Is calling someone a coward a ban worthy offense

Author: Outplayz

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@EtrnlVw
There was a user on DDO i'm forgetting his name. He would be a prefect example of what i mean. He always got on my nerves and was mean-spirited... but he always did through conversation and explaining his reasons for not believing me. He also sorta targeted me so it was annoying... but i would never have wanted him to get in trouble... nor did i think to censor him just bc he made me uncomfortable. Darn... i'm trying to remember his name... i think it started with a W... and no not willows. Although willows was like this with me... i know he wasn't as kind to others as he was to me. 
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@Outplayz
I'm not here to feel warm and safe that is not what I am suggesting at all. I've been in this business for more than a decade, I'm not talking about opposition and neither is anyone else. Don't know why you are supportive of abusive traits. Not confrontational but abusive. 
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@EtrnlVw
I'm not here to feel warm and safe that is not what I am suggesting at all. I've been in this business for more than a decade, I'm not talking about opposition and neither is anyone else. Don't know why you are supportive of abusive traits. Not confrontational but abusive. 
I'm not in favor of abusive traits and that's why i've conceded this a long time ago on this thread. To me, he never came across as abusive but i've come to realize not everyone see's things how i do. Someone really has to go overboard for me to think they are abusive. He just seemed confrontational to me, but given some examples from others and their testimony... i can see how it was abusive and that's why i said i've conceded any further defense. Trust me... i'd still be backing him up if i didn't see faults. I agree moderation did a good job at this point.  

But you have it correct what my main concern is... if it's confrontational... i don't think it warrants punishment and it sounds like you agree there. That was my main point on this thread. I'm the last person that would defend abuse since that falls under malicious and i think i've made it clear i'm against that 100%. 
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He was told to stop or be banned. He made his choice. Get over it.
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@EtrnlVw
I don't know the backstory on Goldtop, so I really can't offer any opinion there. 

As far as the rest, I agree this site has some seriously problematic people who seem to be here exclusively for the purpose of trolling and getting their jollies by making other people uncomfortable. 

On the forum is one thing, because when you post on a forum you expect other people to respond to voice their agreement or disagreement (and unfortunately, it is just a fact of life that some people will be more rude than others). 

But I've observed a number of users who are rapidly developing techniques for abusing almost every feature of this site, including comments, votes and the debates themselves. When people try to stand up to them, they treat it like a declaration of war and start a campaign to follow and harass that person wherever they go. If the moderators intervene, then they play the martyr and act as if there is some grand conspiracy being executed against them. No matter what the outcome, they find some way to make the site less enjoyable for everyone else, which seems to be the only real objective of this type of trolling.
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@Outplayz
What would said person do if everyone in the religion forum that dislikes him/her says they don't want to be talked to by the user in question? He/she can only talk to people that agree? And how is it harassment if i think your view is poisonous to the world and someone has to say something? Just let you say it unabated bc it makes you feel uncomfortable i targeted your view? 
Come on. If they alienate that many people, they need to take a look at their behavior. 😄 The idea of so many people blocking you that you can no longer even find conversation on the forums seems extreme.

And it's often the case that bitter rivals don't really want to ignore each other, because the fact is their clash is a source of ongoing stimulation to them. It's a big part of what they come here for. So even people who argue the most intensely and offensively may not be quick to block each other or ask for a restraining order.
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@Castin
Come on. If they alienate that many people, they need to take a look at their behavior. 😄 The idea of so many people blocking you that you can no longer even find conversation on the forums seems extreme. 
This site isn't that big yet... so there aren't that many people. In any case, i am saying in this specific case if it does happen without the person truly being abusive, just having objections. Plus, i've seen people get blocked just bc the other person didn't like what they had to say about their beliefs. So it does happen. I just think it's a bad idea to punish someone on these kind of grounds. Even me, i personally have specific topics that fire me up. I will target any theist that tries to change the definition of god to something like pantheism, or another platform i believe in. I hate it when theists try to change it up bc they hear people say these are more logical platforms. Or anyone anti-gun. So, i target people like that and correct them or rebuke them too. If someone told me i can't... that would be bs. There aren't that many people that do it to begin with... it's specifically certain users that would. And if i can't rebuke them and be called a harasser bc they told on me... then why the hell are we on a debate site to begin with?  

