it is irrational to argue that there's no evidence for the afterlife

Author: n8nrgim

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@FLRW
What about the scientific studies that show out of body descriptions that r almost always, when investigated, accurate or consistent with reality?

Sight to the blind?

It's pretty clear you just choose to ignore this stuff
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@n8nrgim
In a broad sense it is evidence.

Though not evidence that will lead to anything conclusive.

I think that the intensity of brain activity in cases of near death events is well documented, though obviously the subjects of near death events do not die.

So it is certainly possible that such events will generate accurate memories of intense internal imaging.


Though this falls way short of evidence of an afterlife.
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@n8nrgim

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n8nrgim,

I apologize that I missed another post of yours in being Bible Stupid again.


YOUR QUOTE OF CONTINUED BIBLE IGNORANCE:  "you guys also are ignoring that if they are accurately describing things when they are out of it, consistently... that'd be impossible unless they actually out of their bodies." 

If Jesus' creation are heaven bound and "out of their bodies," this is not biblical, you bible fool!  
 

NONE OTHER THAN JESUS SET AN EXAMPLE THAT WHEN CHRISTIANS ARE HEAVEN BOUND, THEY WILL HAVE THEIR BODIES AS THEY DID ON EARTH!

Thomas, in John 20:27, physically touched the body of Christ following His resurrection from the dead, so He obviously had a body that was solid as before as He awaited to be risen to heaven with His physical bodily Ascension in Acts 1:6-11!  Get it? Huh?

JESUS SAID: "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39)

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (1 Thessalonians  4:16)

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:39-40)

Job says that He will see God in his flesh which equals his body upon earth in heaven:  "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I will see God," (Job 19:26)


n8nrgim, therefore, with your complete Bible Stupidity making itself know AGAIN, your synopsis of "out of body" experiences on the journey to heaven falls upon deaf ears BIBLICALLY! Understood Bible FOOL? Huh? Maybe?  LOL!

NEXT?

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@zedvictor4
if people are accurately describing what happens outside of their body... this has meaning and significance, scientifically. the only way to pretend this doesn't indicate something... is to ignore the evidence. i could see trying to say the evidence isn't credible, but you guys aren't making that argument, and it looks like a completely baseless assertion if you did. if out of body experiences are literally being indicated, that gives weight to the idea that there's an afterlife, given these concepts are almost always intricately related. 

you guys just do logic leaps, and aren't being scientific. as i keep making painfully obvious when ya'll give replies, ya'll are not arguing coherently or rationally.
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@n8nrgim

Susan Blackmore (1978) came to the conclusion that the OBE is a hallucinatory fantasy as it has the characteristics of imaginary perceptions, perceptual distortions and fantasy-like perceptions of the self (such as having no body). Ronald Siegel (1980) also wrote that OBEs are hallucinatory fantasies.
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I would say that an OBE is closer to a dream. And in that sense a dream can also be called a hallucination. Though they’re already established as different experiences (dreams and hallucinations). Out of body experiences are also defined separately but there is a commonality and possible interchangeability between them.
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@n8nrgim
if people are accurately describing what happens outside of their body... this has meaning and significance, scientifically.

That still leaves the point that only the "person" himself is witness to his experience.  Have you witnessed anyone having out of body experience?


if out of body experiences are literally being indicated,
Indicated by whom?  The one that is claiming to have had the experience, or an independent witness.


that gives weight to the idea that there's an afterlife,

It does nothing of the sort unless it has been independently witnessed.


given these concepts are almost always intricately related. 

"concept" that being '- of the mind' ?



ya'll are not arguing coherently or rationally.

Well that may be because that you have not  offered anything other than someone's description of an experience that they had.

I don't doubt for a second that your subject/s experienced something unusual.

I have suffered from sleep paralysis since my early teens. At that age it is extremely frightening.  But, it turns out  that it is a safety mechanism that stops someone physically  acting out their dreams or nightmares  which kicks in once you are asleep. Only with some people the paralysis kicks in before one is sound asleep and the paralysis can be experienced while awake. I don't joke when I say that it is terrifying. It feels like you have been buried alive is the only way I can explain it.
Thankfully these experiences become few and far between with age.

