What do Jews believe the afterlife is like?

Author: TheUnderdog
David

Posts

Total: 39
Topic's author
#1
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
I'm getting so many different answers from this one Jewish site that I am so confused.


The Torah, the most important Jewish text, has no clear reference to afterlife at all. It would seem that the dead go down to Sheol, a kind of Hades, where they live an ethereal, shadowy existence (Num. 16:33; Ps. 6:6; Isa. 38:18)


Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence (Dan. 12:2; see also Isa. 26:19; Ezek. 37:1 ff.).

Thus, IV Maccabees, for instance, though on the whole tending toward Pharisaism in its theology, promises everlasting life with God to those Jewish martyrs who preferred death to the violation of His Torah, but is silent about resurrection


This year remains a purgatorial period for the soul, or according to another view only for the wicked soul, after which the righteous go to paradise, Gan Eden, and the wicked to hell, Geihinnom (Gehinnom; Shab. 152b–153a; Tanh. Va-Yikra 8). The actual condition of the soul after death is unclear.

I'm not even 25% done with the article, and the site found 4 contradicting things that happen to you when you die.

#2
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
The Jewish idea of the technical aspects of an afterlife is a matter of much discussion. Early biblical/textual sources give scant reference and even less explanation. Post biblical source flesh out a little more, explaining that there is a next world, judgment, resurrection of the dead in messianic days, and other stuff. But the details and structure are not universally agreed upon by Jewish authorities.

An over simplified version would include the following ideas:

after death, the immortal soul is judged. There are 3 basic categories -- fully good, fully evil and middling. Most of us are middling. There is a period of time after death when the soul goes through what can best be thought of as a period of re-education, of realization about responsibility for having committed sins. At this point, the soul is separated from the divine presence and that stinks. Re-education prepares the soul for a reconnection to the divine. That time period is up to a year, but we assume less.

People who are purely evil are separated from God eternally and those who are purely good connect to the divine presence imemdiately.

The idea of a resurrection, of an eternal (physical) life or like that, and where that fits in to this process and the arrival of a future messiah is where things get confusing.

a side note -- the next world, and any form of "eternal reward" is for those who are Jewish (as measured by their adherence to the canon of 613+ laws) and non-Jews who are measured against the obligation to follow the 7 Noachide laws.
#3
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
The Hebrew Bible is relatively vague about the afterlife and Sheol, and doesn't focus on it much. When it does address the afterlife, its description varies. This leaves individual Jews a lot of room to form their own interpretations of the afterlife. It also leaves scholars and theologians plenty to discuss and debate over.

I find it fascinating that the afterlife does not seem to be a priority in the Hebrew Bible. It's so atypical of religion as I have experienced it.
Topic's author
#4
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@rosends
There is a period of time after death when the soul goes through what can best be thought of as a period of re-education

There is a period of time after death when the soul goes through what can best be thought of as a period of re-education
Who does the re education, if the divine presence is separated during this time?

What are the requirements to be in the purely evil, middling, and purely good category?
Topic's author
#5
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Castin
Why would someone want to be Jewish if they weren't focused on the afterlife?  I thought the whole point of being in a religion was so that you got a chance at some afterlife.
#6
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@TheUnderdog
Why would someone want to be Jewish if they weren't focused on the afterlife?  I thought the whole point of being in a religion was so that you got a chance at some afterlife.
I am not Jewish and will not presume to know a Jewish person's answer.

However, I feel that your question, as well as the statement in your second sentence, have been heavily influenced by Christianity. You suppose that a religion's primary purpose is to allay anxiety about the afterlife, or to use the afterlife as a cudgel to correct and control behavior in this life. But the Hebrew Bible shows us that that understanding of religion may be narrow. The Hebrews seem to have had different theological priorities.

When we are studying Judaism, we should not do so through a Christian lens. This can be hard, since Christianity has so heavily influenced how we see religion.
#7
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,338
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
Lot of variation in that Christian lens though,
Christians I've known, and Christian perspectives I've enjoyed reading,
Did not seem to make or believe "the whole point of being in a religion was so that you got a chance at some afterlife."
Topic's author
#8
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Castin
The Hebrews seem to have had different theological priorities.
Like what?  If their goal was to become a better person, you don't need religion to do this.  You can do it by living according to your own morals (with some exceptions.  If you think raping is moral, you still shouldn't be allowed to rape).
#9
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,338
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
Have you a high view of the uneducated?
Topic's author
#10
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Lemming
I fail to see what that has to do with this, but uneducated Republicans take too much welfare for my tastes, especially since they vote anti welfare.
#11
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,338
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
My argument, is instruction, introduction, of ideas,
Creates progress, where before, none was to be had.

