Why was the OT written?

Author: keithprosser

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#1
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Stephen:
I would be very interested to read your speculations as to why the gospellers even took the time to write bible stories that  "can be junked straight away." according to you.
Around 590 BCE the Jews were conquered by the Babylonians and began the 'Babylonian Exile'.  It would have been easy for the Jewish people to disappear from history, as had the majority of Hebrew tribes after the Assyrian Exile 150 years earlier.

Clearly, that did not happen.   I suggest the exiled YHWHist priests and scribes began writing the legends, myths and customs of the Jews (and the predecessors the Hebrews) in order to define, maintain and teach their version of history.
 



#2
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The OT was written as a veiled attempt at astrotheology.
#3
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Ya Read one scripture , you decipher it, you feel happy with what you made from it. 

You then read 5 scriptures, you decipher them, you now know 3 out of them 5 you translated good, i mean reallllll good. 

You're now 20 scriptures in. You suddenly realize that your scripture translations are SPOT ON. 

Now you've translated 30 scriptures , there is now no doubt whatsoever that you ard in tbe top 100 of Scripture translators that has evvvvvver lived. 
Your good.
And five of the thirty scriptures you just deciphered you are close to certain you do then better then any other being that has ever lived or will ever live.
You've a certain quirky way that translates the scriptures so so good. 

Coming to the end of reading the bible it is blatantly obvious that God had this book written and past on over time to end up with you. 
You being the reason why God " MADE " the bible. 

you can believe in a god until the cows come home.
But without joining a group / picking the correct true holy book. 
Without a holy book having a belief in god is nothing more then having a belief in God. 

So knowing that making a religious group is a " STRICT FOR PROFIT " business. 
The answer to your question is , well i think is. 
The OT was made to get a few things the creator's of the OT want. Commandment #1 is the gist of why the bible OT was written.
And from writing it certain people gained. 
People will ALWAYS take advantage of people.
Tricking Ten men to work in ya farm for the love and glory of God ( amen ) is ummmmmmmm, well its handy.  

The OT was written for the purpose of gaining stuff.
Running numbers , ponzi schemes came later on.  


#4
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Coming to the end of reading the bible it is blatantly obvious that God had this book written and past on over time to end up with you. 
You being the reason why God " MADE " the bible. 

Have you even read the entirety of the Gospels? do so, and tell me you're not in love with the Jesus character and what He taught......come on my brother, pick one Gospel and read it through and tell me what ya think about Jesus and what He did, taught and went through. Challenge for the year even though I know you don't read....read ONE Gospel and get back with me. Just one....

you can believe in a god until the cows come home.
But without joining a group / picking the correct true holy book. 
Without a holy book having a belief in god is nothing more then having a belief in God. 

Isn't that the point son, to believe in the reality of God despite what any book says? why would it matter about any religious group? Did you know, that religious group God and non-religious group God are the same lol? the difference being that one has labels, teachings and the other not. But both realities God exists and religious groups are irrelevant. You can experience God without religion, I'll put it to ya that way and I can explain....

#5
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@ET
pick one Gospel and read it through and tell me what ya think about Jesus and what He did, taught and went through
And then do the same with a Superman comic, ya just gotta love Superman.
#6
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@disgusted
Superman got nothing on Jesus boy. But thanks for the opinion. Anything else? 
#7
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@ET
They are identical, numpty. I suggest you stick to exploring your godworlds, you are likely to run into them both.
#8
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@disgusted
Yeah, superman and Jesus are identical, that's why they have different names and purposes?
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@ET
Yeah, superman and Jesus are identical, that's why they have different names and purposes?
Quick run to your kindy teacher and ask her for an argument you can use that doesn't confirm the fool you are.
#10
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@disgusted
That is what I thought old man. You gots nothin, and never will...
#11
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@ET
But unlike you I have no need to pretend I have something just so my irrational fears are kept at bay and I can live in my oblivious fantasy world.
#12
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Bammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,  mic drop. 
#13
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@disgusted
You love it when I give you attention don't you lol? don't get too excited it won't last long. 
#14
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The entirety of what Christians call The Old Testament was not written after the Babylonian exhile.


