Murderers and rapists should get executed

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
TheUnderdog
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My reason for supporting the death penalty for the crimes of murder and rape are the following:

1) I support eye for an eye.  Not everyone supports eye for an eye and this is fine, but I support eye for an eye as my reason to support the death penalty for murder.

2) I'm fiscally conservative.  Murderers and rapists cost taxpayers too much money.  Usually, the most popular alternatives to these crimes is life in jail (with a small portion of people advocating for rehab for the murderers and a larger advocating this for rapists) but this still calls for jail for a certain amount of time and that is an expense I don't feel conferrable forcing the rape and murder victims to pay.

America (like most of the small dick west) treats their murderers and their child rapists better than the homeless.  If your homeless, you have no home.  You often have no reliable food source.  You can murder someone or rape someone, get life in jail, and then force the victims of the crime to spend their tax dollars on keeping you alive.  This is crazy and not something I can support.

Now the death penalty is more expensive than life in jail because of trials
The solution to this isn't to abolish the death penalty, but to make the process cheaper and quicker.  If your convicted guilty of murder or rape, you have 1 hour left to live and after that, the state executes you (not by lethal injection, it's too expensive).  If a murderer murders:

Up to 1 person: Death by firing squad.
 2 people: Death by electric chair.
3 people: Death by guillotine.
4+ people: Death by hanging.

Multiply these numbers by 2.5 and the same penalty is applied to rapists.

We will make more mistakes, but the amount of money saved is a legitimate trade off to saving lives as what precedence indicates.

If you ask the typical person, 

Are you willing to spend $1/day to save the life of a starving foreigner?
Most people would answer no since sponsoring children is done by a minority of Americans.

Life in jail for 25 inmates (because only 1/25 inmates are innocent) costs about $100 million.

If society is unwilling to spend $1/day to save the life of a child in poverty, why is society willing to spend $100 million on saving the life of a falsely convicted murderer or rapist (if they are innocent)?

Our murderers and rapists are treated better than poor foreign children and that isn't something I support.
#2
Barney
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@TheUnderdog
I'm fiscally conservative
Factoring in the appeals etc., how much does it cost to execute one prisoner? Comparatively, how much does it cost to keep them in prison for life?
#3
n8nrgim
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@TheUnderdog
would you support making criminals be slaves to the state, for the benefit of the victims? the slavery would be geared towards making money, to compensate the victims. if they chose not to be slaves, they could be executed. thoughts? 
#4
RationalMadman
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Eye for an eye... I think you got the wrong idea how to implement that on a rapist and a wrong idea about life if you think you've 'cracked the secret' to justice that was the most primitive way of implementing justice ever invented.
#5
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@TheUnderdog
You've got to prove it first......Beyond all doubt.

Rather than just create a judgement.

Judgements are often biased, and have been wrong on more than one occasion.

Resurrection isn't an option.
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#6
TheUnderdog
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@Barney
Factoring in the appeals etc., how much does it cost to execute one prisoner?  Comparatively, how much does it cost to keep them in prison for life?
I wouldn't do appeals.  You have one murder trial (whether innocent or guilty) and if they find you guilty, you die from firing squad.  This costs about $1 for a bullet.  Life in jail costs millions of dollars.  Some innocent people would die, but the money saved is a tradeoff as life isn't priceless since it only lasts a finite amount of time.


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#7
TheUnderdog
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@n8nrgim
would you support making criminals be slaves to the state, for the benefit of the victims? the slavery would be geared towards making money, to compensate the victims. if they chose not to be slaves, they could be executed. thoughts? 
There are 2 possibilities to this scenario:

1) There are no jobs available for the criminals to do that are productive enough to pay for their living expenses and money for their victims.  If this is the case, then you can't hire them because there is no work available.

2) There are jobs available for the criminals to do that are productive enough to pay for their living expenses and money for their victims.  If this is the case, then you give these jobs to either people that aren't criminals (because they deserve the job and the salary more than the murderer) or you give the money to a low level offender (like someone who stole $500 to feed their family).  I would like to give the slavery jobs to those that did low level offenses and if murderers took those jobs, they are taking a job away from someone that did a crime that nobody thinks should be worthy of death (like stealing $500).

