It's important to remember the real people of Russia. They do not hate Ukrainians.

Author: 3RU7AL

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also,

are the international corporations going to participate in the sanctions against russia ?

in this short clip, i see,

mcdonalds

h & m

kfc

burger king

ikea

nintendo

lego

levi strauss

puma

samsung

why are they not part of this insane conversation ?

if the russian military is acting like a terrorist organization,

why do these companies continue to conduct business as usual in russia ?

It's important to remember the real people of Russia.  They do not hate Ukrainians.

oromagi
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@3RU7AL
I don't believe the average German ever wanted to liquidate the Jewish people or take over Europe either but we democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders.  There was never a point in history when the German people weren't morally obligated to revolt against the NAZIs and hang the bastards themselves.  Now is the time for the Russian people to take their country back from the oligarchs and display Putin's severed head from the tallest spire of St. Basil's Cathedral.

If you are waiting for International Conglomerate to demonstrate moral courage then you will wait a long time.  Let's remember that Rockefeller continued to sell leaded gas to Hitler secretly and illegally, long after war had begun, even knowing that Standard Oil was the only source of that fuel essential to power German tanks and fighters and that  single corporation could have by themselves ended Germany's capacity for blitzkrieg and so ended the war if only they were a little less greedy.

Let's remember that Coca-Cola continued to illegally sell the Axis powers their soda pop throughout the war, they just changed their brand name to Fanta.

If you must look to other to find your moral compass, International Conglomerates are  probably the last place to start.
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@oromagi
and that  single corporation could have by themselves ended Germany's capacity for blitzkrieg and so ended the war if only they were a little less greedy.
exactly

war is good for business
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@oromagi
we democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders.
at what point were the american people expected to display the severed heads of Dwight D. Eisenhower; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon B. Johnson; Richard M. Nixon from the tallest spire ?
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@3RU7AL
There is value in not dehumanizing others.
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@3RU7AL
The Quoran user "Misha Firer" is a Russian man and I recommend that people who want to learn more about the realities of Russia check him out.

He gave us a harrowing firsthand account of the streets of Russia on the day of the invasion. The way he described it, people did not want to look each other in the eye because that feeling of mutual shame was so strong.

They would like to hold their government accountable too. But they can't, meaning a strong and unified foreign response to Putin's actions is the best they can hope for.
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@Swagnarok
protest will not be tolerated
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@oromagi
we democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders.
Not when their leaders rule by brut force. It’s easy to claim the people should revolt but the world doesn’t operate like the Borg, any individual Russian who stands up to Putin ends up dead or missing. It’s easy to sit in the high horse when this is not the reality you face.
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dead or missing
great point
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@oromagi
Not sure I agree entirely with your take. I can and will talk shit about Putin and other autocrats all day long, but that's because I am safe here living in the U.S. Am I going to do anything real about it? I mean, I signed an online petition last night saying "murder is bad, please tell Putin to stop murdering" but... I mean come on. Am I going to actually do anything about it? Am I going to go to Ukraine and enlist in their military or join some resistance group there? No. Am I going to go to Russia and take part in the anti-war demonstrations there? No. All that said I have no right or intention of criticizing anyone else that answers no to those same questions just because they happen to live closer to the situation than myself.

Those Russians (and others) that agree with this authoritarianism bullshit are assholes.
Those Russians that disagree and choose to protest are heroically brave.
Those Russians that disagree and stay silent out of fear aren't cowardly, they are protecting themselves.
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-->@oromagi
we democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders.
Not when their leaders rule by brut force. It’s easy to claim the people should revolt but the world doesn’t operate like the Borg, any individual Russian who stands up to Putin ends up dead or missing. It’s easy to sit in the high horse when this is not the reality you face.
There's nothing easy about it

....but Ukrainians are standing tall right now.  What chance did the minutemen have against the redcoats?  What chance did that student have against the line of tanks in Tiananmen Square?  The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto?  

The choice is seldom do something now and risk great harm or do nothing and wait for things to get better- tryants rarely self-improve.  The choice is more often do something at great risk now or do something at worst risk later, burdened by regret. Russians traded their democracy for a little stability and economic growth with Putin but now chaos has returned and the economy is collapsing.  Right now, the best part of the Russian military is slaughtering Russia's brothers and sisters in Ukraine- now is the time to strike.  If NATO is forced to move, the risk could be nuclear war and the end of life on Earth.  Russians today have an opportunity and obligation to save the world from another Hitler- and I call that a cause worth dying for.