What are these scriptures used for today? They are used for education. They were certainly used for this purpose back in the day as well.



The Jews were intended to be a nation of priests. The Persians recognized this enough to send them back after womping the Babylonians, and even under Greek and Roman occupation the land of Israel was pretty much a temple state/clericocracy.


#15
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@keithprosser

I suggest the exiled YHWHist priests and scribes began writing the legends, myths and customs of the Jews (and the predecessors the Hebrews) in order to define, maintain and teach their version of history.


So your  well thought out speculation brought you to the amazing conclusion that they wrote these things top preserve and teach their history.

I have to shake my head in wonder at the time you must have spent coming to the speculative conclusion Keith. 

It may have slipped your mind that this is actually what people actually do when they want to actually  preserve their history for future generations.

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#16
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@Stephen
they wrote these things top preserve and teach their history.
I didn't say 'history' - I said 'myths and legends'.   However the writers intended it to be taken as actual history.

For example, archaeology and anthropology indicate the blitzkrieg-like conquest of Canaan under Joshua never occurred.  There are several theories concerning the origin of the Hebrew, but it is likely that the Hebrew were a Canaanite tribe or clan that was distinguished from other Canaanits by a religion which focused on YHWH rather than other Canaanite gods such as Baal. 

But we don't get real history in the Bible - we get a fiction created by YHWHist priests to serve thieir interests.



#17
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Imagine the silliness of this idea.

Supposed Americans historians wanted to supplant myths and legends for American history? What will they do with all the people who remember actual history? Does anyone believe that the history of an entire nation can be replaced with myths and legends by Priests?

This is a ludicrous attempt to blame and tarnish theists. It's typical anti- theist silliness, making claims that prove to be absolute nonsense upon examination.

Later archeological studies have verified that the bible has real history. There are many historical things, people, and places we know of today only because of the bible's record.

Keith thinks these things not for any logical reason, but because that is his bias. It is totally illogical. All his subsequent arguments, based on his first biased assumption, are illogical.
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@EtrnlVw
why would it matter about any religious group?
If you can find that out you will get a prize. I don't think even Deb knows. Its one of the great mysteries. What is it about religious groups that so consumes this dweeb?

I think it boils down to mental issues. Look at his posts. It's obvious that Deb thinks on a different plane. I don't think we will ever know.
#19
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@keithprosser
I didn't say 'history' - I said 'myths and legends'.   However the writers intended it to be taken as actual history.

You said   " their version of history" . here is your full quote on the matter post 1 above

Clearly, that did not happen.   I suggest the exiled YHWHist priests and scribes began writing the legends, myths and customs of the Jews (and the predecessors the Hebrews) in order to define, maintain and teach their version of history.

Just like other nations have done over the millenia. Like I have said , it amazes me the man hours that you must have spent piling over volumes of ancient history to come to the conjective conclusion that you reached on why the gospel writers wrote down these "bible stories "


For example, archaeology and anthropology indicate the blitzkrieg-like conquest of Canaan under Joshua never occurred.
And what are your sources for that statement ?

But we don't get real history in the Bible - we get a fiction created by YHWHist priests to serve thieir interests.
I agree. But you haven't begun to explain in any depth why these bible scribes wrote them in the first place, apart from stating the obvious.

What is the "real history" of the bible and what it contains within.seeing you don't believe any of it at all. And then and your sources?
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#20
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@ethang5
Supposed Americans historians wanted to supplant myths and legends for American history? What will they do with all the people who remember actual history? Does anyone believe that the history of an entire nation can be replaced with myths and legends by Priests?
There was no one alive in the 6th century BCE to 'remember' events of thousands of years earlier.   Nor were there written records of those times.  it would be very easy for the priests to get their version of 'history' accepted, especially as any doubters could be construed as unpatriotic and blasphemous.

Later archeological studies have verified that the bible has real history. There are many historical things, people, and places we know of today only because of the bible's record.
Or not.  To quote wikpedia

"Excavations at Tell es-Sultan, the biblical Jericho, have failed to produce data to substantiate the biblical story,[2] and scholars are virtually unanimous that the Book of Joshua holds little historical value.[3]"

It is because the 'historical' books have 'little historical value' we have to look for other reasons for writing of the pentaeuch,  that is other than recording historical events.   I view it as morale-boosting propaganda for the exiled Jews, telling them of a (fictional) glorious past and promising them a glorious future - if they stay faithful to their culture in general and their god in particular.   
 



