I accepted this debate about scientific racism yesterday, but I'm now questioning whether or not this is allowed as a debate topic under DebateArt's Code of Conduct. What, precisely, exceeds the boundaries of permissible argument in this context?
Debate topic allowance limitations
Posts
Total:
49
-->
@Thoth
With Airmax as site president you can even use the n-word.
No cap.
-->
@RationalMadman
I would not do that, but thank you for your input.
-->
@Thoth
Hey there, I'm Ragnar an assistant moderator.
As you're articulate enough to ask the question, you should be fine.
Even if a resolution were in violation of the CoC, it would take a rather severe violation (or more likely a series of blatant but less serious ones) to face any sanction.
If I saw the N word in a debate title, I would push for it to be renamed. If a bunch were spammed, I'd be more likely to act quickly to address the problem before getting approval from the higher mods.
There's two lines of the CoC that might apply within the debate in question:
- Advocacy in favor of terrorism and/or violent extremism,
- Unwarranted systemic vulgarity and invectives, which may include off topic personal attacks and/or hate speech, are subject to disciplinary actions.
So neither say X ethnic group deserves to all die, nor use non-stop profanity. Granted, inside the debate rounds moderators don't tend to interfere (we even delay bans to let people finish ongoing debates... still, eventually someone will do something to force us to act).
-->
@RationalMadman
-->@ThothWith Airmax as site president you can even use the n-word.
Good news. As a Liberal I oppose any restriction on any particular word. I don't know how we are supposed to seriously discuss ethnic slurs like nigger, their history in our language and how they are used to signal intentional offense without first being at liberty to type the word out. Minced oaths and X-word references invoke the original slur just as effectively as the word itself while also implying a kind of semantic magic, as if context is irrelevant and merely writing the word by itself has the power to offend. Well, that's just self-censorship and as often happens when ideas are censored, gives the target more semantic power than mere usage might ever invoke.
-->
@Barney
Okay, thank you.
-->
@oromagi
The power of racial slurs is analogous to that of psychoactive drugs. These drugs have no inherent per se power to induce changes in cognition, but rather derive their effects from acting on the neurochemical receptors in the brain which they target. Similarly, racial slurs have precisely as much power as the racial histories which they target. The N-word, and I will not type it although I do not object to your use of it, is powerful only because people used that word while they were being racist.
-->
@Thoth
Agreed. I believe in absorbing that power and reflecting it right back at the assailant.
-->
@oromagi
This is also why no slur for white people in America could ever be nearly as offensive as the N-word. Throughout American history, whites haven't been mistreated severely enough on the basis of their race for there to be any background of racism for a slur to target. I do not deny that individual whites have been discriminated against on the basis of race, but collectively, they have not experienced pervasive, continuous, traumatic discrimination like blacks have.
-->
@oromagi
Big talk.
Go and say it to black people for real then talk big.
I think it is pointless to allow the word even if the user is black IRL because it would require doxxing to properly moderate like that.
It is like when LGBT use the slur Dyke. It is futile and rude in a self-deprecating manner. There is fun in trolling, sadistically and rebellion-wise but it just is not as empowering as it seems.
-->
@RationalMadman
And words like retarded, idiot, stupid, cripple etc that have become not kosher over the years, i.e. to be less rude with our wording and seek more scientifically accurate defining statements.
Children ----and immature adults---- are great at using words to get a chemical reaction in others brains.
The n-word was a derogatory term even before assigned specifically towards blacks by racists.
I have diagnosed autistic, semi-quasi-friend that I once put my finger to side of my head and spun it round n round implying he is crazy ---two whatever degree--- and he stated he is not crazy. Later I had a frank conversations with him about his mental issues and how as a child my sister, I and other children made the motion of crazy with our fingers pointed at side of head.
Ive made it clear to him that it he can be very frustrating to deal with because of his OCD mental issues and other things he repeatedly does. I told him the other day, I think his medication may also cause him memory issues.
-->
@ebuc
Then why is he your friend if you can't stand him and insult him? Why spend time with your friend if you think he is crazy to such an extent?
