Is Original Sin an Example of Kin Punishment?

Author: Reece101

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#1
Reece101
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If so, the wiki article of kin punishment needs to be updated. 

Original wiki entry: Kin punishment is the practice of punishing the family members of someone accused of a crime, either in place of or in addition to the perpetrator. It refers to the principle of a family sharing responsibility for a crime committed by one of its members, and is a form of collective punishment. Kin punishment has been used by authoritarian states as a form of extortion, harassment, or persecution. Countries that have practiced kin punishment include pre-Christian European cultures, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and non-Western cultures including China, Japan, and North Korea.“

#2
Polytheist-Witch
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WTF does this have to do with religion.
#3
rosends
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@Reece101
If one viewed the consequence of the fall in the garden as a punishment, then one might see that fating every human to be born with a stain of a sin committed by an ancestor is kin punishment. If one does NOT see the consequence as a punishment, but as something else, then it is not.
#4
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@Polytheist-Witch

Original sin is the Christian doctrine that holds that humans, through the fact of birth, inherit a tainted nature in need of regeneration and a proclivity to sinful conduct. The biblical bases for the belief are generally found in Genesis 3, in a line in psalm 51:5, and in Paul's Epistle to the Romans, 5:12-21.

Hence this topic being in the Religion forum.
#5
Fruit_Inspector
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No.

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
~Ezekiel 18:20
#6
Stephen
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@Fruit_Inspector
The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; ~Ezekiel 18:20




Numbers 14:18. The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. KJV

He certainly appears to be a contradictory fellow.

#7
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@Stephen
People can be forgiven of their actions, or the actions of their relations.
Though,
Alcoholics parents, breed alcoholic children.

I see no contradiction between forgiveness and causation, they are separate, 'not the same.
#8
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@Reece101
Original Sin is an example of sexual repression and the development thereof.

Ooooooo.....Put some clothes on and cover up your bits.


And Kin Punishment is just another example of how some people can be arseholes.
#9
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What does original sin have to do with kin punishment. Kin punishment has to do with the fact that most places didn't have established legal systems where people that have done something wrong could be punished. This is one of those I don't have anything else to post but I want to post something cuz I want a b**** about it so let's come up with something stupid and relate them to one another.
#10
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@Stephen
Numbers 14:18. The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. KJV

He certainly appears to be a contradictory fellow.
There are temporal consequences that are at times experienced by future generations. The decision of those voting in Communist regimes is a great illustration of how future generations are impacted by past decisions.

But that is not what the doctrine of Original Sin is about.
#11
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@Reece101
The original sin doctrine is a bunch of rubbish, a misconception. The only thing the story of Adam and Eve reveals is the weak nature of the flesh, it doesn't represent a situation that we all must pay the price for their decisions. 
Adam and Eve represent mankind as a whole, but we aren't accountable for what they personally did. We have our own individual struggles with the nature and temptations of the flesh, the only "original" problem was a principle. Jesus pointed out that problem in the Gospels....that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. They that sow to the flesh reap corruption but those that sow to the spirit reap the things of the spirit. " For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace". 
#12
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@Reece101
A difficult question.

In a sense, as Eve was punished for what the bible says is Adam's sin.

Eve was exonerated by scriptures that recognized that Eve was deceived and had no evil intent. 

Regardless, Christians sing of Adam's sin as being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

God planned sin, yet strangely punished us for keeping his plan on the rails.

Crazy that, but it matches natures master plan for us.

Without sin or evil, humanity would go extinct. No guff.

Regards
DL
 
#13
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@Fruit_Inspector
What do you see as the doctrine of Original Sin?

Have you compared it to the Jewish Original Virtue?

Please read my post above and indicate if Adam did the right thing in keeping God's plan on track.

Regards
DL
#14
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@Polytheist-Witch
Was punishing Eve for what Adam did not an act of punishing kin?

Was Eve not kin to Adam, as well as all other women, that had to bear the same penalty?

Regards
DL

 
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@Fruit_Inspector
"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
~Ezekiel 18:20

That is what Jesus taught, --- yet Christians see him as dying for them,  --- which Jesus would see as a Capital Sin.

Christians are lining up to sin to be saved.

Satan loves it.

Regards
DL


#16
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@rosends
It is a coming of age yarn that is praised, along with sin, by all intelligent people.