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@n8nrgim
The evidence is insufficient and cannot  be scrutinized scientifically.

Is it possible to create out of body experiences on demand in a controlled environment, so that they can be recorded and studied comprehensively?

As anecdotal evidence is not reliable.
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@n8nrgim


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n8nrgim,


YOUR QUOTE RELATIVE TO MY POST #153 THAT YOU ARE RUNNING AWAY FROM AS USUAL: "you guys just do logic leaps, and aren't being scientific. as i keep making painfully obvious when ya'll give replies, ya'll are not arguing coherently or rationally."


In my said post number 153 that you fail to address, I don't take scientific leaps, but I take TRUTHFUL BIBLICAL LEAPS in my position as shown!  Therefore, my post addressed your biblical ignorance upon the FACT that we are heaven bound with our physical bodies, and that are NOT out of body experiences like you want to proffer at your embarrassing expense!

The membership is WAITING for you to address my post #153 herewith:  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7386/posts/418385

BEGIN:

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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
n8nrgim..............
.............has left the building. 
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The Nine Lines of Evidence from Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences:

1. Crystal-Clear Consciousness. The level of consciousness and alertness during near-death experiences (NDEs) is usually even greater than that experienced in everyday life even though NDEs generally occur when a person is unconscious or clinically dead. This high level of consciousness while physically unconscious is medically inexplicable. Additionally, the elements in NDEs generally follow the same consistent and logical order in all age groups and around the world, which refutes the possibility that NDEs have any relation to dreams or hallucinations.

2. Realistic Out-of-Body Experiences: Out-of-body experiences (OBEs) are one of the most common elements of NDEs. What NDErs see and hear of earthly events in the out-of-body state is almost always realistic. When the NDEr or others later seek to verify what was observed or heard during the NDE, the OBE observations are almost always confirmed as completely accurate. Even if the OBE observations during the NDE included events far from the physical body, and far from any possible sensory awareness of the NDEr, the OBE observations are still almost always confirmed as completely accurate. This fact alone rules out the possibility that near-death experiences are related to any known brain functioning or sensory awareness. This also refutes the possibility that NDEs are unrealistic fragments of memory from the brain.

3. Heightened Senses. Not only are heightened senses reported by most who have experienced NDEs, normal or supernormal vision has occurred in those with significantly impaired vision, and even legal blindness. Several people who have been totally blind since birth have reported highly visual near-death experiences. This is medically inexplicable.

4. Consciousness During Anesthesia. Many NDEs occur while under general anesthesia- at a time when any conscious experience should be impossible. While some skeptics claim that these NDEs may be the result of too little anesthesia, this ignores the fact that some NDEs result from anesthesia overdose. Additionally, the description of a NDE differs greatly from that of one who experiences 'anesthetic awareness.' The content of NDEs that occur under general anesthesia is essentially indistinguishable from NDEs that did not occur under general anesthesia. This is further strong evidence that NDEs are occurring completely independently from the functioning of the physical brain.

5. Perfect Playback. Life reviews in near-death experiences include real events that previously took place in the lives of those having the experience, even if the events were forgotten or happened before they were old enough to remember.

6. Family Reunions. During a NDE, the people encountered are virtually always deceased, and are usually relatives of the person having the experience- sometimes they are even relatives who died before the NDEr was born. Were the NDE only a product of memory fragments, they would almost certainly include far more living people, including those with whom they had more recently interacted.

7. Children's Experiences. The near-death experiences of children, including very young children who are too young to have developed concepts of death, religion, or near-death experiences, are essentially identical to those of older children and adults. This refutes the possibility that the content of NDEs is produced by preexisting beliefs or cultural conditioning.

8. Worldwide Consistency. Near-death experiences appear remarkably consistent around the world, and across many different religions and cultures. NDEs from non-Western countries are incredibly similar to those that occur in people in Western countries.

9. Aftereffects. It is common for people to experience major life changes after having near-death experiences. These aftereffects are often powerful, lasting, life-enhancing, and the changes generally follow a consistent pattern. As the NDErs themselves almost always believe- near-death experiences are, in a word, real.