I'm not sure if there are enough jobs for both the low level offender that should be rehabbed (like those that steal $500) and the high level offender (the murderer/rapist) but if there are, I wouldn't mind enslaving the rapist and the murderer as an alternative punishment.  I just don't think such slavery positions would be available for the murderers and rapists without taking someone else's job.  I know I wouldn't want my job to be lost to a murderer or rapist who I would rather have executed than causing me to be unemployed.
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#8
TheUnderdog
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@RationalMadman
Eye for an eye... I think you got the wrong idea how to implement that on a rapist and a wrong idea about life if you think you've 'cracked the secret' to justice that was the most primitive way of implementing justice ever invented.
If you want the murderers and rapists to live, your free to donate to a prison.  But if you ask the typical rape victim or the family of a murderer victim,

Do you want to pay for the living expenses of the man that raped you or murdered your child?
I think most of the people would strongly disapprove of this prompt.  Yet the west's soft on crime justice system forces these victims to pay, adding insult to injury.


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#9
TheUnderdog
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@zedvictor4
You've got to prove it first......Beyond all doubt.
Correct.  False conviction rates are low.

Rather than just create a judgement.

Judgements are often biased, and have been wrong on more than one occasion.
Judgements might be biased and have been wrong extremely rarely.

Resurrection isn't an option.
I don't want murderers and rapists living off the tax dollars of their victims and their families.
#10
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@TheUnderdog
Oh so now it is specific to child victims?

An eye for an eye for a rapist would be to rape them, not kill them.
#11
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@TheUnderdog
Why dud you fake quote me in your second quote?
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#12
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@RationalMadman
An eye for an eye for a rapist would be to rape them, not kill them.
I don't know how you would rape a rapist.  Rapists like sex.  If the rapist is straight, you could have a guy rape them, but what if the guy doesn't consent?  Also, what if the rapist has HIV?  ANy guy that rapes him would have to be HIV+ or get the disease.  Also, what if the rapist enjoys the sex?  Then he would rape more people just to get that promiscuious sex that he likes.

Why dud you fake quote me in your second quote?
I wasn't quoting you in this instance.  I was asking a hypothetical question.
#13
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@TheUnderdog
I'm not the one advocating for the 'solution' (eye for an eye) that you are finding problems with. Your thinking is so simplistic, I am frankly tired of it.

You just sent me a question if I chose my profile pic or greyparrot did. At this point, you are either consistently trolling or consistently unintelligent.

I do not care which it is, I gain nothing from engaging you at this point.


#14
zedvictor4
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@TheUnderdog
 It only takes one wrong conviction to make the system fail.

And like I said, resurrection isn't an option.

And money is make believe....We happily waste billions on all sorts of trivial and unnecessary stuff.
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#15
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@zedvictor4
It only takes one wrong conviction to make the system fail.
This is false.  Over 30,000 people die from car accidents a year, yet we don't ban cars because that would destroy the economy.  Small numbers of people dying is okay if the reason is justified enough.

And money is make believe....We happily waste billions on all sorts of trivial and unnecessary stuff.
If you REALLY believe that money is make believe, then give all your money to a homeless person.  I'm anti war and anti corporate welfare.
#16
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@TheUnderdog
People choose to drive, therefore they accept the risks.

People don't choose to be wrongfully convicted of murder or rape.... And therefore shouldn't be expected to accept a death sentence as a risk of being wrongfully convicted.

And being wrongfully convicted and executed is no justification for anything.

Money is make believe, and no one actually needs to be homeless, but that's just how a greed based system works.

I too am anti-war......And corporate welfare is just another facet of a greed based system...A system that you and I are both a part of.

So I will give all my money to a homeless person, if you will give up the system and go live in a remote cave and hunt and gather for a living.
#17
bmdrocks21
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@Barney
Factoring in the appeals etc., how much does it cost to execute one prisoner? Comparatively, how much does it cost to keep them in prison for life?

If I had to wager a guess on the plan to get around that, it'll be "get rid of appeals" XD
#18
Swagnarok
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Rape nowadays is generally defined as any penetrative sexual contact without consent, with consent being revocable at any time.

Suppose that a boyfriend and girlfriend are doing it. They reach a climax, but then the girlfriend says "Stop". The boyfriend is, by now, in a state of mind where he refuses to stop once they've come that far, and proceeds for another 15 seconds until he finishes.

