Why you should not vote for RationalMadman.

Author: Lunatic

Posts

Total: 165
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
I will start off by saying this is not an attempt to smear RationalMadman's character, or to hurt/ dig at him in the slightest. This is purely an argument, a very compelling one mind you, about why I think his campaign is damaging to the website as whole. 

First, what is the exact role of the president? What are we trying to accomplish here? Let's take it straight from the horses mouth shall we? 

"While not a moderating role, the President does retain limited powers with their position, including:
  • The ability to communicate within a moderation team chat (via Discord) in order to give input on all forms of daily decision-making. Except when completely untenable, the mod team will strive to ensure the President’s viewpoint is heard and honored.
  • The ability to approve or veto permanent ban propositions. Moderation will be required to submit permanent ban propositions to the President for review unless the user in question is a bot or advertising account, the situation is uniquely urgent or severe, the President is absent and/or unreasonably tardy, or the permanent ban proposition targets the President themselves. Vetos may be overridden by a simple majority vote among the moderation team. 
  • The ability to envision and execute community events, pending the approval and assistance of moderation."
A role that directly impacts how moderators function is pretty important. The first bullet point here talks about just a general ability to communicate with the mods. I suppose you have that same avenue through messages so no big whoop. But that second bullet point there, that's where this gets real. Having the ability to say "yes or no" to a ban is an absolutely insane thing to allow a member like rationalmadman to do, especially when given his statements in his campaign thread. 

"As somebody who both personally and, by observing others, has both felt and seen the impacts of harassment, I would use any sway I had as president to push the mods to respect and notice interactions that drive people off of the website or alternatively drive them to act more hostile.
There is this idea that 'special snowflakes' should just suck it up and toughen up but this is a website we use to pass the time with many intellectuals on it who have unique sensitivities and often were bullied IRL and teased for their odd ways. It's not an ordinary person who comes to a debate website, that just isn't the niche market this goes for."

RationalMadman has a mentality towards "bullies" that is absolutely insane by the way. I tried having a discussion with rationalmadman some months back about the movie "Borat" where I was told by RM that the actor who played Borat (Sacha Baron Cohen) was a bully, and a horrible person because he pulls public pranks at others expenses and doesn't inform them of the prank (obviously that would undermine the very idea of the prank). In having a conversation with him about this and trying to get him to see how absurd the idea that this guy is the anti-christ because of a prank, RationalMadman proceeded to lump me into the same "evil person" category and subsequenty blocked me and left the discord. I was flabbergasted by this. I was honestly attempting to debate and discuss an issue with him, and was called a bully and blocked.

This is just one example of many on this website where RationalMadman gets carried away with the use of the term "bully".


Here is an example of RM being bullied because someone dislikes an anime character he likes. 

But it's important to understand his worldview of bullying. If he views something as offensive, and you dis-agree with him that said thing is offensive, you are automatically to be silenced, or cancelled. He is cancel culture personified. Cancel culture and people who view the world through a "right to be offended by everything lens" is the problem with society. Comedians can't tell a joke without offending someone. You can't make a star wars or ghost buster movie with out a strong powerful female lead or you are a misogynist. The same rhetoric we see every day is caused by people with the same world view as RationalMadman.

This all becomes extremely important when you realize how much this role actually has to do with moderation. Overt moderation has already been a problem on this site from the beginning of this websites birth. I've made multiple threads explaining why this is so over the past few years, and its really the only issue I see that prevents this site from growing. Now wylted is also someone I actively campaigned against on DDO when he ran last, however DDO has very different circumstances than DART has with moderation. Moderation of DDO (Airmax) was very laissez faire style. Moderation was not DDO's issue at the time. Moderation is however DART's only issue. How can we have an active thriving community when our most vocal members that encourage debate and discourse are constantly being banned or in fear of being banned because someone else has the right to feel offended by something that was said? 

If we never discuss or debate controversial issues, ingorance will remain and persist. The only way to triumph over inorance is to prove ignorance wrong. You may not change the mind of the ignoramus themselves, but by wining a debate against them you are proving to the world that you provided the better argument. People who may be leaning on the side of the ignorant party are more likely to look upon your debate or discussion and be convinced by your side if you debated well. Silencing people does not do this. Silencing people and over punishing people for offensive opinions is the EXACT opposite of what should be encouraged on a website that brags to be about debate.