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@Raltar
As far as the rest, I agree this site has some seriously problematic people who seem to be here exclusively for the purpose of trolling and getting their jollies by making other people uncomfortable. 
I have around 600 posts already here... what is really bothering me is why don't i see it? Why don't these users attack me? You have 37 posts and you already see a lot of them? Where? Why don't they target me? I even have wildly illogical beliefs of everything being a part of a higher consciousness... I just don't get it... why don't i get targeted? I'm not trying to undermine if you have and honestly i would back you up against any bully... but, i seriously don't get this bc it never happens to me... i mean, is it something i do right? Is it bc i usually ignore someone that isn't trying to argue me? Is it bc i don't fight back? I don't know... i wonder why i've never been targeted in a way where i would say the person has gone over the line. Yes.. i've been targeted but only by being called delusional and that i have a big imagination or being called a satanist (both atheist and theists attack me)... but is this what everyone finds to be abusive? I'm truly curious. 

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@Outplayz
I have around 600 posts already here... what is really bothering me is why don't i see it?
Well, as I was saying, on the forum it doesn't come off as harassment (as much), because you expect "flame warrioring" on the forums where people are going to verbally spar with each other, be rude and sometimes even insulting. That is just a sad fact of using forums, and people can always choose to ignore the forum and stick to the debates if they find the forum unpleasant. 

But the stuff I'm running into is happening on other parts of the site aside from the forums.

So yeah, you have 600 posts on the forums. But you only have two comments, one vote and no debates. You won't likely encounter the people I've talked about or the type of harassment which they have engaged in, due to it being mostly executed through parts of the site you aren't currently using.
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@Outplayz
The not many people thing is a good point. And I myself have been blocked simply because someone disliked what I had to say. But the block feature is a user right (so ordained by the administration) and we can't take away people's given freedom to use it. ... I hope to God I didn't just summon the "WRONG! you have no rights!" brigade. I'm using the word loosely goddamn it, get back you harpies.

As for the possibility that the person was not truly trying to be abusive, do you think it's likely that the mods would take action on someone who didn't mean to be abusive or wasn't crossing a line? They always give plenty of warnings before any ban and plenty of time for the user in question to respond to the warnings and explain him/her self in a reasonable manner. Wouldn't this weed out people who meant no harm?
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@Castin
As for the possibility that the person was not truly trying to be abusive, do you think it's likely that the mods would take action on someone who didn't mean to be abusive or wasn't crossing a line? They always give plenty of warnings before any ban and plenty of time for the user in question to respond to the warnings and explain him/her self in a reasonable manner. Wouldn't this weed out people who meant no harm? 
I truly hope that is happening and the mods are doing a good job in weaving them out. That is why i got up and arms about Gold. Bc i never thought he was abusive... he was just annoying. So... i started getting concerned that those being called abusive truly aren't abusive. I think some people are just jumping the gun in pointer their fingers at someone bc they don't like said user. To me, that is just as shitty as an abusive person. It's like calling someone a pedophile bc you saw them playing with kids. That to me is mob mentality and that's what made me concerned enough to start this thread. In no way do i protect abusive people, but to be honest... i just don't see that many abusive people on this site. I see jerks, but come on people... don't throw people under the bus bc you don't like them. I'm afraid that's happening. I just have to have extra trust in the mods that they are able to notice that. Which i think having a thread like this helps bring awareness to keep in mind these elements. As i said to the above user.. why don't people target me to the point i would call it abuse? I've been called delusional by atheists and a satanist by theists... is that what everyone is considering abuse? I'm truly lost on it and i hope the mods are conscientious of tattletales. They're just as bad in my opinion bc it's a passive aggressive form of bullying.