#21
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Does anyone believethat the history of an entire nation can be replaced with myths and legends byPriests?
No I don’t.  But it appears only Prosser is suggesting that.I believe the Old Testament is an incomplete history. There are for instancetwo giant leaps of around 400 missing years that cannot be accounted for justby reading the Bible.
 
Later archeologicalstudies have verified that the bible has real history. 
 
I agree, they have.The Flood, The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The destruction of Babylon. But the question the prossers of the world would ask was can these archeologicalstudies be trusted. Not because it was a genuine statement or through any sort of reasoning, no , the prossers of the world would ask this simply to be contrary.  
Keith thinks thesethings not for any logical reason, but because that is his bias.
 
You make a validpoint. But prosser cannot realy argue one way or the other about the bible now can he? He doesn't believe a single word of it, He can't really offer a honest opinion of what the bible is about, what it means or why it was written  unless, as he says  " we have a time machine". 



 

#22
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@keithprosser
There was no one alive in the 6th century BCE to 'remember' events of thousands of years earlier.
 
Which is why things were written down to pass down through the generations, whether they are truths, half truth or simply blatant lies.
And the Mesopotamians were around hundreds of thousands of years ago depending on who and what historians –archaeological or anthropological - you wish to believe.
 
Nor were there written records of those times.
 I wouldn’t be too sure about that considering it was you who brought archaeology into the thread.
 
The span of recorded history is roughly 5,000 + years, beginning with Sumerian Cuneiform script, some believe much older.  One then has to consider how old the stories themselves are that they are conveying before they were committed to writing?  


"megaliths predate Stonehenge by some 6,000 years. The place is called Gobekli Tepe, and Klaus Schmidt, a German archaeologist who has been working here more than a decade, is convinced it's the site of the world's oldest temple.one of the most startling archaeological discoveries of our time: massive carved stones about 11,000 years old, crafted and arranged by prehistoric people who had not yet developed metal tools or even pottery." 

 One could conclude that if the are designing and building and carving massive stones about 11,000 years old, they must have had some kind of writing.


You mentioned what  "archaeology and anthropology indicate", So,  do you trust and or believe  this German  Archaeologist Klaus Schmidt's findings or not? 


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@keithprosser
There was no one alive in the 6th century BCE to 'remember' events of thousands of years earlier.
Yet people today can "remember" events thousands of years ago. History is continuous slick. If you asked a person in the 6th century BCE about his great grand father, he would not have given you a blank look. The same history weaves through all of time.

...and scholars are virtually unanimous that the Book of Joshua holds little historical value.
The book of Joshua is only 1/66th of the bible. Please don't lapse into your dishonest ways. And your claim of "virtually unanimous" is quite untrue. While many historians may not be Christian, they acknowledge that the customs and places listed in Joshua are accurately historical.

It is no sin to hold the views you have about the bible, but trying to  bend reality to fit your narrative is dishonest.
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#24
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@Stephen
Whenever writing was invented, I doubt if Adam, Abraham or Noah kept a diary.



#25
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@keithprosser
By Avoiding the questions you do yourself a disservice. But I don't suppose that would concern you. 
 
 
Whenever writing was invented, I Doubt if Adam, Abraham or Noah kept a diary.
 
 
 
They were certainly keeping some kinds of records as Flavius Josephus explained that both Adam  and one of his sons were masters " of the strange science of the studying of the heavenly bodies ".  So I am going to assume this meant Astronomy. The ancients were obsessed with it. And with good reason. It was their celestial calendar. 
 
 But You cannot accept this as you "weren't there" and we  don't"have a time machine" and neither did Josephus. So with that in mind,  anything you have to say on these ancient subjects doesn't count for anything. In fact your speculations  are worthless .
 
