Delusion In Most Atheists?

Author: BrutalTruth

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@keithprosser
Formal debating is a sport - it is about finding out who is the best advocate, not what is true.   It is where would-be lawyers and aspiring policians prictice being persuasive - a champion debater should have no problem arguing and winning either side of a debate.

The best way to get to the truth is by co-operative brain-storming in the forums not adversorial debate.  Its just pity it never works out!
I think even the forums are about who is the best advocate. We rarely find out "what is true" here.

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@Castin
The best way to get to the truth is by co-operative brain-storming in the forums not adversorial debate.  Its just pity it never works out!
Probably never works out because many people don't want the truth. They lie and obfuscate, substituting their agenda for truth. No amount of co-operative brain-storming will overcome a dishonest "searcher".

But you probably know this already don't you?
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Atheist are bigots hence why most of those banned from here are atheists.  
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@ethang5
But you probably know this already don't you?
Sadly.
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@Castin
I think the forums are for finding out who has the most 'staying-power'!   The tactics are simple - stick to your guns at all costs until the other guy quits.  

Unless everyone on DA is a world-class expert on everything from middle-eastern ancient history to relativistic qunatum physics we must get some things wrong...but no-one ever admits being wrong.  Not many threads contain 'Good point, I hadn't thought of things that way.Now I see my mistake'.  
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@keithprosser
"Who has the most stamina" could be another way of saying "who is the best advocate" imo. But I don't think either formal debates or the forum really reach definitive conclusions about reality or who is really right. Debates decide nothing except what a few passing humans voted on, and in the forums there is no vote at all. Your success counts by reputation only, not by score.

Debates are entertaining because they're formal and the forum is entertaining because it's informal. I enjoy both for different reasons and I think it's silly to attempt to delegitimize one or the other. They're both popular and they both draw people to the site.
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@Castin

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@keithprosser
I don't get it.
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@Castin
possibly the forum debates more closely resemble this:


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@ethang5


Who did I call stupid?

See? This is where reading comprehension comes in. I did not call anyone stupid.

You did call disgusted "stupid" I think it is you who has trouble deciphering you own insulting crap.
Here is the whole quote. 103 above. It it was YOU calling  disgusted   "stupid" you also called him a "stalker".

Guys, I found the troll!
Lol. We've known about him for ages. He's sort of like a pet. But feed him at your own risk, he's as stupid as they come, and has been that way for years. He's sort of a stalker too so don't let him smell you.



call people clowns,

You are a clown and calling someone a clown doesn't seem to warrant a warning as does someone calling someone else   here "stupid". I have had warnings over calling people "stupid" but not for  calling  YOU a clown, as you so clearly are. You don't even understand your own post.


type in all caps,

I DO, FOR EMPHASIS,  especially if I am repeating my self for the billionth time.

and needlessly repeat posts.

I repeat posts that need to be repeated. need is not " needlessly"  that is you reading skill gone to crap again.

It undercuts your argument.
Opinion

You look like a mentally unstable person.
 I am not.  But  let's be clear here, are you calling me me "mentally unstable" ?  I wonder if that is an offence. I suppose I shall have to ask a mod to make that point clear.


All we have to do is make you angry and you go ahead and kill your own argument for us. 

You haven't made me angry you clown. don't flatter yourself. I don't particularly care what "US" thinks.


If you trust your arguments are right, then there is no need for insults or all bold/caps shouting. Calm down.

All explained above......    ok clown
Stephen
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@ethang5
They lie and obfuscate, substituting their agenda for truth.
Yes you do. You actually deny what is actually written in the scriptures and attempt to rewrite them, that is intention to be deceitful. Your not ven good at it.

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@Polytheist-Witch
And my other mummy said that, when she wasn't really my mummy but she was my mummy's cat. I think.
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@ethang5
Probably never works out because many people don't want the truth
You are so right, many godists believe the tripe written by the IPSS and you simply can't have both. Truth and the IPSS are mutually exclusive.