In regards to the block function. I think the block function is enough. Bc then the user can't address you and you won't see their notifications. If you decide to continue talking to them bc they brought you up... i think the person made the choice then to continue talking to the person they blocked. If they block them... just don't talk to them. It's really that easy... or am i being unsympathetic again bc apparently my skin is made of steel...  
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Did disgusted just get banned?

Edit: yes he did, question withdrawn.
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@Raltar
Fair enough. But i'm not a newb to these sites. In regards to the debates... i read a lot of them and their comments. And, i've voted, debated and commented on DDO. I still don't get it to be honest, bc i see jerks and have encountered uncomfortable situations... i just don't see many abusive people. I'm being honest, i don't see it.
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@Castin
Did disgusted just get banned?
Looks like he did and now i can say this. One of the users i've clearly noticed being abusive is... well, him. Not even an ounce of defense from me. Good job mods. The weirdest thing still is though... he was never abusive with me, just annoying. I really wonder why i am a repellent to abusive people. 

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@Outplayz
He was never really abusive with me either. There was a recent incident but it was pretty isolated as far as my history with him goes. I did however watch him abuse others, always theists or conservatives.
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@Castin
He was never really abusive with me either. There was a recent incident but it was pretty isolated as far as my history with him goes. I did however watch him abuse others, always theists or conservatives. 
Yeah, me too. I guess i should have said something but i am really anti-snitch. If i am modding in a official capacity i can do something about it, but if i'm not i usually keep things to myself and let the person just get reported. 

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@Outplayz
Yeah I've never reported anyone either. Not even Poly.

Doesn't look like he recently said anything any worse than normal, it must have just been an accumulation of offensive behavior.
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@Outplayz
In regards to the block function. I think the block function is enough. Bc then the user can't address you and you won't see their notifications. If you decide to continue talking to them bc they brought you up... i think the person made the choice then to continue talking to the person they blocked. If they block them... just don't talk to them. It's really that easy... or am i being unsympathetic again bc apparently my skin is made of steel...
This is the key issue, I think. I don't see how someone can claim that someone is 'harassing' them if they are choosing to continue contact with said person after the site has given them a way to effectively not see that person's notifications. Mostly its just people with frail egos who are distraught that someone is criticizing them publicly and want the mods to shut it down. Rather than an issue of bullying or stalking, it's just the tired old human standby of not liking criticism. Because that's all that I really saw GoldTop do to RM: make some pointed personal criticisms that honestly were often right on the mark. I don't know if he was making death threats in PMs or sending him dickpics or something, but from what was visible I didn't see anything terribly nasty. Nothing like any of the serious bullying that we saw on DDO, like contacting people's real life Facebook friends unsolicited to shittalk them or sending violent PMs.

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@ResurgetExFavilla
I don't see how someone can claim that someone is 'harassing' them if they are choosing to continue contact with said person after the site has given them a way to effectively not see that person's notifications. 
See what I said earlier;

...users who are rapidly developing techniques for abusing almost every feature of this site, including comments, votes and the debates themselves.
And this

Not seeing notifications is fine. And not responding to people you have blocked sounds like a great policy on paper. 

Unfortunately, neither of these things helps you if people continue to follow you around, comment on all your debates, give phony votes, spread false information about you to other people, etc. 

Like I said, it is fine on the forums where you expect people to argue and insult each other. But once a grudge starts to spread to all the other functions of the site, just blocking alone isn't a complete fix (unless the functionality of the block feature gets buffed up significantly, as I've requested elsewhere). 


Nothing like any of the serious bullying that we saw on DDO, like contacting people's real life Facebook friends unsolicited to shittalk them or sending violent PMs.
Honestly, I see it escalating to that point eventually. One of the guys currently harassing me is a former DDO user (who supposedly left that site because he had some negative run-ins with the moderators) and I wouldn't put it past him to pull a stunt like that if he knew how to contact anyone else who knows me off of this site. This guy is obsessed with trying to force me to "talk" to him, at any cost.