 

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@ethang5
Those are wikipedias words, not mine.  If you follow the [3] link you will end up here:

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@Stephen
I find in josphus:

They also were the inventors of thatpeculiar sort of wisdom which is concerned with the heavenly bodies'
'They' being the descendants of Seth, not Adam and son.

But it is obvious that Josephus is retelling the familiar bible story.

I would have been surprised if you or Ethang were fans of my post!  What I hope is that some of my fellow atheists will see the OT/Bible is not the ramblings of ignorant goatherders fit only for toilet paper!   It is - IMO - the product of skilled propagandists and story tellers.   There is barely an single unembellished fact in it, but if you also read around the subject it revaeals a lot about the ancient world and how religions work.

     


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I would have been surprised if you orEthang were fans of my post! 
 
You’re  being silly, This is not about “victimhood”. I find some of your post interesting . But they are wasted simple because  you don't believe them yourself. You admit to having fun speculating about ancient texts so you cannot be taken seriously in my opinion and your opinion doesn't count. I couldn't hold a conversation with you about something you have speculated because it would be a total waste of my breath when one takes into consideration, you don't believe what you say yourself. You have created a dilemma for yourself. stop playing victim.
 
 What I hope is that some of my fellow atheists will see the OT/Bible is not the ramblings of ignorant goat herders fit only for toilet paper!
 

 I have never suggested it is. Indeed, it is I who actually believe these stories and the characters therein as historical. I just don’t believe the bible ever tells us the whole story. Josephus fills in many of the gaps IMO.
 
 I believe some of the stories/events are purposeful re-enactments of true events, staged and performed to the letter every 2,160 years approx. TO THIS DAY.
 
   It is - IMO - the product of skilled propagandists and story tellers.
 
It could well be. But we will never know will we, “ we don’t have a time machine”.  But where as you have made clear you do not believe a single word of the scriptures, I do,
 
 
   There is barely an single unembellished fact in it,
 
I agree, but we will never know will we. The ancients could have just sat down and wrote the whole lot out of pure boredom or simply for the hell of it. Imagine. Coming up with the idea of the con, this swindle to deceive peoples of the future? So they could lead us all a merry dance 6,000years in the distant future.
 
but if you also read around the subject it reveals a lot about the ancient world and how religions work.
 
 I know. But again, what could it possible teach YOU about the ancient world?  You Say “read around the subject”  as if other ancient text would be telling us the truth. You seem to be saying the bible text is nonsensical fairy tales on one hand but any other ancient text is believable.This is what I mean when I say you sit on the fence simply to be contrary, and for no other reason.
 You don’t even realise what you did to yourself or what position you put yourself in when you dismissed these ancient text out of hand as fairy tale?   
   
'They' being the descendants of Seth, not Adam and son.
(ch9, para3).
 
I brought it up from memory prosser, I didn’t have to go scrabbling around the internet. But I have since  got out my copy of Whiston's Josephus .Page 27  to read further from the quote:
 
Chapter 2: V 3: 9-10
"They Also were the inventors of that peculiar sort of wisdom which is concerned with the heavenly bodies, and their order. <<<<< You left that out.
So we can safely call this " peculiar sort of wisdom" Astronomy/ Astrology

and to continue
 
"And that their inventions might not be lost before they were sufficiently known, upon Adam's prediction that the world was to be destroyed at one time by the force of fire, and at another time by the violence and quantity of water, they made two pillars, the oneof brick, the other of stone: they inscribed their discoveries on them both,that in case the pillar of brick should be destroyed by the flood, the pillar of stone might remain, and exhibit those discoveries to mankind; and also inform them that there was another pillar of brick erected by them. Now this remains in the land of Siriad to this day".

 So, Seth was the third son of  Adam which makes him a descendent of Adam. Adam had had passed on something as he was able to tell what the skies - “heavens”had predicted and had erected brick/stone pillars to " exhibit those discoveries to mankind". 
I suppose they did this for the sheer hell of it too, eh prosser?
 
 
But it is obvious that Josephus is retelling the familiar bible story.
 
Why is it “obvious” ? Why isn’t it a “familiar Mesopotamian story” that he is retelling?
Adam was from Mesopotamia. And there are 14 generations from Adam to  Abraham whom was also from Mesopotamia and then ordered to leave.