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@Stephen
Lol. OK.
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@disgusted
It doesn't matter who defines a term. What matters is whether the actual definition matches what the person in question has defined it as.
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@keithprosser

My mistake - the leader board shows you with 0 debates; I guess it doesn't include ongoing debates.

So I expect you will go from 0:500 to 1:500 when you lose!
Wow! Thanks for the confidence.

Expect? It either is or it isn't.

Where did you get the 500 debates from?

I could understand your quip more if you said you were unaware, then the comparison would be valid (Something to the effect of, "I thought you were 0:500 but in fact, you were 1:500."). Either way, you have me winning one debate in 500. Thanks!

PS. Your math is faulty. If I'm @ 0 in 500 and go to 1, then I'm 1 in 501. If I am at 0 and I go to 1, how do I lose this one?
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@PGA2.0
For a Christian, you seem like a rather intellectually honest individual. You may ask me whatever questions you like about what I believe and why. I may even agree to debate you on these forums, if you promise to admit defeat if you are defeated.
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@keithprosser

I believe certainty is impossible 
(other than in trivial cases such as tautologes and definitions),but I don't "bounce around on any wind of doctrine"!
Are you certain of that belief? What you did was create a self-refuting or self-contradictory statement. 

Are the only options faux-certainty or 'bouncing around'? is it as black and white as that? 
Something either is or it is not. Truth is certain. If you have no absolute reference point for truth then how do you know you have arrived at it? Some other factor could arise that changes the paradigm of what was thought of as true. 

Romans 3:3-4 (NASB)
What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
That You may be justified in Your words,
And prevail when You are judged.”

For something to be true, it must be true and can be nothing else but true. If you are a skeptic you can't say. You don't have what it takes to say. Thus, your position is self-refuting in regards to the truth of an issue. If you are 99.99% to that point of certainty there is still a small possibility you are wrong.

With what percent of certainty do you believe the Christian God is not God, roughly speaking? Can you be wrong on the Bible and God therein?


  
As a card carrying sceptic I do not claim certain knowlegde of any fact, but there is a spectrum of shades of certainty and uncertainty.   

You are not a skeptic in all things. I don't see how you could survive if you were. Some things you do see as 100% true. But in matters of origins, God, existence, morals, you just don't know, do you? 

When you say, "I do not claim certain knowledge of ANY fact," do you claim certainty in the knowledge of this fact just stated? Do you see how skepticism undermines itself? What is a fact? Is a fact not something that has been proved to be true? You can't prove anything according to your statement so whenever you make such statements you undermine even them. They are what are called self-refuting statements.


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@BrutalTruth
 
For a Christian, you seem like a rather intellectually honest individual. You may ask me whatever questions you like about what I believe and why. I may even agree to debate you on these forums, if you promise to admit defeat if you are defeated.
I appreciate that. I try to be as honest as I possibly can (and sometimes too direct in my thoughts). 

If we can find a subject we both agree on I would be happy to. You said you know a lot about the Bible, that you have read it many times. That interests me. I am a Preterist. Do you understand what kind of stand I take on eschatology and do you agree that it is the biblical stance (that it rings true to what is stated in the Bible)?

I also don't see how a person arrives at morality from relativism. If there is no absolute, unchanging, objective, universal basis for good (best - and you see where I am going with this line of thought) how can 'good' be anything but preferences, and what makes a personal preference good? It just makes 'good' what they like, and if they have the power to do so, then what you must live by. The problem is that it is not a logical system of thought since the Laws of Logic, the Law of Identity (A = A; a dog is a dog; good is good), is lost. 'A' can mean whatever you want to make it mean, thus it becomes meaningless. 'A' loses its identity with relativism.

keithprosser
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Something either is or it is not. Truth is certain. If you have no absolute reference point for truth then how do you know you have arrived at it? Some other factor could arise that changes the paradigm of what was thought of as true. 
Well yes - that is the point.   i have a firm opinion on many things based on the information received so far  - but I have no idea what I will find out tomorrow.   Hypothetically something could come to my attention tomorrow that convinces me that god exists.   But I choose to live my life assuming thatwon't happen because I estimate the probability of such a revelation to be negligible.   It is more probable will be struck by a meterorite than by a deivine revelation and i make no privision for the former, so I certainly don't plan for the latter!