Without sin and evil, we go extinct.

Christianity is just reporting what we have learned from nature.

If not for supernatural beliefs, all would know and recognize that fact.

Mind you, the Christian apologists don't even know what Christianity is.

Regards
DL

#17
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Whatever one believes about the doctrine of Original Sin, it must be in accordance with the text of the Bible. Ezekiel 18 makes clear that no one will be condemned to death because of Adam's sin, but rather their own.

However, that does not logically contradict the doctrine of imputation.
#18
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@Fruit_Inspector
Are you saying that God would logically want his great plan derailed?

As to the text, I am reporting what I read.

We are talking interpretation that are in conflict between Christian and Jewish interpretation of a Jewish myth.

Not wise to ignore them. Original Virtue and our passing the tests in Eden with out happy fault of sinning.

As I stated, without it we would go extinct.

Regards
DL


#19
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@GnosticChristianBishop
That is what Jesus taught, --- yet Christians see him as dying for them,  --- which Jesus would see as a Capital Sin.

Jesus the Jew would have been appalled that a whole  new religion had spring up in his name. 
#20
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Are you saying that God would logically want his great plan derailed?
What is this "great plan" you are referring to? What is the biblical basis for claiming such a great plan? And how does what I have said so far derail this plan?


We are talking interpretation that are in conflict between Christian and Jewish interpretation of a Jewish myth.
No, we are looking at the historical writings of an Old Testament prophet and trying to determine what he meant by what he said.


Not wise to ignore them. Original Virtue and our passing the tests in Eden with out happy fault of sinning.

As I stated, without it we would go extinct.
If Jewish tradition does not align with the text of the Old Testament based on sound principles of interpretation, then it is absolutely wise to ignore them.
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@Stephen
I agree and think Jesus would disown the garbage Christianity we have today.

Homophobes and misogynous a hole, religions produce by the score.
 
Regards
DL
#22
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@Fruit_Inspector

It is a shame you do not really want to consider both the Christian Original Sin concept and Jewish view or Original Virtue on this.

Bottom line.

You do not sin, you go extinct.

Sin is necessary to our evolution.

Regards
DL


#23
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@GnosticChristianBishop
It is a shame you do not really want to consider both the Christian Original Sin concept and Jewish view or Original Virtue on this.

Bottom line.

You do not sin, you go extinct.

Sin is necessary to our evolution.
It has nothing to do with whether I will consider an opposing view or not. You have given no justification for your assertion that sinlessness will make humans go extinct. The text of the Bible simply doesn't support that.

People can believe whatever they want, but some will be right and some will be wrong. 
#24
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@Fruit_Inspector
"You have given no justification for your assertion that sinlessness will make humans go extinct."

I have but you did not get it.

It is obvious, but let me ----- give something to the debate/discussion.


Evolutionary theology posits that all we ever do as we evolve is cooperate or compete. 

Cooperation is seen as good because no loser is created.

Competition is seen as evil because it creates a loser to the competition.

All human to human conflict stems from us competing.

Take that necessary evil, sin to religion, and we go extinct.

That is why stupid Christians sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Do you see how it has to also be a part of natures plan?

Regards
DL
#25
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@GnosticChristianBishop
"You have given no justification for your assertion that sinlessness will make humans go extinct."

I have but you did not get it.
Let me clarify. You have given no biblical justification for your assertion that sinlessness will make humans go extinct.


Evolutionary theology posits that all we ever do as we evolve is cooperate or compete. 

Cooperation is seen as good because no loser is created.

Competition is seen as evil because it creates a loser to the competition.

All human to human conflict stems from us competing.
Why should I care anything about "evolutionary theology"?
#26
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@GnosticChristianBishop
@Fruit_Inspector
James 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
#27
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Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
#28
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@EtrnlVw
What is the specific point that you are making with this text?
#29
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@Fruit_Inspector
Seriously? that man is accountable for his own actions, not the actions of another....and not any supposed original sins, but that which he does himself. Also, that if man fails, it is not God's doing either, nor God's "plan". 
#30
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@EtrnlVw
Seriously? that man is accountable for his own actions, not the actions of another....and not any supposed original sins, but that which he does himself. 
I already made the point that each person is accountable for their own sins in post #5.