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For several days after tanks rolled into Prague, there were no outward signs in Moscow of unrest. To the contrary, recalls dissident leader Andrei Sakharov, workers in factories were made to gather at meetings to show their "support" of the invasion. In an interview at his home in Moscow, Sakharov said the invasion was "clearly a shameful act," but the way most Soviets rallied around it was a sadly "typical picture of the way people embraced any action of the Soviet government."

The first sign the Soviet authorities had that not all citizens here would endorse or ignore what had happened in Prague came on Aug. 25, when Bogaraz, physicist Pavel Litvinov, art critic Viktor Fainberg and five others headed toward the historic "executioner's place" on Red Square. Leading the way was a young poet, Natalya Gorbanevskaya, pushing her 3-month-old son in a baby carriage. At noon precisely, she reached into the pram and pulled out a Czechoslovak flag and banners reading, "For Your Freedom and Ours" and "Hands Off Czechoslovakia."

According to Gorbanevskaya, who now lives in Paris, plainclothed KGB agents immediately closed in on the demonstration. "As they ran up to us they shouted, 'These are all dirty Jews!' and 'Beat the anti-Soviets!' " she said. "We sat quietly and offered no resistance. They tore the banners from our hands and beat Viktor Fainberg in the face until the blood flowed, breaking some of his teeth. Pavel Litvinov was beaten on the face."

Just after the KGB packed the demonstrators into cars and rode off to a police station, a line of black cars sped out of the Kremlin's Spassky Gate. Among the passengers was the deposed Czechoslovak leader and reformer Alexander Dubcek, who had been flown to Moscow in handcuffs on the night of the invasion.
Those 8 protestors all suffered terribly in jail but they gave birth to the dissident movement that brought down the Soviet empire.
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There are, of course, millions of Russians that aren't staying silent out of fear but instead are doing so because they are okay with Putin's fascist bullshit. Those Russians are, in fact, dickheads.
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Everyone is real.

Until such a time,

When they expire,

And degrade.


Like it or not,

Putin is also real,

And Russian,

And will expire and degrade, 

Soon enough.

As will millions of others.
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@3RU7AL
exactly

war is good for business
good for business bad for humans.  Good people side with the humans every time.

This is precisely the definitional edge between right wing and left wing politics.

Right Wing, as defined in Paris at the Tennis Court Oath, means prioritize property rights over  human rights (good for business)
Left Wing means prioritize human rights over property rights (good for humans)

By definition, modern Western Civilization is a Left Wing enterprise- we put humans before property rights.
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@oromagi
regular people don't just rise up, they literally never do. It's a minority of enthusiastic leaders and the rest of the nation, 85%, are just sidelined. The continental army was supported by maybe 10% of the total colonists
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@oromagi
means prioritize property rights over  human rights
so, why do BOTH the "right" and the "left" allow "civil asset forfeiture" ?

and why does the "left" cut the water and electricity to the homes of people who haven't even been convicted of a crime ?

which "party" supports privacy ?
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soldiers are dogs that will attack whatever they're told to attack
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-->@oromagi
means prioritize property rights over  human rights
so, why do BOTH the "right" and the "left" allow "civil asset forfeiture" ?

and why does the "left" cut the water and electricity to the homes of people who haven't even been convicted of a crime ?

which "party" supports privacy ?
You are mistakenly trying to force modern  party political divisions into a  clean left/right division.
No such thing is possible.

By definition, both sides of the abortion debate are left-wing arguments.
By definition, the right to bear arms is a left-wing argument.

square pegs.  round holes.
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@oromagi
You are mistakenly trying to force modern  party political divisions into a  clean left/right division.
No such thing is possible.