-->
@RationalMadman
.. " Then why is he your friend if you can't stand him and insult him? Why spend time with your friend if you think he is crazy to such an extent? "...
Putting aside your misguided statements above, I have reasons to spend time with my semi-quasi-friend. We have mutual interests.
I spun my finger round n round cause I was frustrated and annoyed with is slowness phyisically, OCD issues and other.
There is old saying that, knowing your crazy --truly insane--- is half-way to santy. My friend is clearly aware of his issues and first to admit them. So he is half-way and I try to assist him in moving on a trajectory to less OCD etc. Many times when he tell me his OCD is really kicking in, I tell to stop it, dont do it.
Unlike some others with autistic diagnosis he is able to barely maintain his first ever job.
-->
@RationalMadman
-->@oromagiBig talk.
This is a debate site. Talking big is what we do.
Go and say it to black people for real then talk big.
I was taught this lesson by black people. Most of my elementary school teachers were black. In high school, my principal was Bobby Seale's little sister. I went to a small city college where I studied black poetry and black literature. I was an apprentice baker to a black woman for two years. I live in the oldest largest black neighborhood to be found west of Chicago and east of LA. My little townhouse was owned by Black Panthers in the 60's and by Crips in the 80's and as a center of black politics many famous black people have walked down my street and shook the hands of the black people who lived in my house- MLK, Lena Horne, Sammy Davis, Jr., etc. My next door neighbor is a black poet. I've had black lovers and black friends all my life.
I learned how to write and speak the word nigger from Richard Wright and Langston Hughes and Zora Neale Hurston and above all, from James Baldwin.
I think it is pointless to allow the word even if the user is black IRL because it would require doxxing to properly moderate like that.
I agree there should never be any racial restriction for the usage of any word. Much simpler to simply allow everybody to use every word.
It is like when LGBT use the slur Dyke. It is futile and rude in a self-deprecating manner.
...or when gay men like me use the slurs queer or faggot. I have long advocated for using queer as a preferable one syllable catch all instead of the tiresome LGBTQetc, in spite of Larry Kramer's objections.
There is fun in trolling, sadistically and rebellion-wise but...
Disagree.
-->
@RationalMadman
Elsewhere, Kon Artist (of D-12) had this to say about Eminem: “That nigga ain’t white. He got white in him, but he ain’t white” (Toure 70). In The Eminem Show, black rappers accompany Eminem in only three songs. But in two of these songs (“Drips” and “When the Music Stops”), his black helpers repeat the “N-word” a total of ten times. Therefore, it’s OK to have his minions use the word but it’s not OK for Eminem to do likewise. In Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word, Kennedy contends that by refusing to use the “Nword” Eminem is “following a prudent course” (51). But this conclusion seems unwarranted given two of Kennedy’s other points. First, Kennedy says that to condemn whites for using the word “without regard to context” makes the word a fetish (52). Second, he writes that many whites yearn to use the word like their black rapper heroes who have given the term “nigger” a “new currency and enhanced cachet” (45). Eminem’s context is gangsta rap and Eminem’s hero is Dre. Prudence does not enter into either qualification.
"What white people have to do is try to find out in their hearts why it was necessary for them to have a nigger in the first place. Because I am not a nigger. I'm a man. If I'm not the nigger here, and if you invented him, you the white people invented him, then you have to find out why. And the future of the country depends on that. Whether or not it is able to ask that question. Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed if it is not faced."
-James Baldwin
-->
@oromagi
Nobody should use those terms except 'queer' in the context of 'genderqueer'.
The problem with 'queer' being ruled out is that the term genderqueer is actually the term that those who are genderfluid originally referred to themselves as, so it kind of is confusing if it's a slur or the actual terminology.
I never understood a single reason (not one single reason) why black people need to use the N-word nor why gay people need to use the F-word etc.
-->
@RationalMadman
I never understood a single reason (not one single reason) why black people need to use the N-word nor why gay people need to use the F-word etc.
agreed.
-->
@oromagi
I'm not sure we agree but okay.