Now if you feel offended by something, you have a very nifty block tool. Personally speaking, blocking is a weak move for a "debater" but in circumstances where you feel someone is going out of there way to harass you in a real way, blocking is the perfect tool to combat that. Why should we need any more moderation than involved than that? Can we simply choose not to avoid interacting with or viewing a persons posts we find distasteful? 

My point is this: The risk to voting rationalmadman is that he can veto moderation decisions even in cases where more leniency could be an option. And you can bet your ass that he will, because RM has actively advocated heavier bans and punishments from the mods in almost every situation excluding the ban of himself. Call it narccissistic if you want. Call it what it is. 

But the harm to voting wylted? Virtually doesn't exist. Wylted is all about freedom of speech. The dude has said some of the more controversial things on the site. Whether his motives are secretly to "stir the pot" or to actually cause discussion or discourse are not for us to decide. We should be encouraging people however to respond the things like that logically if we are to call this a debate site. We have our own tools to block those that offend us and ignore them.

So in the end, there is massive harm potential from RationalMadman as president VS wylted in regards to the position and its pull on moderation. Anyone can host a debate tournament of their own time. I am all for community engangement, but at the cost of freedom of speech it's simply not worth having RM as president for a little debate tournament. I have theories that this move for president has more narcissistic motivators for both parties than it does for actual community development, so if this is a "pick a lesser of two evils situation" than voting for Wylted is definitely the move here based on the actual harm RationalMadman can actually cause to this community and people who take this website serious enough past the age of 16. 


RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
Lmao, I can't defend against this without violating the rule of not campaigning outside my campaign thread, so I will wait for the mods to allow me to. Otherwise, I'll address this inside my thread.

Also you are not blocked, you are literally still on my friends list on discord.
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
Lmao, I can't defend against this without violating the rule of not campaigning outside my campaign thread, so I will wait for the mods to allow me to. Otherwise, I'll address this inside my thread.
I am sure the mods will allow you to "defend" yourself. Mods would be silly not to allow logical discourse on a debate website, and that is hardly "Campaigning". Though I am not sure what there really is to defend. All this thread is doing is explaining the harms of your ideals and how they can effect the presidency position. This is literally just an agree to dis-agree situation between me and you, where I am highlighting the negatives effects of your view points in regards to how they will negatively impact others. 

Also you are not blocked, you are literally still on my friends list on discord.
You unblocked me so I could play in your mafia game and we could respond to each other, If it weren't for mafia I would still be blocked. However my current status of whether I am blocked or not is kind of far from the point. The fact that it happened in the first place is the thing I am trying to highlight here. 
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
And the fact that blocking to me is not always permanent is something you wish to completely ignore? Of course it is, since your agenda here is precisely to demonise me but I will ask you this, can you please fully tell the Borat conversation rather than your abridged version?
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
And the fact that blocking to me is not always permanent is something you wish to completely ignore?
I fail to see how perma blocking vs temp blocking is relevant. Me and you were having a logical discussion, and I was silenced because you dis-agreed with my opinions. Silencing other people's opinions because they offend you is the anti-thesis of debate, and not something that should be wanted in a president of a debating website. 

Of course it is, since your agenda here is precisely to demonise me but I will ask you this, can you please fully tell the Borat conversation rather than your abridged version?
I can do you one better and screenshot the conversation if I can find it. Give me a sec. 
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
Silenced to me personally or silenced to speak others on a platform that I control?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
no dont screenshot
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
I will just say that I said more than you said I said about Borat and that waterphoenix also had done a lot more to me than that one incident, it's not important.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
I will wait for the mods to allow me to campaign in this thread then I will defend it all. I take a break now, thank you. No need to screenshot.
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
no dont screenshot
Ah too late. You must have remembered how unhinged you became towards the end of the conversation.

To anyone interested in the screenshots of the Sacha Baron Cohen "Debate", please, for your viewing pleasure: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6syeLao-tgy8S6VZt6_5oOOz5JBgdHIY8o_c3LtYk4/edit?usp=sharing
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
Silenced to me personally or silenced to speak others on a platform that I control?
I am saying if you are elected president you will have the ability to have a final say on moderation decisions. How you view the world and how willing you are to silence others opinions is extremely relevant here. 
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
If I were to dox you or Wylted against your will and use things you'd said elsewhere, I know what the mods would do to me.