Could you be wrong?   Do you ever consider the possibilty you could be wrong?  Do you have a plan B?  Are we different or merely on opposite sides?
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@PGA2.0
I am a Preterist. Do you understand what kind of stand I take on eschatology and do you agree that it is the biblical stance (that it rings true to what is stated in the Bible)?

Not yet. You haven't revealed what type of Preterist you are. Partial, or full? They are two very different doctrines.

I also don't see how a person arrives at morality from relativism. If there is no absolute, unchanging, objective, universal basis for good (best - and you see where I am going with this line of thought) how can 'good' be anything but preferences, and what makes a personal preference good? It just makes 'good' what they like, and if they have the power to do so, then what you must live by. The problem is that it is not a logical system of thought since the Laws of Logic, the Law of Identity (A = A; a dog is a dog; good is good), is lost. 'A' can mean whatever you want to make it mean, thus it becomes meaningless. 'A' loses its identity with relativism.
Relative morality only exists in those who base their morality on psychologically conditioned emotions, thus relativism in morality is false. All humans are born with the same primal instincts; Instincts like survival. Most notions of morality are formed by these basic instincts for survival. It is the reason why murder is seen as wrong, and etc. I won't go into detail on that right now, as it's not needed to answer your question. The answer is: True morality is absolutely universal. It just doesn't need an eternal god to be so.
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@PGA2.0
The 500 is the number of forum posts; its 1 formal debate to 500 forum posts.

Oh - best of luck in the debate, but I'm rootin' for skeps.


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@BrutalTruth
The answer is: True morality is absolutely universal. It just doesn't need an eternal god to be so.
Does 'true morality' (as, one supposes, opposed to 'false morality'!)need conscious entities to be so?

The universe knows nothing of morality.   Imagine a rock falling from a cliff onto the sandy beach below.   It accelerates  at 32ft/s/s/.   If there happens to be baby in a pram at the point of impact it falls at..... 32ft/s/s.

If there is a universal morality the universe doesn't seem to bother much with it.



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@keithprosser
You apparently don't know what "universal" means in the context which it was used.

u·ni·ver·sal
/ˌyo͞onəˈvərsəl/
adjective

  1. 1.
    of, affecting, or done by all people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to all cases.
In other words, "across the board," "done by all things," or "affecting all things." True human morality is the same for every human in existence.
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@BrutalTruth
Universal:  "Affecting all things".... except falling rocks!



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@keithprosser
Ah, I see. So you are arguing that rocks are humans, even though I specifically said "human morality." I see you're another one of those useless people who rely on semantics to make a point. It's universal among humans dude. Human morality in no way has anything to do with rocks. Stop being ridiculous.
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@BrutalTruth
I am a Preterist. Do you understand what kind of stand I take on eschatology and do you agree that it is the biblical stance (that it rings true to what is stated in the Bible)?

Not yet. You haven't revealed what type of Preterist you are. Partial, or full? They are two very different doctrines.
They have a lot of similarities but some glaring differences too. I side toward full Preterism. I don't see how you can make sense of Scripture with partial Preterism, or with futurism in any form. 

I also don't see how a person arrives at morality from relativism. If there is no absolute, unchanging, objective, universal basis for good (best - and you see where I am going with this line of thought) how can 'good' be anything but preferences, and what makes a personal preference good? It just makes 'good' what they like, and if they have the power to do so, then what you must live by. The problem is that it is not a logical system of thought since the Laws of Logic, the Law of Identity (A = A; a dog is a dog; good is good), is lost. 'A' can mean whatever you want to make it mean, thus it becomes meaningless. 'A' loses its identity with relativism.
Relative morality only exists in those who base their morality on psychologically conditioned emotions, thus relativism in morality is false. All humans are born with the same primal instincts; Instincts like survival.
Okay, then the question is why should my instincts operation in the same way yours do? Evolution has no purpose in mind since it is not a personal process. Evolution does not decree I survive. It has no logic or moral likes of dislikes. It just is. The strong adaptable, survive - period. And why should we survive? There is no reason for/from an evolutionary process, just what is.