Nigger means "black," literally. If one's going to take offense at being referred to as "a nigger," then one might as well get offended at being referred to as "Black"--or the liberal euphemism, "African American"--which I'm not entirely against. Because "Black," as I've continued to repeat in my discussions here, IS NOT A RACE. It's not a culture; it's not an ethnicity. It's a government designation which elides any distinction among Negroids and some Mongoloids and Australoids. I actually disagree with RationalMadman in his misunderstanding of the reason so-called "Black" people have embraced the innocuity of the term, Nigger--kind of a generalized accusation there, by the way. If one's going to indoctrinate a demographic into believing they're so-called "Black," then why chip away at their respective self-esteems by suggesting that the term, Nigger--which again means "Black"--is associated with shame or offense? The term, "Nigger"--more so it's latin predecessor, "Niger," was long used before the trans-atlantic slave trade.
-->
@oromagi
This is a debate site. Talking big is what we do.
Nice.
I was taught this lesson by black people. Most of my elementary school teachers were black. In high school, my principal was Bobby Seale's little sister. I went to a small city college where I studied black poetry and black literature. I was an apprentice baker to a black woman for two years. I live in the oldest largest black neighborhood to be found west of Chicago and east of LA. My little townhouse was owned by Black Panthers in the 60's and by Crips in the 80's and as a center of black politics many famous black people have walked down my street and shook the hands of the black people who lived in my house- MLK, Lena Horne, Sammy Davis, Jr., etc. My next door neighbor is a black poet. I've had black lovers and black friends all my life.I learned how to write and speak the word nigger from Richard Wright and Langston Hughes and Zora Neale Hurston and above all, from James Baldwin.
So you've paid your dues, and became an honorary so-called "Black" person?
I agree there should never be any racial restriction for the usage of any word. Much simpler to simply allow everybody to use every word.
I believe anyone should be able to say whatever they want as long as they own the property on which they say it.
...or when gay men like me use the slurs queer or faggot. I have long advocated for using queer as a preferable one syllable catch all instead of the tiresome LGBTQetc, in spite of Larry Kramer's objections.
Terms like Nigger, faggot, kyke, dyke, spic, dick, bitch, etc. roll off of the tongue so easily that they produce euphony, especially in charged moments. "Queer" does not have the same impact.
Disagree.
So do I.
-->
@Athias
'Black' is a race, what it isn't specific to is any particular black ethnicity. Also, black ethnicities have people like Eminem amongst the ethnic community that grew amongst them but aren't racially black, only blacks can use the N-word.
I am not sure why you pretend to know more than me or always talk down to me but I've come to realise you think you have it all figured out (on any topic you and I happen to discuss) so I will just let you exist in your vacuum as I have better things to do with my time than argue why a term that was used by slavers to black slaves specifically to demean, degrade and dehumanise them, isn't the kind of word we should be saying on a debate website that hopes to pick up any members who aren't on a severe fringe of society (far-right fringe echo chamber is sure to evolve from that).
Very few people on the planet want to see a website regularly using slurs, many would go so far as to abstain from using the website and telling others bad things about it if that proceeded. The easiest way to get debateart in the shit-tier ratings of all search engines, rankings etc is to have the sensors pick up slurs.
Don't respond to me if you have me blocked.
-->
@Athias
I believe anyone should be able to say whatever they want as long as they own the property on which they say it.
Do you mean this literally (anyone should be able to say what they want while they are on their own property) or metaphorically (people should only be able to use offensive terms for a group if they belong to that group)?
-->
@Thoth
Do you mean this literally (anyone should be able to say what they want while they are on their own property)
Yes, I mean it literally.
or metaphorically (people should only be able to use offensive terms for a group if they belong to that group)?
The qualification "offensive" is subject to the individual, and even then it's their responsibility--i.e. how they manage their response to said "offense."
