Airmax vs 3RU7AL (vs hammer?) in RM's eyes. 2022 election for President

Author: RationalMadman
RM
DART president
Airmax
TheHammer
3RU7AL

Posts

Total: 30
Topic's author
#1
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
This is NOT a callout thread. I am EXPLAINING my stance, this is not a subliminal.

~~~~~

I want my previous supporters, most of whom are either abstaining or heavily considering to vote 3RU7AL due to familiarity, to stay with me here and understand why I've endorsed Airmax1227. I was not 'played' which may make you think there is some kind of game going on, I want you to all fully understand my stance. Ignore all toxicity towards me, ignore the tone or words (don't have to ignore it but just asking you to for this thread) and pay attention to the situation, the platforms and the agendas at play.

Agendas as RM perceives them

RM - Make the site grow by stopping big bans by more gradual intermediary moderation as well as a general 'clean up the site' approach to induce harmony and repel less users away.

Wylted -  Stop RM doing that. Increase freedom, keep the mods in check and push hardcore freedom of speech and expression. Main motive beyond stopping RM is to stop the site dying.

3RU7AL - Push for more quantifiable rules, apply them uniform.

Airmax - Don't give much of a damn clarifying stance on moderation, push for the site to grow incredibly much but only if he wins.

TheHammer - Oppose Airmax for the luls, hey RM I will vote for you in good faith.

Now, I want you to watch something that happens when we analyse these agendas.

There are 3 users trying to stop the site dying:
RM, Wylted and Airmax and based on prior track record from years ago I can tell you that Airmax is equipped to stop a dying debate website from truly dwindling, he was overcome by brutal adspam and lack of admin access to the website. At least that's my understanding.

There are 2 other users;
3RU7AL and TheHammer.

I don't know a politically correct or polite way to say that TheHammer is running as a joke candidate, your vote to TheHammer will be wasted in my opinion, sorry to say it. I based this both on public and private discourse and a bit of knowledge about the user from the past. If I am wrong and Hammer is sincere then I do apologise.

3RU7AL wants to do something that can't be achieved by a President (make qualitative rules become quantifiable) as this is a moderator-only capacity to change. Furthermore, with regards to pushing for the site's popularity or event, I doubt this user will use their powers at all.

This here is a summary of why I unironically and genuinely dropped out to endorse Airmax1227.

I encourage my previous supporters to see this as a necessary evil (that they are appeasing a user who for all intents and purposes will not help the website nearly as much if he loses the presidency and I would go as far as to say it's out of spite).

I do not like Airmax, I respect his ability to make a site stop dying, specifically a debate website. It's that simple.
Topic's author
#2
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
@Outplayz
@ILikePie5
@oromagi
@FLRW
Please see above.
Topic's author
#3
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheHammer
@3RU7AL
@Lemming
@Reece101
@airmax1227
See above, please.
#4
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
interesting
Topic's author
#5
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@zedvictor4
Are you insistent on abstaining?
#6
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,348
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
All right, I read post #1.
Topic's author
#7
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Anybody who wants a good, edited axolotl pic, hit me up. 
#8
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@RationalMadman
I just don't know Airmax. I never saw him moderate in my two years on DDO, even though I witnessed offenses I thought were worthy of it. All I know about him is that he has some kind of cult of personality and a laissez-faire approach to moderating.

I know 3RU7AL and I like him. He has a healthy skepticism toward authority and power. Airmax's relationship to power seems... less clear, and potentially suspect. But I don't really know for sure, because, again, I have no experience with him.
#9
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Castin
You might be able to get a feel for his moderating approach in this thread, though he is running for president not moderator

#10
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
DDO's CoC was never enforced that I observed and so was functionally meaningless until we brought it here and actually enforced it. Then people whined and complained because they were unaccustomed to Airmax's rules actually being enforced.

I judge a mod by what they do, not what they write up on the board and ignore, and I never saw Airmax do anything. It sounds like that's what you guys liked about him, but that's a big "meh" for me.

The only thing I find compelling is Airmax's promise to promote and advertise the site. I think that should be a top priority.
Topic's author
#11
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Castin
I'm actually in entirely the same boat as you, just that I'm pragmatic where you're idealistic. 

Min vs max it (pun unintended).

3RU7AL at his apex is not gonna do more than Max at slightly above his min, if we talk site-growth.

Idk how to explain it though, to me the odds are obvious. I'll let you decide for yourself, you are one of the few users of this website that I fully respect the opinion when it comes to your view on other members. Airmax did indeed neglect you religion-forum guys entirely and if this was about him being a mod here I'd be the damn poster boy of his opposition, believe me.

He isn't becoming a mod, he's becoming a power-check for mods and official event hoster.
#12
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Castin
They literally banned people here for wrong think. 
#13
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,944
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@Castin
If you liked bsh1 you would like airmax. Bsh1 was a big fan of airmax on DDO as well. Trust me you qould like airmax. I encourage you to message him and ask him questions and get to know him. He is a good guy, a hard worker, and someone you will 100% like if you give him a chance. He's right up your ally.
Topic's author
#14
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Made this and those I PMd it didn't like it if anyone wants an axolotl pic:

#15
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@RationalMadman
I hear you. I'll consider it. Site promotion is definitely a pivotal issue for me.

He isn't becoming a mod, he's becoming a power-check for mods and official even hoster.
This was why I was gonna vote for 3RU7AL. He seems like a better power-check. But I'm not aware of 3RU7AL having said anything about working to promote the site...

The suggestion in your OP is that Airmax will not work to promote the site if he loses. What are you basing that on? Did he say as much?
Topic's author
#16
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Castin
What are you basing that on? Did he say as much?
Yes, both in private and even public discourse but in public he talks in a strange cryptic read-between-the-lines manner where instead of directly saying that, he and some of his core supporters say if he loses they will consider this community unworthy of promotion.