Bullet to the head or electric chair?
#19
ADreamOfLiberty
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@zedvictor4
You are quite the character.
People choose to drive, therefore they accept the risks.

People don't choose to be wrongfully convicted of murder or rape.... And therefore shouldn't be expected to accept a death sentence as a risk of being wrongfully convicted.

And being wrongfully convicted and executed is no justification for anything.
Very sane.

Money is make believe, and no one actually needs to be homeless, but that's just how a greed based system works.
Mostly insane.

So I will give all my money to a homeless person, if you will give up the system and go live in a remote cave and hunt and gather for a living.
Hehe, no money is make believe. Give the homeless person your house... not so easy eh.
#20
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Swagnarok
@TheUnderdog
You've got to prove it first......Beyond all doubt.
[TheUnderdog] Correct.  False conviction rates are low.
That is not a hard statistic in any sense. You don't know how many are false, all you know is how many were reversed.

[Swagnarok]
Rape nowadays is generally defined as any penetrative sexual contact without consent, with consent being revocable at any time.

Suppose that a boyfriend and girlfriend are doing it. They reach a climax, but then the girlfriend says "Stop". The boyfriend is, by now, in a state of mind where he refuses to stop once they've come that far, and proceeds for another 15 seconds until he finishes.

Bullet to the head or electric chair?
Something that has not been said in this thread yet, and which is often left out of discussions of punishment is the game theory aspect.

Why are there punishments? There are two reasons:
Revenge
Prevention

Revenge is emotional, it is primarily felt by the victims and the victim's circle but can be somewhat felt by anyone with emotional investment. It is not evil to want revenge but it is also not rational. Attempting to quantify an appropriate level of revenge probably won't ever get any better than "an eye for an eye"

Prevention is subject to much more rational analysis. When you have a certain punishment does it reduce the general violation of rights or increase it?

Yes it can increase it. There is an ideal level of punishment for every crime that is sufficient to scare almost everyone away from the crime and to fully motivate avoiding risks. Punishments above that level start to increase secondary effects without increasing dissuasion.

You can see this from a game theory perspective.

So a guy raped his girlfriend for 15 seconds as in your example. If the legal system makes no gradation in punishment between those 15 seconds and some sociopath kidnapping and murdering women, if it will still kill you; then what is in this guy's best interest?

A) Don't have a girlfriend
B) Get drunk because apparently in Underdog's theories this can derapify your actions
C) Kill the witness rather than face the music

C is the secondary effects I'm talking about. If the penalties are so severe (and it doesn't get more severe than death), of course the perpetrator is going to use deadly force to escape them. If J-walking carried the death penalty but was also all but unavoidable society would be entirely destroyed because people would destroy the government rather than be subject to such absurdity.

In your example there was 15 seconds, what if it was 1 second? What if it was precisely the nerve reaction time?

As it stands all hope rests on the jury and judge, and just like the suspect may choose radical options to avoid an unjust punishment so too juries sometimes would rather see someone walk free than have their life destroyed (figuratively or literally).
#21
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@ADreamOfLiberty
We attain a position within society and bide our time until we die.

We may or may not produce progeny, who may do the same and then bide their time until they die

And so on.

Now, whether any of this has any greater purpose, no one knows.

What do you think? 
#22
ADreamOfLiberty
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@zedvictor4
What do you think?
I think that the only people who declare that life is meaningless, and believe it deep down, commit suicide. The rest are deluding themselves to evade reality. Sometimes the reality is that they have none of what they want. Sometimes the reality is that they feel guilty for what they have.

I think that a would be murderer is more likely to become a nihilist because it helps them avoid guilt.

I think a would be thief is more likely to become a communist because it helps them avoid guilt.
#23
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Meaning is relative to data acquisition, storage and management.....Cognition produces meaning.

Meaning is also transferred within inherited data....Instinct.

Nihilism is something of a theistic strawman word.

Murderers produce there own interpretation of meaning, as do thieves.

And communism is a philosophers pipe dream.


And the socio-political guff we readily bandy about here on dart is no more or less derived meaning within the same context.

Passes the time of day as it were.

To assume a greater purpose, is just that, and is no more or less derived meaning within the same context.

And as I will reiterate...Whether or not there is a greater purpose relative to life on Earth, no one knows.

To consider this conundrum, is as meaningful as anything else, despite what a theistic strawman might proclaim.