Every time he gets confronted about his behavior, he just says "But... all I wanted to do is talk to him!" Classic stalker behavior right there.
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Does anyone here think it is a coincidence that all 4 trolls from DDO have gotten banned here?

Or that few are surprised, and many predicted?

If you disagree, DDO is still there. Willows and the moron hari are still there spamming a dead board. Join them. There are absolutely no rules or moderation. Be there and be happy.



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@Raltar
GoldTop was the user whom I was referring to (the subject of this thread), who as far as I know didn't spam vote any debates. Commenting on debates can be ignored, and if the information is being spread publicly it's banned as either call-out thread or cross-thread contamination in most cases. If someone is talking about you in PMs, tough titty in my mind; it's the internet, and people gossip just like in real life. The only thing that would really be 'problematic' is spamming debate votes, but we kind of have a system in place to take care of that. Now, as to whether that system is biased you certainly might have a point there. There's one particular user who has not once voted for the conservative/theist position in any debate, but is apparently now part of the 'high quality vote' group on this site lol.

As far as I know, there's only one user of this site who ever went as far as the first example (probably the most intense example of bullying I can recall), and I think that he probably learned his lesson. There are a couple who sent threatening PMs, but they were pretty quickly chastised and punished for it.
Polytheist-Witch
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I am told all the time I don't belong on a debate site. When atheists do it they are just debating theists. Let's be honest. The atheist are backing up goldfart and the theists are trying to explain why he is a hostile douche. Sides are sides. You lost one. Take it. 
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@Castin
You are such a bitch. 
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@Outplayz
The mistake most people make when someone gets banned is searching for their most recent posts, that is not the case most of the time. It's called an accumulation effect, not single posts. Like I said, unless someone is watching you may not be aware of targeting or harassment, and people can find ways to do it where it is not so evident and they can be very sneaky about it. I'm very good at reading people and this was a clean ban, and as for disgusted he got away with much more than he really should have. I could say a lot more about Goldtop and what he does but I'm not going to do that, anyone watching knows what he is up to. Those who support him in this thread are probably the same ones that laugh at his insulting posts (not you), they think it is funny because they probably also believe Theism is a joke and I believe people get off on that like a drug. 
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@ResurgetExFavilla
...contacting people's real life Facebook friends unsolicited to shittalk them or sending violent PMs...

GoldTop was the user whom I was referring to...
The thing is though, you know one user engaged in behavior that severe, so why would you be convinced another user wouldn't eventually take a page out of the same playbook and pull the same stunt? It's like saying that "we caught the murderer, so now we never need to worry about anyone ever committing murder again."


Commenting on debates can be ignored, and if the information is being spread publicly it's banned as either call-out thread or cross-thread contamination in most cases.
Unfortunately, I have to say that hasn't been my experience so far.

I don't want to say too much publicly, so as to avoid any possible CoC violations myself, but I do feel that "cross-thread contamination" was only partly addressed in my case, at best.


There's one particular user who has not once voted for the conservative/theist position in any debate, but is apparently now part of the 'high quality vote' group on this site lol.
I believe to know which one you are talking about. I did personally say that I was opposed to the idea of a "high-quality vote group" on the thread which announced said group, because I felt it sent the wrong message.

For what it is worth, I have seen the user in question vote fairly when the topic of the debate is non-religious in nature. Said user voted in my favor on several of my recent debates, and I also stumbled across a few older votes cast by said user which came down on a "conservative" side in political debates which lacked any major religious component.

It seems that there is only an issue on religious debates, specifically if the debate directly addresses the existence of God. Not just that user specifically either, but a number of people will basically say that any debate involving God is wrong by default, and know how to write their justification so that it complies with the rules.

Alternatively, I'm hoping that when "groups" are added as a fully-fledged feature of the site in the future, there may be an option to organize groups to represent Christians and conservatives. This could balance out the unfair votes... or it might just escalate the issue to a higher level of fighting between various groups. I guess we will see...