By definition, both sides of the abortion debate are left-wing arguments.
By definition, the right to bear arms is a left-wing argument.

square pegs.  round holes.
"left" and "right" are both in the top right quadrant
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagi
we democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders.
at what point were the american people expected to display the severed heads of Dwight D. Eisenhower; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon B. Johnson; Richard M. Nixon from the tallest spire ?
For trashing the Paris Peace talks for strictly personal political gain- unnecessarily and deceptively manufacturing six more years of the Vietnam War at the cost of 25,000 dead American soldiers,  I would have  happily tried and convicted Nixon for treason and would have  gladly superglued his severed head to the top of the Washington Monument where bald eagles were trained to peck at out his red eyes and gin-pickled tongue on live television.
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@oromagi
There's nothing easy about it 

....but Ukrainians are standing tall right now.  What chance did the minutemen have against the redcoats?  What chance did that student have against the line of tanks in Tiananmen Square?  The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto?  
These are not the same thing. I admire the Ukrainians for their courage and resolve but it’s different when you are fighting back against an enemy force invading your home. That to most people is worth dying for regardless of the outcome. Standing up to a brutal dictator only to be swept away, never seen or heard from again while life goes on as normal for everyone else is a far less rewarding gamble.

Not saying that there isn’t truth to the notion, the people of Russia do certainly have it within their grasp to stop this monster but if it were that easy there wouldn’t be people like him in power anywhere.
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 it’s different when you are fighting back against an enemy force invading your home.
Nobody understands my position better than the Russian people themselves.  Yes they lost 9 million lives to oust the last Czar but that was a far cheaper price to pay than allowing Stalin to remain in power- that cost them 30-50 million.  Stalingrad remains the ultimate proof that a barely armed mass of of civilians can defeat even the largest, most modern army in the world given sufficient numbers and the will to change world history.  Russians know how to do this- better than most.  They've done it quite violently, they've done it quite peacefully.  I am confident that the Russian people can and would and should take back their country right now.
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@oromagi
Nobody understands my position better than the Russian people themselves.  Yes they lost 9 million lives to oust the last Czar but that was a far cheaper price to pay than allowing Stalin to remain in power- that cost them 30-50 million. 
what happened to opposition to stalin?

Stalingrad remains the ultimate proof that a barely armed mass of of civilians can defeat even the largest, most modern army in the world given sufficient numbers and the will to change world history.
Soviets had more troops in Stalingrad than Germany ever amassed to assault the city. But you are correct that it only takes a few determined men to change the world

  Russians know how to do this- better than most.  They've done it quite violently, they've done it quite peacefully.  I am confident that the Russian people can and would and should take back their country right now.

They will never take back their country. They are perfectly ok after the damage of the 90's.
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@oromagi

I don't believe the average German ever wanted to liquidate the Jewish people or take over Europe either but we democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders.  There was never a point in history when the German people weren't morally obligated to revolt against the NAZIs and hang the bastards themselves.  Now is the time for the Russian people to take their country back from the oligarchs and display Putin's severed head from the tallest spire of St. Basil's Cathedral.

Hold on, is it wrong to revolt against the government or morally justifiable. Please explain.

It sounds like you are saying if the government behaves unethically, than it is the people's duty to overthrow the government.

Has the American Government ever did anything unethical?
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@3RU7AL
we democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders.
There's not a prison large enough to hold all those people accountable for Biden's failures.
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@3RU7AL
It's important to remember the real people of Russia.  They do not hate Ukrainians.
It would be beyond obvious to state this, yet you were compelled to because of some of the nonsense that was being posted earlier, e.g. "god-damned fucking Russians."

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@oromagi
I don't believe the average German ever wanted to liquidate the Jewish people or take over Europe either but we democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders.
Utter nonsense--your identifying as a democrat notwithstanding. The only ones responsible for their leaders behavior are the their leaders.

There was never a point in history when the German people weren't morally obligated to revolt against the NAZIs and hang the bastards themselves.
Why would this moral obligation have been restricted to just the German people? And there were Germans who opposed the Nazis (e.g. "White Rose Movement") and they were swiftly executed by the Nazis. Even though the Nazis were democratically elected, it does not mean that majoritarian consensus is an expression of each individuals intentions and values. In fact, it's not. 

And if you're going to argue that as a democrat, you are responsible for the behaviors of your leaders, where was your revolt when U.S. soldiers were raping Japanese minors in Okinawa? Where was your revolt when the Clintons were and ARE STILL running pedophile rings in Haiti? Where was your revolt when Barrack Obama was ordering drone strikes on civilian populations? Where was your revolt when the U.S. government subsidized the Israeli mass murder of Palestinians? All these president's heads are still in tact. Are you responsible? No. No matter how much of a "democrat" you are. Unless you have been party to the cause of these particular events, you would be not be held responsible. Because believe it or not, political leaders could not be concerned less since they're not beholden nor obliged by "the will of the people."