What say you.
#24
Polytheist-Witch
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@TheUnderdog
I don't know how you would rape a rapist.  Rapists like sex.  If the rapist is straight, you could have a guy rape them, but what if the guy doesn't consent?
I don't know if you're trolling are you actually believe some of the stuff that you post. And everybody's known for decades it's cheaper to keep a prisoner for life than to put them on death row and pay for the appeals. I love how you're like oh well if we kill a couple innocent people who cares the rest of them had to be guilty of something.
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#25
TheUnderdog
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@Polytheist-Witch
And everybody's known for decades it's cheaper to keep a prisoner for life than to put them on death row and pay for the appeals.
So make the death penalty cheaper; if someone is convicted of murder, they have 1 hour left to live, and then they get killed so we don’t have to pay for their death row living expenses.

I’m sick of America treating murderers and rapists better than homeless people.  A homeless person would LOVE the free room and board that murderers get if they get it for free.

Murderers and rapists deserve death.
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#26
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You don't know how many are false, all you know is how many were reversed.
The proportion is roughly the same.

But our murderers are treated better than homeless people.  If you want a murderer to live in prison, your free to donate to a prison.

But if your willing to do this, it makes more sense to donate that money to a homeless shelter instead of to murderers and rapists.

Murderers and rapists should get killed to save money.
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#27
TheUnderdog
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@zedvictor4
And being wrongfully convicted and executed is no justification for anything.
It saves money.

Money is make believe, and no one actually needs to be homeless, but that's just how a greed based system works.
If you think this is a problem, adopt a homeless person and give all your money to him.  Money is not make believe.

So I will give all my money to a homeless person, if you will give up the system and go live in a remote cave and hunt and gather for a living.
No, your missing my claim.  I want my money and I think money matters.  You disagree.  I don’t have to change ANY part of my lifestyle to adjust to my values.  You on the other hand, if you REALLY believe money doesn’t mean anything to you, should give it to a homeless person.

But you won’t do this since you too realize money matters, and it matters a lot.  $1/day matters to pretty much every single American more than the life of a starving child in Africa (if this wasn’t the case, the majority of Americans would sponsor children in Africa).

But this doesn’t happen because the vast majority of Americans don’t agree with your radical socialist agenda because they care about their finances way more than the lives of any stranger on death row that probably murdered.

Eat grass!
#28
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@TheUnderdog
There are programs that give the homeless free housing and food. I could direct you to at least three places in my own little city that help the homeless. And the homeless get to go where they want to and do what they want to where people incarcerated are locked up in little cages. You seem to think I'm not sure why that if somebody does one thing wrong in their life they deserve to die or be punished. I'm sure you think you're perfect but I'm pretty sure you're not cuz no one is I'm not sure if you realize you come across that way. You're feeling is if a girl's raped and her father kills the guy the father should die within an hour of being found guilty. The fact is is the father may eventually at some point be eligible for parole or even excused for the crime he committed.
#29
zedvictor4
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@TheUnderdog
I've never disagreed.

In the spirit of discussion I simply make observations and put them forward for discussion.

Such is Radical Socialism I suppose.


And the non-racist who doesn't care about African children, and  who cares not about innocence if it isn't cost effective?

Dog eat Dog I suppose!
#30
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
You don't know how many are false, all you know is how many were reversed.
The proportion is roughly the same.
How do you know?

But our murderers are treated better than homeless people.
That is a separate issue from how certain your are that people are guilty.

There are programs that give the homeless free housing and food. I could direct you to at least three places in my own little city that help the homeless.
It's amazing how many people don't seem to realize this. I've volunteered at places like that, almost everyone I've met would not be able to integrate with society if you gave them a house. Yes they would have a house, but they wouldn't get a job. If they were psychologically capable of holding down a job they would have somewhere to live.

No homeless people in America are starving, if they would stay in a little concrete box you made for them that could easily be funded. They won't.

[this is from relatively short conversations granted, but it is borne out by more rigorous study, it was a good time for the labor market when I did this; during a recession or depression there would obviously be far more 'normal' people on the street.]
------------------------

As for this notion that it's expensive to shoot someone, come on think about it for one minute. The holocaust would never have happened if that was fundamentally true.

It's expensive because we're making it expensive on purpose. It's a stop gap measure because of conflict over the issue.