That said, we will see the outcome. Not like you showed the full convo anyway, you skipped parts in the middle but I do not care.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
I will wait for permission to post to this thread with campaigning.
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
If I were to dox you or Wylted against your will and use things you'd said elsewhere, I know what the mods would do to me.
This is not Doxxing. That is an insane take. Also you literally called me out as if I was leaving things out of the conversation. You asked me to back it up, I back it up. You realize it makes you look bad and suddenly it's doxxing? You insulted me several times throughout this conversation, all I did was laugh and point out how silly you were being lol.

That said, we will see the outcome. Not like you showed the full convo anyway, you skipped parts in the middle but I do not care.
I did not skip anything, there are several others in that discord that can go through the conversation and post anything I left behind if I did indeed leave anything out. I have no incentive to leave anything out of this lol. 

I will wait for permission to post to this thread with campaigning.
Both you and wylted have mis-understood the guidelines for campaigning. That is in reference to making a new thread advertising yourself. Nowhere does it say you cannot respond to others. Ragnar literally just clarified this with wylted. 
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
You did leave things out of the conversation but I side with not wanting you to show it.

I believe Sacha Baron Cohen is a morally ambiguous comedian who sides more towards evil than good with his means of operating. I will tell more later on it as you're baiting me into suggesting I'd censor him which isn't the truth, I just want him exposed for what he did to that Romanian village that he mocked and defamed in Borat and said was Khazakstani, had an abortion doctor, prostitute and other things.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
If you didn't skip in the middle you skipped what came before then.
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
I am not baiting you into anything. The whole conversation was to highlight how instead of trying to have a conversation with me about a subject that was controversial to you, you decided to:
1. Insult me by calling me an "insensitive Fvcking cvnt" 
2. Leave the discord
3. Block me on Debateart


All of this is to highlight how your outlook on moderation will be to encourage bans on people who have controversial opinions, instead of letting them debate them. Debate is what this site is intended for is it not?

RationalMadman only is okay with debate on topics that do not offend him. 
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
That is how I reacted when emotional in a situation that didn't punish anybody.

The only part of that which was unprofessional was to use the word 'cunt'.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
Are you saying that Wylted hasn't said worse things?
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Americans really have elevated farcical elections to an artform. 

badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Wylted is the Joe Biden of this election. RM is Trump and Hillary. 
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
If you didn't skip in the middle you skipped what came before then.
Okay I added the initial post you made to the document. Should have everything now. I don't think it helps your case much but there you have it. 
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
That is how I reacted when emotional in a situation that didn't punish anybody.

The only part of that which was unprofessional was to use the word 'cunt'.
Emotional outrage is one thing, but you do believe in censorship. No one cares about the use of some expletives. It's the part where you are defending people's right to be offended. Your own campaign resembles this same stuff. There is no denying it. If your first response is to ban, block, or silence people with opinions you don't like, and your role as president gives you a direct say in that, this is a very dangerous position for you to be in for a site that badly needs growth. We should not be encouraging more bans or stricter bans. 

Are you saying that Wylted hasn't said worse things?
No. Also please don't pull a Cathy Newman




RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
Cathy Newman move sums up your entire OP

You think me blocking is me banning, ignoring the difference. I block to cease 1 on 1 contact with someone or with a place if I leave the server. Banning disallows another to interact with a place/group against their will.
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
Cathy Newman move sums up your entire OP
On the contrary, I never try to put words in your mouth. I literally qouted the thing YOU SAID in your own campaign about moderation. The Sacha Baron Cohen debate and blocking incident is just one example of how you believe silencing those with offensive takes is an appropriate move. But this sentiment has been demonstrated by you on this website on multiple occasions. 

You think me blocking is me banning, ignoring the difference. I block to cease 1 on 1 contact with someone or with a place if I leave the server. Banning disallows another to interact with a place/group against their will.
Which you also support doing.  "I would use any sway I had as president to push the mods to respect and notice interactions that drive people off of the website or alternatively drive them to act more hostile."

You give more credence to those offended then you do the supposed "offenders". This is a mentality that will do the opposite of what you suppose it will. Banning  your most vocal members does not encourage or promote debate. People already have the tools the need to avoid others if they choose without moderation intervention, yet you actively want to sway moderator opinions to encourage banning. These are your own words I am qouting. 
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
Actually it does promote debate and here is how:

By silencing one severely toxic and perhaps severely racist, misogynystic and whatever else type of severely offensive/degrading user, you will attract far more anonymous viewers of the website to sign up and start debating.