The only thing that would really be 'problematic' is spamming debate votes, but we kind of have a system in place to take care of that.
It isn't so much "spamming" of votes that I'm concerned about, but more "sniping" of votes by individuals with an axe to grind, or something personal to gain.

It is possible, albeit challenging and time-consuming, to write very long, detailed votes which technically comply with all the requirements of the CoC regarding votes, yet still effectively cast a vote for whomever they personally wanted to win, rather than who actually debated better. (And again, you yourself cited an example where you already believe this is happening.)

Alternatively, legitimately honest votes that are just short statements about why a person won will often fail one or more of the CoC requirements and get easily removed if anyone (even a random uninvolved third party) complains.

So this creates an atmosphere where winning a debate honestly seems to come down to whoever has more allies voting on their behalf wins, particularly if said allies are able to carefully walk the line of obeying the CoC while still doling out the opinions of their choice, intimidating anyone who disagrees and utilizing the moderators to take down votes that don't follow the pattern. The current system grants an obvious advantage to those who are technically complaint with the rules, but still engaging in some obviously biased form of abuse by combining multiple strategies of trolling, low-grade harassment and bias-based voting to ensure a lot of easy debate wins.

Like I said, I don't want to name-names or get too detailed on my specific experience, but if you think it would help, shoot me a PM and I'll point you to the specific incidents I'm talking about.
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@Castin
Doesn't look like he recently said anything any worse than normal, it must have just been an accumulation of offensive behavior. 
This is sorta something i have a problem with. Many cases of being a jerk shouldn't be stacked against you to get you banned. I think there should be a clear instance of being malicious and abusive that gets you banned. I've seen it from D, but he already got banned for the time i saw it. I'm just hoping that's what got him in trouble again... not that he's mean-spirited bc we all know he is. 

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@ResurgetExFavilla
Mostly its just people with frail egos who are distraught that someone is criticizing them publicly and want the mods to shut it down.
This is what i have a big problem with bc it is essentially reverse bullying by snitching to shut someone down bc you don't like what they have to say. I think it's just as toxic as the latter. And your observations of Gold are the same ones i've had which is why i was confused. I never noticed him being abusive. Yes, he targeted some users more than the rest.. but it's bc he didn't like their views. Plus, i think, and i'm not trying to victim shame, i think that some of the times it's the targeted person's fault for either pushing the accused to get more mean or arguing with the person. In any case, i'm not trying to be mod on this anymore. All we can do is trust the moderation team has taken these things into account and that there was abusive behavior. I never saw it, and i rarely see it in general. I just's see people that don't like other people's views and let them know. There is nothing wrong with that. And the site really has to consider people that report everyone that's a little mean trying to get them in trouble are just as toxic. 

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@EtrnlVw
The mistake most people make when someone gets banned is searching for their most recent posts, that is not the case most of the time. It's called an accumulation effect, not single posts.
Like i've told the others... if that's the case, i don't agree with moderation. The person had to be clearly malicious or abusive in my opinion to deserve a ban. Just being a jerk and/or unsympathetic to other people's views shouldn't accumulate to get you in trouble. If this is all that got Gold did to get in trouble, even D, i don't agree with moderation. I've personally seen D in the category i would ban, but i never saw Gold in that category... so, i'm just trusting everyone else that he was... personally, i never saw it. But the very least i agree with moderation is if he was told not to be mean to someone and continued to do so... that i would say borders abusive behavior and is why i've conceded defense. But... if what you're saying is true only, i don't agree with mod action. I would go as far as to say the mods are targeting users bc some users prefer to snitch left and right. I think snitch users, those that try to shut down other people that they dislike, are just as toxic as an abusive member. And i hope mods aren't giving them power. 
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@Outplayz
Then perhaps you would enjoy DDO better, where stalkers and hostile members are given free reign and discussions and mutual respect do not exist. 
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I have an amazing proposition, how about we let the mods do their damn job and the rest of us engage in topics of discussions?