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@Stephen
see last post. 

2. Realistic Out-of-Body Experiences: Out-of-body experiences (OBEs) are one of the most common elements of NDEs. What NDErs see and hear of earthly events in the out-of-body state is almost always realistic. When the NDEr or others later seek to verify what was observed or heard during the NDE, the OBE observations are almost always confirmed as completely accurate. Even if the OBE observations during the NDE included events far from the physical body, and far from any possible sensory awareness of the NDEr, the OBE observations are still almost always confirmed as completely accurate. This fact alone rules out the possibility that near-death experiences are related to any known brain functioning or sensory awareness. This also refutes the possibility that NDEs are unrealistic fragments of memory from the brain.

"In a little over 40 percent of my surveys, NDE"rs observed things that were geographically far from their physical body, that were way outside of any possible physical central awareness. Typically, someone who has an NDE with an out-of-body experience comes back and reports what they saw and heard while floating around, it"s about 98 percent accurate in every way. For example, in one account someone who coded in the operating room had an out-of-body experience where their consciousness traveled to the hospital cafeteria where they saw and heard their family and others talking, completely unaware that they had coded. They were absolutely correct in what they saw."

that book cites a literature review, of other science articles that measure this, and out of body experiences are almost always 'accurate or consistent' with reality 
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@zedvictor4
repeated anecdotes of objective measurements, is more than just flimsy heresay. it's evidence. not even weak evidence. 
 
either my last post is true, or it's not true. ya'll aren't giving reasons why it's not true. 

ya'll are just ignoring evidence and being illogical. 
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@FLRW
see my last few posts 
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
upon my earthly demise... am i heaping burning coals upon my head? and storing up the wrath of God upon my soul?
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@n8nrgim

See:  Potent psychedelic DMT mimics near-death experience in the brain

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@FLRW
dmt doesn't explain how there's objective measures of out of body experiences. or vision to the blind. or the other lines of evidence. 

drugs, dreams, and hallucinations in all other avenues of life, dont cause elaborate afterlife stories, with common afterlife elements such as tunnels and beings of light and life reviews etc, that almost always are more real than this reality to the experiencers and that almost always give them no fear of death. 

either respond logically to the evidence, or admit you just ignore it to preserve your own world view. 
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@n8nrgim

I reject your reality... and substitute it, with my own reality
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@n8nrgim
But the problem you have is "near" death and not death. Sleep paralysis as explained above #157 has the same effect. The sufferer sometimes believes they have left their body. Near death is the same as nearly asleep but not fully asleep  when the paralysis kicks in. Instead of kicking in when the sufferer is fast asleep. When I suffered these episodes at a young age I was convinced that I had gone to my brothers room for help shaking him and shouting at him, while my body was laying paralysed stiff in my bed. . When  the experiences passed I would get up and go to my brothers room and roust him for not helping me, only to be told I was dreaming and hadn't gone to his room at all. There was no bright light, no floating around the universe and no meeting and conversing with strange shining beings in white hooded cloaks, and neither did I see the future..... just terror and fear.

I just found this;
Sleep Paralysis

ya'll aren't giving reasons why it's not true. 

That will be because these experiences are only "witnessed" by those  that have experience. And I have agreed above  that I don't doubt for a second that your subject/s experienced something unusual.



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@n8nrgim

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n8nrgim,

YOUR ASSUMED AND CHILD-LIKE RESPONSE TO MY POST #159, ESSENTIALLY RUNNING AWAY FROM MY POSTS AS USUAL: "upon my earthly demise... am i heaping burning coals upon my head? and storing up the wrath of God upon my soul?"

As usual, you take a facetious position to a serious post, where you are trying to move the goal posts around so you don't have to at least "try" to address my post #159 that is explicitly relative to your topic, whereas you forget that this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, and not a RUNAWAY FROM DISCUSSION forum!  