It doesn't matter whether it's Confucianism or Christianity,
They are introductions,
Systems, history,
Great momentums of tumbling giants.
#12
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@TheUnderdog
The Hebrews seem to have had different theological priorities.
Like what?
Again, I am not Jewish, but my understanding of Judaism's theological priorities are as follows:

  • To keep the Covenant.
  • To obey and uphold God's law as laid down by Moses.
  • Tradition, family, Torah.
And if you keep these values, you will receive reward in this life.

"What happens when I die?" is a big question, and one we all ask, but there are other questions that can be just as central to a religion. How do I navigate the stormy seas of life? How do I know what's right and wrong? How can I be happy and achieve prosperity? Where do I belong?

If their goal was to become a better person, you don't need religion to do this.  You can do it by living according to your own morals (with some exceptions.  If you think raping is moral, you still shouldn't be allowed to rape).
Well, as an atheist I obviously agree that you don't need religion to be moral or to live well. But the peoples of the past needed to infuse moral standards with divine authority in order for those standards to have broad efficacy.
#13
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
Those are fair questions and I grant that I haven't the faintest idea other than to fall back on some unsatisfying "angels" or "heavenly forces."
Imagine if you (generic) had to watch a movie of your life and recognize each of the moments and actions that were contrary to divine will and fess up to that. You would be ashamed but would have to "grow" in the sense of understanding your actual relationship to the full divine presence.

In terms of the groupings, we assume that there are very few who are truly evil (speaking about from among the Jewish people -- I'm not deciding if Hitler's soul is educatable or not). The 11th chapter of the talmudic tractate Sanhedrin goes through categories and individuals who have forfeited some aspect of the next world. I will quote a summary of the Mishna (the heart of the oral law) but there is substantial explanation and explication regarding this so please don't jump to any conclusions about meaning from just reading the isolated version I am pasting:

The following have no share in the world to come:
1.One who says that the Torah does not teach that there is a world to come, or that Hash-m did not give the Torah, or an Apikorus;
2.R. Akiva says, even one who reads foreign books (this will be explained).
3.One who whispers "Kol ha'Machalah... Lo Asim Alecha Ki Ani Hash-m Rofe'echa" over a wound.
4.Aba Sha'ul says, even one who pronounces Hash-m's name like it is written.
(c)Three kings and four commoners have no share in the world to come:
1.The kings are Yarav'am, Achav and Menasheh.
2.R. Yehudah says, Menasheh has a share in the world to come, for it says "va'Yispalel Elav... va'Yishma Techinaso va'Yashivehu Yerushalayim l'Malchuso"!
3.Chachamim: He returned him to his kingship, but He did not return him to life in the world to come.
4.The commoners are Bil'am, Do'eg, Achitofel and Gechazi.


The bottom line is that it is subject to books and books' worth of discussion and argument. As to what non-Jews don't ever qualify (and yes, not all the people listed above are Jews) that is also the subject of discussion -- are those 4 listed archetypes or is it a closed list.

As to the other question you asked about 

Why would someone want to be Jewish if they weren't focused on the afterlife?  I thought the whole point of being in a religion was so that you got a chance at some afterlife.

that is easier to answer -- Judaism sees all people as having the opportunity for an afterlife, not just Jews.  As such, there should be no draw to convert to Judaism based on getting a chance at anything in particular.
Topic's author
#14
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@rosends
When you say certain people aren't going to be in the world to come, does that mean they get eternal torment in hell, or does it mean that they merely cease to exist?
#15
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
Much of the answer to that would be tied up in the debate about whether the resurrection is before or after the next world. The way I understand it, the soul is eternal, but being in the divine presence is only for those souls who (eventually) deserve it. So I would assume that the soul of one who is unredeemably evil simply has to be constantly reminded of not being in God's presence. I guess that the best way to connect this is to the story of the dybbuk. That is the soul of, for example, a suicide who will be tormented and followed by heavenly forces for eternity (unless it escapes into a human body...weird stuff) -- read here for more

but it is not even a clear concept so just take it as a piece of a complicated puzzle.

#16
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Lemming
Lot of variation in that Christian lens though,
Christians I've known, and Christian perspectives I've enjoyed reading,
Did not seem to make or believe "the whole point of being in a religion was so that you got a chance at some afterlife."
Almost missed this. @ me, bruh.