They take one look at a severe Wylted or Mesmer thread or just see BrotherDThomas' behaviour and they go yeesh, not the site for me. Then, even if they'd sign up in spite of that, they see the others reacting to the toxic environment and threads and they then go ah... Probably not the site for me.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
Which you also support doing.  "I would use any sway I had as president to push the mods to respect and notice interactions that drive people off of the website or alternatively drive them to act more hostile."

You give more credence to those offended then you do the supposed "offenders". This is a mentality that will do the opposite of what you suppose it will. Banning  your most vocal members does not encourage or promote debate. People already have the tools the need to avoid others if they choose without moderation intervention, yet you actively want to sway moderator opinions to encourage banning. These are your own words I am qouting. 
Okay, fair enough, I now see exactly where you are coming from and would like to say this:

I meant moderation as in not only bans, I'd want to encourage warnings and such before things got too bad that they were bannable by the length of toxicity by the user.
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
Actually it does promote debate and here is how:

By silencing one severely toxic and perhaps severely racist, misogynystic and whatever else type of user, you will attract far more anonymous viewers of the website to sign up and start debating.

They take one look a severe Wylted or Mesmer thread or just see BrotherDThomas' behaviour and they go yeesh, not the site for me. Then, even if they'd sign up in spite of that, they see the others reacting to the toxic environment and threads and they then go ah... Probably not the site for me.

I don't think this is substantiated at all actually. In fact, I think it is usually rather the opposite. On DDO some of the biggest threads were threads where a very unpopular opinion was introduced as a thread title. 

Example 1: GWL-CPA's take on confirmation bias in the voting process https://www.debate.org/forums/Debate.org/topic/31943/ Nearly 700 posts of people bickering and arguing. Many newer members with less than 1000 posts, arguably participating because of the controversy.

Example 2: WriterDave's "Edit to civilize" https://www.debate.org/forums/Debate.org/topic/20753/ A thread with 1.1k posts. This topic of contention is about the exact thing we happen to be discussing now; Whether mods should participate in silencing free speech to protect the sanctity of others feelings. One of the wildest and active threads on the website's history. 

Example 3: A controversial debate on race and intelligence https://www.debate.org/debates/Caucasians-are-inherently-more-intelligent-than-African-Americans/1/ Garnered 38 votes, and there was nearly 300 comments. 

Now obviously debate.org was a bigger site and was around much longer here, but if you want an DART examples of controversial debate that did well in context to this much smaller site here is one:


Threads like "why are we banning wylted" and the thread where RM was banned are other examples. Controversy breeds activity. It promotes people to come and post and to opine. Thats what people come to these websites for RM. They come to say "Hey I dis-agree with that opinion! Here's why."

The more controversial the opinion the more likely we are to have big discussion. I don't see much of an negative impact from these drama situations for the overall health of a debate site. TBH it's just unsubstantiated that there are any real negative consequences at all. 







RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
I am not here to censor all drama, I never said that was my aim. You're trying to pretend I have an agenda that I don't by twisting my words out of context.

A serial bully or person spamming white supremacy threads isn't the same as someone making lively drama threads with tough clickbait titles that get the mind stirring.
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,918
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
Okay, fair enough, I now see exactly where you are coming from and would like to say this:

I meant moderation as in not only bans, I'd want to encourage warnings and such before things got too bad that they were bannable by the length of toxicity by the user.

I am mostly worried about who gets to decide what constitutes abuse and the reasons why. Where is the line between controversial opinion and just an opinion you find offensive?

"If rules are not enforced on the initial abuser, the victim ends up with no outlets to feel safe other than complete retreat or retaliation." You said this recently. Based on your reaction to my defense of Sacha Baron Cohen, hypothetically if that conversation took place here and not on discord, you could advocate a warning to me because my opinion is "too controversial" or "abusive". You are the president, which means you have a role in deciding what is abusive. I don't think members should be warned, much less banned because they have controversial opinions. 

Also your statements seem to support that you want more enforcement rather than less. For example:

"The mods would need to almost be 'too heavy handed' at first with how many ROs they set out."
"On top of ROs, I think there needs to be a lot of active intervention, locking of threads etc."

These are the types of statements that worry me about mod intervention. That and I have argued with you in the past in concern with wylted's ban, which you were a supporter of.