Now, try again so as not to make yourself the greater Bible Fool this time, and address my post herewith in this link, whereas the membership is watching!!!:


BEGIN FOR THE THIRD TIME:  

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@Stephen
@n8nrgim


.
Stephen,

YOUR QUOTE REGARDING THE PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN RUNAWAY "N8NRGIM" RUNNING AWAY FROM MY POSTS TO HIM UPON SAID TOPIC: "
n8nrgim...........................has left the building. "
YES!  Then n8nrgim wonders why Jesus' words and I call him an outright pseudo-christian runaway all the time when he RUNS AWAY from my relative posts #153 and 159 regarding his direct topic, where the membership is watching him do so at his embarrassing expense, AGAIN!  LOL!

Jesus and I are WAITING for the THIRD TIME in this post of mine for n8nrgim to respond to my initial post #153 upon the topic in this following link: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7386/posts/418483

Do you think that n8nrgim has gone to Miss Tradesecrets school of;  how to runaway from disturbing and factual biblical axioms, and to try and remain intelligent in the aftermath? Huh?

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@n8nrgim
So you have evidence.

I've not argued that you don't have evidence.

Nonetheless, no matter how many accounts you have, your evidence is still anecdotal and cannot be scientifically scrutinized.

Unless you can induce out of body events/near death experiences at will, whereby it can be ascertained whether or not such events are actually external to the subject or just internal imagery.

I think that it's also fair to say that certain people will be conditioned  to have/prefer a spiritual/metaphysical way of thinking, and will therefore respond accordingly during incidences of extreme mental stress/anguish.
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Picture the BIGGEST most beautiful grave in a cemetery,  the one that are like half the size of a house.  

Well there lies
▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪     MARY MCDONALD    ▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪
She was 69 when she died .
And according to the grave , this was 81 years ago. 
Her casket bigger and more comfortable then your bed. 


¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤   MAX " BLOODY " MAXWELL  ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
His body has never been found , a shopping center was built on top of where he lay. 
This happened 73 years ago 
And he was 37 at the time. 

○○○○○○○○  Deborah Debbie Denson  ○○○○○○○○○
the freshest grave in the yard .
She died 3 weeks ago of a fentanal overdose.
Aged 48.
Pine box basic burial. 
Much loved much missed. 
Blah blah , so on and so on. 

NOW THE QUESTION.  
We are looking for the diffrence.  Out of these 3 folks here. 

Who's the most  comfortable ? 
Well whom might you think is the most comfortable ?

Whos the most used to being dead ?

Are they happy ? 
And other shit like that. 

You cant even begin to start thinking whwt you should take into consideration. 

Surly you cant go.
Well mary is happy 
Max is restless 
Debbie is scared and not use to this change at all. 
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Well it just so happens i have purchased my loved ones FINE , BIG , AND EXPENSIVE Ummm, LAVISH BLOODY GRAVE PLOTS. 
BEAUTIFUL LOCATION.  
IT JUST BEAUTIFUL,   
Ive promised this to them .
Ive showed them the place. 
Blah blah , so on and so on.

Long story short. 
I ain't got these plots.
So its going to be ,  the cheapest cremation package,  and ill find a place for a Bag of ash .
In a tin , in the very top of my cupboard.

Sooooooooo.
This is very nice of me to do that for them hey ?
Im a good guy right. ? 
Its a good moral gesture.  

You can't say . 
You should respect the dead .
Orr
Orr. 
You will get bad karma,  you know the carma thing they talk about. 
Get fucked. 

Oh no .
Actually 
I may very well have a coincidence
A conchence. 
I felt something right.
I forgot about the 
Respect a dying persons wishes clause . 
I may very well fall for that.  
Arrrrrrrrrrr. 
Im week hey. 

if a loved one had jewelry they wanted to be buried with. 
Again
I would be a pussy and fall for it , i wouldn't take it for myself . 
But i should. 

Arrrr i can't stand it. 
Please make the good go away.  


Again long story short. 

If you guys could im gonna have you look under your seats. 

☆♡♡♡☆♡♡♡☆   EXPENSIVE GRAVE PLOTS ALL ROUND.   ☆♡♡♡☆
YES 
ALL YOU GUYS ARE GETTIN THE BEST GRAVE SITE EVER. 
NO EXPENSES SPARED.  
SO LAVISH. 
CONGRATULATIONS GUYS .
YOU DESERVE THIS.