I definitely agree there is variation, as there is in any major religion. However, my experience with Christians is that heaven and hell play a large role in their psychology and their faith. They probably wouldn't say "the whole point" of their religion is the afterlife, of course. They would probably say the whole point of their religion is Jesus, and salvation through him. That doesn't mean that heaven is not the end goal of their efforts, the finish line of their life, the thing that they are ultimately moving towards. What does "salvation through him" ultimately mean? Being saved from hell -- and being granted the reward of heaven.
#17
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,338
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Castin
Fair perspective,
Sometimes I comment more one the conversation, than a person, and avoid @ing people, if I don't feel my comment 'adds enough to the conversation, to be worth notifying them.

Why comment at all, if it doesn't add enough to the conversation, well, sometimes one just likes to aside remark, at no one in particular.
#18
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
They have a heaven and a smiting the soul after you fail purgatory type deal.
#19
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
There are plenty of spiritual practices that have an afterlife that don't have anything to do with gods. Religion is the organized worship of gods. The belief in eternal spirit predates most religions it's called animism. With the pagan religions animism developed with the gods and you have this sort of nature/shaministic / cycles of the year religions that involve gods that have things to do with natural occurrences. Eventually a lot of those natural occurrences are attributed to one God and you end up with the monotheist religions. When I look at Judaism part of the reason I don't think the afterlife is all that important to them is you have one God and he tells the Jews he's the God of their people if you look at their stories he has pulled them through things and out of the fire over and over again so there's I believe this idea that unless you're really evil and you completely blow off the law then you have some type of afterlife that's beneficial or not bad. Sort of like once Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden they still interacted with God they just weren't in Paradise so I don't think Jews ever believe they're truly cut off from God unless they're absolutely horrible people. But I'm not Jewish that's just my impression of it. 
#20
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Lemming
Fair perspective,
Sometimes I comment more one the conversation, than a person, and avoid @ing people, if I don't feel my comment 'adds enough to the conversation, to be worth notifying them.

Why comment at all, if it doesn't add enough to the conversation, well, sometimes one just likes to aside remark, at no one in particular.
Bah -- we all make side remarks! You can @ me for anything. If we worried about how much we add to the conversation, we would never have spinoff conversations -- which in my experience are usually more fun.
#21
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,060
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
An orgy of genital mutilation and head butting walls perhaps.

And other very sensible stuff.
#22
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
@zedvictor4

I think I understand your comment about genital mutilation but I wonder what you mean by  "Head butting walls".

If you could explain it, I would appreciate that. Thanks.
#23
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
Just to supplement what I wrote and show you that there are varying opinions, I just saw this question and answer come up and they might be informative.

#24
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,574
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@rosends
 but I wonder what you mean by  "Head butting walls".
I think this is what Zed was refering to:  MK Bezalel Smotrich, who leads the far-right Religious Zionism party, said  "We 'obsessively bang our heads against the wall' when it comes to a Palestinian state, when it comes to the Regulation Law and the United Jerusalem Law, and when it comes to many other things," Smotrich said. "There's no reason or justification for not banging our heads into the wall for the moral and ethical values which are so significant and integral to the religious community, the State of Israel, and Israel's future."
#25
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@FLRW
Oh, that's a figure of speech unrelated to anything religious. It is being used here to describe the futility of advancing a non-winning position vis-a-vis secular law. The religious position must be championed even when it will get no where.

#26
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,060
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@rosends
It was an exaggeration of the actions of devout Jews at the wailing wall.

Circumcision and stylised rituals....Ideological embellishments that make no real difference.

Would a GOD be so stupid, as to think that such behaviour, was or had ever been necessary.


And the same ritual unnecessity generally applies to all religions.

The necessity of GOD or MEN?

Easy question me thinks.



#27
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@zedvictor4
Oh. Having just spent some time at the wall I see your exaggeration as not making any sense but w/e.

#28
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,060
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@rosends
Your inability to see sense is perhaps self explanatory, but w/e.
#29
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@zedvictor4
What "sense" am I missing? How much time have you spent at the Western Wall and what action do you think you are exaggerating that manifests itself as "head butting walls"?

Alternatively, if you could explain in what sense you are using the word "exaggerate" to contextualize your characterization of whatever behavior you witnessed, that would be helpful. The only definition I can intuit that would make sense would not underscore what I thought the point of your initial statement was, so I would appreciate the clarification.
#30
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,238
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@zedvictor4
An orgy of genital mutilation and head butting walls perhaps.

And other very sensible stuff.
I can only assume you are hyperbolically referring to the way many devout Jews pray at the Western Wall, swaying backward and forward and periodically touching their heads to the wall.

Zed, you've said a lot I agree with in the past, and I think circumcision is a fair target of criticism, but this description of Jews praying at the wall crossed the line for me. It's antisemitic, it's insensitive. Consider that wall's history and what it represents to Jews. Is this really the kind of remark you want to make?