It's crazy that that's the nature of the demands but I caught onto it soon enough to drop out.
#17
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@RationalMadman
Eesh. That's a turn-off.
Topic's author
#18
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Castin
Couldn't agree more with you, I resented him with a passion even when almost everybody on DDO loved him. 

If he really loved this community, he'd promote it whether he won or lost but he's power-hungry and our only hope. To me, the decision is simple.

I can forgive and move on, he's gonna stay true to something like a direct promise I feel.
#19
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Lunatic
If you liked bsh1 you would like airmax. Bsh1 was a big fan of airmax on DDO as well. Trust me you qould like airmax. I encourage you to message him and ask him questions and get to know him. He is a good guy, a hard worker, and someone you will 100% like if you give him a chance. He's right up your ally.
Well I would ask bish himself, but they BURNED HIM AT THE STAKE.

But at least I'm not bitter or anything.

You know I loved bish, but I feel like if bish had been moderating DDO, the religion forum wouldn't have been nearly as bad. The two may have been friendly, but that doesn't mean I would like their moderating styles equally.

I realize the president is not a mod, but he will influence moderation, and it could be said that the presidency is a strong audition for a moderator position.
#20
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Wylted
They literally banned people here for wrong think. 
I've only ever seen them ban people for violating the CoC. If you think the CoC should be changed, they have an avenue of appeal for that. But this whole idea that the mods are Big Brother controlling your thoughts or exiling people for dissenting opinion is bullshit as far as I can tell.

From bish to Ragnar to whiteflame and Supa, I have only ever seen decent and well-meaning moderating on this site -- with above-average community outreach and communication. But you guys have complained about the mods since DART began, and I have never really understood it. Personally I think you were just used to being able to get away with anything on DDO, and didn't like that that changed. But that's just me.
#21
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
yess
#22
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Castin
I've only ever seen them ban people for violating the CoC. If you think the CoC should be changed, they have an avenue of appeal for that. But this whole idea that the mods are Big Brother controlling your thoughts or exiling people for dissenting opinion is bullshit as far as I can tell.
This set of mods has improved, but yes there are people banned for debating controversial opinions in the forums. Regardless of what you think, it's dumb to ban somebody on a debate site for having a controversial opinion.

The COC should be changed, but it has been intentionally misinterpreted by previous mods as well, to justify their agenda of shutting down free speech
#23
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,944
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@Castin
Well I would ask bish himself, but they BURNED HIM AT THE STAKE.

But at least I'm not bitter or anything.

You know I loved bish, but I feel like if bish had been moderating DDO, the religion forum wouldn't have been nearly as bad. The two may have been friendly, but that doesn't mean I would like their moderating styles equally.

I realize the president is not a mod, but he will influence moderation, and it could be said that the presidency is a strong audition for a moderator position.

Are you for more moderation or less moderation?

#24
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Wylted
I suppose you're talking about the Mesmer ban? Under bish, you could espouse prejudice toward a broad group as long as you did not direct it at a user. Sort of like how I didn't ban you for that "Are Blacks the Worst Debaters?" debate until you started calling your opponent Kunta Kinte and demanding he call you "master."

Ah. Those were the days, weren't they buddy.

Anyway, it appears policy has changed since then. It's hard to be sad to see a change from "broad racism allowed" to "no racism allowed," though.
#25
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Lunatic
Are you for more moderation or less moderation?
I'm content with our current level of moderation. I would definitely be against more, but I would be open to trying less.
#26
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Castin
"Are Blacks the Worst Debaters?" debate until you started calling your opponent Kunta Kinte and demanding he call you "master."
That was a low IQ move and egregious. It wasn't an insult and took place within a debate which allowed judges the opportunity to punish me. That was near the line that shouldn't be crossed, but not over it.

I am not specifically talking about Mesmer here, though her ban was ridiculous. All of her bans. Check out the thread I posted with the COC that Airmax wrote up. He specifically mentioned in his COC, precisely where the line is and it is a COC that was arrived at through trial and error on another debate site where there was a similar evolution in modding, from overly aggressive to just right.

Granted the religion forum was the wild west and went too far, and you are judging the modding practices entirely on your experience in the religion forum, which generally despised any mod interference, had a different culture than the rest of the site and was generally resistant to moderation. I don't like the religion forum culture and usually avoid that section, but it is the culture they wanted. Serious religious discussion can and should go in the philosophy forum anyway.


#27
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Wylted
Granted the religion forum was the wild west and went too far, and you are judging the modding practices entirely on your experience in the religion forum, which generally despised any mod interference, had a different culture than the rest of the site and was generally resistant to moderation. I don't like the religion forum culture and usually avoid that section, but it is the culture they wanted. Serious religious discussion can and should go in the philosophy forum anyway.
You are basically saying here that moderation should not be applied equally to all forums.
#28
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Castin
I haven't in fact stated that. I do think there are members who stay there exclusively and it has a unique culture, independent of the rest of the site. I was listing reasons not justification for your experience being different on DDO, when you described a wild west type atmosphere.

With that said. I don't care how the religion forum is moderated, and I do think it should be how the majority of people in that section want to be moderated
Topic's author
#29
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Latest update from Airmax strategic HQ

Those voting Airmax ought to change their profile image to an axolotl of some kind, it is the way forward.

352 days later

#30
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
Bump