 
' cackle '
He, he , he.


Deb-8-a-bull
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Idea for a business #29,360

If people give me a certain amount of cash monthly.
I , can promise them , that when they die . 
I will pay for there grave site. 

People will be happy with something like that right .? 

A better idea. 
Ill offer insurance.  
On there life.  
Harr. 
This means they only get the money after they die. 
Chuckle,  chuckle,  chuckle. 
But i won't give it to em . 
They will be none the wiser. 

So its there word against mine. 
Chuckle chuckle 

Its not going to work is it. 

Well What if we shake on it. 






 
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I know another guy whom promises over the top luxurious extravagance.  
Of such 
Such beauty. 

Cost. 
No real money needed. 
Ill tell you how yo act for the rest of your life .
You just do as i ask. 
Easy. 
Easy. 

The dead person is the only one reciving the payout. 
That sounds like a better way of pulling off a scam. 

But Surly people wont fall for that. 
It currently has 4 billion maybe even more . Maybe ovef half the entire world population currently have fallen for it.

Fuck off. 
Im not kidding.  

Can you write the book.
No. 
You want to add to the book. 
No no. 
Can you change the meanings of the things in the book.
Well funny you should say that because.  
It just so happens , it was writen with that in mind. 



Deb-8-a-bull
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By changing the meaning of things in the book , i mean like.

What if i said to you.
Up there baldy. ?
Then i went on and told you about 40 bears mauling a group of kids .

Youd say .
What the fuck are you on about right. 
Id answer .
Actually um,  im not sure myself on that . 
maybe that was a bad example.  

Let me start again. 

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When you die you want to be put /  buried in the BIGGEST MOST BEAUTIFULIST 
GRAVE. 
You won't this grave to STAND OUT. 
IT HAS TO BE BIG.
IT HAS TO BE BIG. 

Hey Maybe a few of you guys can start working on my grave.
Only if you feel like it. 
IMAGINE HAVING THE BIGGEST GRAVE EVER. 
I could probably die now in knowing that. 

Its amazing peoples of our pasts haven't gone " over the top " in resting spots. 
Ha.ha.
Big graves .

BIG MUTHA FUCKING GRAVES IS WHERE ITS AT. 

ITS
The pinical of the pissing comp.   


What if not one person visits your grave. 
Whats ya emotions on that. 
Ha. 
Yeah , yeah.
You'd be so sad right. 
It would so suck. 
Youd get Lonely. 


●■●■●■●■●■●■●■●■●■
WARNING. WARNING WARNING. 
You shouldn't think about that like that, 

Its hard i know butttttt. 
Ya don't know what happens wen ya dead. 

Getting sad because know one visits you grave. 
 
Picture 
A llittle bidy tiny grave. 
Just a plaque on a wall.  
Or 
MUTHA FUCKING BIG DICK MANSION SIZE PLACES OF REST.

I mean , if its up to you. 
Youd be in a coffe tin right? 

Your thinking is messed up if your think that Getting cremated doesn't hurt REAL REAL BAD

They burn you to mere ashes.
That would be so painful right.? 
Ouch. 

So thats .
Burn me to pure ash and put me in a tin. 
Thats fuckin easy done. 
I could do it in me back yard if ya want .
No cost. 
No.. no cost. 
If all ya want me to do is turn you to ash mate , it won't take much will it . 
A afternoon at the most. 

Go on get in.
You bloody monkey




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Its 180,000 years ago. 
ya mum dies. 

Any thoughts on What we do. ?

Who believes they can enter into them two holes on your face ? 

A chuckle is heard.
Who said that ? 
John. 

Time magazine 180,000 years ago.
John , front cover. 

He also receives  a  mention  a 180 ,000 ago  Neo - geo.

Thats before the neo-geo with the African ladies boobs.




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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
well, you ignored my post, so. tell me more about how i'm heaping coals on my head and storing up God's wrath upon my soul, and maybe i'll feel compelled to engage in your charade.