-->
@Athias
I was taught this lesson by black people. Most of my elementary school teachers were black. In high school, my principal was Bobby Seale's little sister. I went to a small city college where I studied black poetry and black literature. I was an apprentice baker to a black woman for two years. I live in the oldest largest black neighborhood to be found west of Chicago and east of LA. My little townhouse was owned by Black Panthers in the 60's and by Crips in the 80's and as a center of black politics many famous black people have walked down my street and shook the hands of the black people who lived in my house- MLK, Lena Horne, Sammy Davis, Jr., etc. My next door neighbor is a black poet. I've had black lovers and black friends all my life.I learned how to write and speak the word nigger from Richard Wright and Langston Hughes and Zora Neale Hurston and above all, from James Baldwin.So you've paid your dues, and became an honorary so-called "Black" person?
No. The topic sentence of the paragraph is "I was taught this lesson by black people." followed by examples of the ways I rec'd that instruction. Your inferences are not warranted by the words I wrote.
I agree there should never be any racial restriction for the usage of any word. Much simpler to simply allow everybody to use every word.I believe anyone should be able to say whatever they want as long as they own the property on which they say it.
Well that would represent a significant curtailment of First Amendment rights for most Americans. Only 24% of Americans own any property and 75% of those are white people. If you can only say what you want on your own property that significantly amplifies the voice of the white and wealthy while diminishing the influence of non-wealthy non-white voices.
...or when gay men like me use the slurs queer or faggot. I have long advocated for using queer as a preferable one syllable catch all instead of the tiresome LGBTQetc, in spite of Larry Kramer's objections.Terms like Nigger, faggot, kyke, dyke, spic, dick, bitch, etc. roll off of the tongue so easily that they produce euphony, especially in charged moments. "Queer" does not have the same impact.
Disagree. As a poet I find queer far more pleasing to speak and rhyme than faggot as well as more inclusive and with a stronger semantic history- the association is "odd" as opposed to "wood for burning" Faggot definitely caries some implications of effeminacy that queer does not imply.
I assume nobody would prefer LGBT to queer on the grounds of euphonic advantage.
-->
@oromagi
No. The topic sentence of the paragraph is "I was taught this lesson by black people." followed by examples of the ways I rec'd that instruction. Your inferences are not warranted by the words I wrote.
I was slightly teasing. Post #5 had sufficient merit on its own without the caveat "I
was taught this lesson by black people"--as if so-called "black" people could grant you authority one way or another in spite of your extended interaction with said, so-called "black" people. That's what my question is poking fun at. (Forgive my grammatical error.) It's very reminiscent of "but, I have black friends..."
Well that would represent a significant curtailment of First Amendment rights for most Americans. Only 24% of Americans own any property and 75% of those are white people. If you can only say what you want on your own property that significantly amplifies the voice of the white and wealthy while diminishing the influence of non-wealthy non-white voices.
You invite an associate over to your home. That associate calls yours your spouse a bitch. You, in response, tell said associate to get his/her ass out of your home. Have you curtailed his/her First Amendment rights?
Disagree. As a poet I find queer far more pleasing to speak and rhyme than faggot
I don't disagree that the term, "queer" is easier to rhyme than the term "faggot." Just that especially in moments of anger and animus, the hard consonant phonemes--slurs like "faggot" provide--give relief in its euphony.
I assume nobody would prefer LGBT to queer on the grounds of euphonic advantage.
Agreed.
-->
@Athias
You invite an associate over to your home. That associate calls yours your spouse a bitch. You, in response, tell said associate to get his/her ass out of your home. Have you curtailed his/her First Amendment rights?
No. Your associate had her say and now she must deal with the consequences of her free speech.
-->
@oromagi
No. Your associate had her say and now she must deal with the consequences of her free speech.
You've now provided an exclusion to her free speech. Suppose, you had a sign in front of your house which bore the statement "No calling my spouse a bitch." That renders the speech of each person who enters your home subject to this exclusion less they face the consequences. You however could call your spouse a bitch because its your home. And that's my point: you should be able to say whatever you want as long as you're on your own property. If you're on someone else's property, then your speech is subject to their criteria (e.g. yelling "fire" in a movie theater.)
I'm here to write nigger just because other people have written it.