc. You cannot just go all vague with a modus tollens.
Deb-8-a-bull
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Testimony 
I never hear stories about the day " god " told me what religious group to join. 


I bet allah and Ummmm , A  or The Christian  " god " sound very similar. 
Like almost the same. 

Imagine both gods revealing themselves to you in like the same week. 

Also i think Allah would have to say who he is . Otherwise christian god will gets the credit.  

Anddddd. 
There probably is a large number of people that have been contacted by god  whilst high on drugs. 
Do they count ? 
Of course not ..... rule em out. 

Thats a big chunk.  

Also 

Being like reallllllllllllllll fucking high on drugs makes the claim that experiencing  X might mean Y but feel like X if W reveals himself to be S 
So lets just say. 
Any of these testimonies from anyone on drugs , should not be counted. 

Now if one was to take away allllllĺlllĺllllllllllllllll peoples on drugs  testimonials.  
Ya  might end up with one maybe two dozen claims. 

These few folks characters will then be be judged thus ruling half of them out. 
Thus leaving us with a dozen testimonials anddddd if any of these dozen are already in a religious of their mear guessing and met the god that actually lined up with there mere guess of the multitude of groups . 
Its suspicious to say the least.  Ruled out. 

Thus leaving us with Fred  and Barbara's  evidence.
Great fine people are Fred and Barb. 
HOWEVER there evidence sounds exactly like the major  majority of people on drugs evidence.   
EXACTLY.  

What i am trying to say is.
I suspect  Fred and Barb  may have been druged. 
 
BrotherD.Thomas
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.
Polytheist-Witch,

Addressing your post #20, where I personally am SICK AND TIRED as well of you being an assumed Polytheist-Witch, and being in a Religion Forum! Get it?


This is what my Jesus, as the Hebrew serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, thinks of your Satanic position of being an ungodly Polytheist Witch:

1. “Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God." (Leviticus 19:31)

2. “You shall not permit a sorceress to live. (Exodus 22:18)

3.  “A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:27) 


Furthermore, thank Jesus that you will not be going to heaven, but the alternative, which is HELL, praise Jesus' revenge upon Satanic Witch Craft:
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)


.




Deb-8-a-bull
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The use of the word (  testimony ) makes it sound meaningful.  
This is the only thing that holds weight. 

If the title was. 
Experiences and peoples stories 


 So the title could and should read . 
 ( Peoples experiences is everdence ) 

Instead this reid bloke has gone with .  
He coul

Peoples sworn HAND written court appointed documents on their experience with god  should be takin as everdence.  


Actually it should be asked like this 
(  Peoples experience with god should be  takin as everdence.  ) 

Not the sneaky. 

(  Peoples hand written court confirmed sworn  " affidavit " on their experiences with god should be taken as everdence ) 

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@FLRW
Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up." When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"

Moses had a problem with his eyesight. He appears to have had his bushes confused. When he heard the voice calling out his name it was the voice his future wife Zipporah, she was a true flaming redhead. 
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Peoples camp fire stories should be everdence for gods existence, 
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@Polytheist-Witch
Where the problem lies is for some reason atheists think that religion should be debated via science even though religion has nothing to do with science.
Well put. Though when reduced, you'll discover that it's not really "Science" that's their measure of choice; it's materialism.

If you say you love your wife nobody's going to tell you to produce scientific evidence that you love your wife. If you say you believe in gods no one's going to present scientific evidence that you believe in gods because it's a relationship with a being whether somebody thinks that being exists or not.
Well stated. Some atheists in turn will argue that it's the descriptions of the Bible, e.g. the Great Flood, voice emanating from a burning bush, Jesus's walking on water, water to wine, etc. that are inconsistent with that which they know as physical law.  And since the events of the Bible, or the characteristics of this deity have not and cannot be reproduced with measures consistent with said physical law, then said deity must not exist. The problem with this reasoning is the repeated failure to demonstrate how EXISTENCE is contingent on their measures. Once you realize that this is their reasoning, it's simple enough to poke holes and demonstrate their arguments inconsistency with the very same measures, e.g. the number two IS NOT scientifically verifiable.

Some atheists will be more forthcoming and attempt to make a distinction between that which is inside one's head, and that which is outside one's head. After that, it suffices to point out an indisputable conclusion: IT IS LOGICALLY INCOHERENT TO EXPERIENCE THAT WHICH ONE CLAIMS IS OUTSIDE ONE'S HEAD WITHOUT THE USE OF THAT WHICH IS INSIDE ONE'S HEAD. In other words, everything one perceives is subject to the bias of the mind (inside one's head,) rendering the distinction to be epistemolgically irrelevant.

I'm not sure why one is acceptable and one isn't other than atheist simply don't believe that there is somebody else on the other end of that relationship. But for the believer or the practitioner they have full faith in that other being.
Bias toward particular measures.
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@Athias
When reduced.

For sure...But depends upon how far one chooses to take reduction.


Same with all discussions.....One picks a spot, stands on ones soap box and proclaims the  data that they have taken on board.

Data usually grounded in some measure of formative conditioning (childhood brainwashing)....And then perhaps latterly contrived and modified.

Bias towards particular measures, as it were.
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@zedvictor4
For sure...But depends upon how far one chooses to take reduction.


Same with all discussions.....One picks a spot, stands on ones soap box and proclaims the  data that they have taken on board.

Data usually grounded in some measure of formative conditioning (childhood brainwashing)....And then perhaps latterly contrived and modified.

Bias towards particular measures, as it were.
My point wasn't that atheists apply their own bias and theists don't. Stating, "we're all biased" is irrelevant as it doesn't countermand anything I previously stated. The reduction of which I spoke determines the subject of that bias and the inconsistencies of these proposed measures, not that they have bias with which to begin.

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@Athias
My point was that atheists apply their own bias and theists don't.
Isn't that just an example of bias as described in my previous comments?


A point of reduction relative to internal experiences, and faith in an assumed experience beyond that which is perceivable.

As opposed to:

A point of reduction relative to internal experiences only......Though with an understanding of the experience that is imagination.


I would suggest that Poly has a tendency derived from experience and reduced to a point, whereby she generally overthinks things. Especially things such as science and theism.


I love my wife....Scientific application could come to a reasonable conclusion about this. Though I would expect Poly to overthink the concept of love to a point of reduction that exceeds function and process......Whereby she will have a tendency to overthink love......After all, it is human to do so.


Of course, LOVE is a general term that is used to describe  a wide variety of internal responses to a wide variety of perceivably external stimuli.....I love ice cream and the dog and the kids and my wife and  etc etc etc.

And of course we can also apply the same general term to imaginary unperceivable external stimuli....That is to say, internally generated stimuli.....A GOD or GODS for example......Imagination as it were.