If it is to my benefit to kill others so I will survive what of it? If Hitler had gained world domination and has survived, then whoever he deemed unfit would be eliminated and there would be nothing wrong with it. This begs the question of how you get from what is (descriptive) to an ought (what should be).  From what I witness those in power make the rules. If you live in North Korea you live by a different set of rules from those in the USA. Why is your moral instinct any "better" than that of Kim Jong-un? Because you like it? Well, too bad, he likes the opposite and for you to survive in his country you have to abide by what he decrees. The problem is that you have two different set of rules regarding the same thing (let's say abortion or capital punishment). Who in effect is 'right?' They both can't logically be for they state opposites. It goes against the Law of Identity, the Law of Non-contradiction, and the Laws of Excluded Middles. In effect, it turns logic on its head.




Most notions of morality are formed by these basic instincts for survival. It is the reason why murder is seen as wrong, and etc. I won't go into detail on that right now, as it's not needed to answer your question. The answer is: True morality is absolutely universal. It just doesn't need an eternal god to be so.


I agree true morality is absolute, objective, universal and unchanging. Where do you see this in the world? Whose view is the correct view? Why would your subjective, relative, limited mind be necessary for determining what is true, and what is true in terms of a moral issue like abortion? I get specific because we need to look at an issue that is a very controversial and divided issue.  

Are you saying that functionality (what is/descriptive) determines morality (what should be)? 

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@keithprosser
The 500 is the number of forum posts; its 1 formal debate to 500 forum posts.

Oh - best of luck in the debate, but I'm rootin' for skeps.
Ah! I thought it was just debates, not posts. So the 500 to one ratio has to do with debates in relation to posts then? Got it!

Thanks for the well-wishing, I think? I'm glad I did not pick you as a judge then. You have not read the debate but you are already rooting for SkepticalOne.  

BrutalTruth
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@PGA2.0
Okay, then the question is why should my instincts operation in the same way yours do?

Because we're both human.

If it is to my benefit to kill others so I will survive what of it? If Hitler had gained world domination and has survived, then whoever he deemed unfit would be eliminated and there would be nothing wrong with it. This begs the question of how you get from what is (descriptive) to an ought (what should be).  From what I witness those in power make the rules. If you live in North Korea you live by a different set of rules from those in the USA. Why is your moral instinct any "better" than that of Kim Jong-un? Because you like it? Well, too bad, he likes the opposite and for you to survive in his country you have to abide by what he decrees. The problem is that you have two different set of rules regarding the same thing (let's say abortion or capital punishment). Who in effect is 'right?' They both can't logically be for they state opposites. It goes against the Law of Identity, the Law of Non-contradiction, and the Laws of Excluded Middles. In effect, it turns logic on its head.
Actions beget actions. That is factual reality. That's why killing for reasons other than an eminent threat is not morally just. If your life is immediately threatened, and killing is the only way to stop that threat from meeting reality, then killing is morally justified. If you kill indiscriminately, you invite others to do the same to you. Good begets good, evil begets evil, actions beget actions. These are basic logical principals, and basic human instincts for survival.

My moral instinct is no different from Kim Jong-un's. Kim is an evil prick who was raised in a morally skewed environment. His emotions were psychologically conditioned. His morality comes from these emotions, instead of reality. As I said previously, those who base their morality on conditioned emotions rather than reality are morally wrong. Kim has exactly the same instincts as I do. He simply ignores them when it comes to morality.
BrutalTruth
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@PGA2.0
They have a lot of similarities but some glaring differences too. I side toward full Preterism. I don't see how you can make sense of Scripture with partial Preterism, or with futurism in any form. 
Then yes, I do understand where you stand, and no I do not agree that it is the biblical stance, nor do I specifically disagree.