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Author: Theweakeredge

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#1
Theweakeredge
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Fascinating, utterly brain-denying, the positive effect on my mental health leaving the sight has given me. This isn't to say that the people here are intrinsically bad, or even that the art of constant debate and being intellectually challenged is unhealthy - no in fact I participate in forums where even more of my fundamental beliefs are challenged, fun. I think the reason why it can get a bit "eh" here is because it's quite toxic. But enough about that rant that was meant as a clever hook that turned into an actual tangent.

Hello there, again, I don't even know if anybody will read this or care to read this - frankly I doubt people will - but if you do care, yes I am alive. This year I'm taking four college classes, so essentially, I'm doin the college thing but around people who don't care - so, ya know, more fun. Needless to say, it takes more time, and my free time isn't something I want to give... to here. Maybe in the future I'll return more permanently for arguments and stuff I dunno. I suppose I should go into how I've changed over the months since I've gone away.

I've turned my back on all the leftist, marxist, atheistic propaganda I used to spew!

Lmao, no, I've turned more in.

I'm actually pretty close to communist now, and even closer to anarchy - one might say - anarcho-communism. But regardless, I think that marxist have a pretty good point that hiring someone to do labor for you, then taking the profit for that labor and giving them a fraction of that while the profit increases, kinda sucks. Not to go on another rant. Another thing, I've kinda been swayed on - guys - governments are bad. Oh my god, so original, right? Right. So, beyond this barely-coherent tangent of things that make people enraged and annoy others, I'm back kinda-not really. 
#2
RationalMadman
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Regarding the an-com thing, ask yourself how your system will work. For a second do not attack the things you see as corrupt or evil, ask yourself what your own system is and how it avoids being corrupt and evil... You will then see it's impossible to totally eliminate, one can only mitigate and if you realise that not just economically but socially too, you'll then realise we do need government.

I want you to for a second imagine what life would be like if nobody was there to protect you when someone smashes down your door, robs your home and abuses their strength, not money. Then, the community that is ancom rather than other variant of anarchic, forgive and forget this sin, love the sinner and share with you whatever they can to help you rebuild you home.

So, the robber laughs, does it again.

This time they are less forgiving, they kill him because prison doesn't exist and he refuses to be exiled.

Eventually, they do the same thing later on but it turns out the guy was misunderstood and was himself desperate because in fact all this sharing has made the entire nation poor rather than equally prosperous you are all equally suffering.

So... What happens?

It never happened in this order of events on record because approaches like this, in this order of evolving into and out of ancom happened in very ancient tribes that tried it out and didn't amount to much.

The problem starts to snowball, people being lynching anyone they see fit to call a problem to the society and unfair gainer. They see Lil Pump getting people to give him resources for his music and seethe with rage, even without money artists can exist who try less and get lucky... They are angry, they want more conscious rap and stuff that actually takes effort to make... They throw Lil Pump off a cliff and his body becomes the straw that broke the camel's back.

Suddenly a group of libertarians who are starting to loathe this mob mentality of pure unadultered democracy where if you dare challenge the masses or live life in a way they don't approve of as deserving to prosper in their communist system of governmentless chaos, they'll 'eliminate' you. These group secretly plot, start turning factions against each other and rise to the top. 

Whether they win or lose, you start to see how and why there ended up being a government everywhere that a sophisticated society evolved.
#3
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@Theweakeredge
"But regardless, I think that marxist have a pretty good point that hiring someone to do labor for you, then taking the profit for that labor and giving them a fraction of that while the profit increases, kinda sucks"

But like what if the person hired gives their complete and unequivocal content to work for a fraction of the money? No one is forcing the worker, after all. 

"kinda back not really"

You kinda getting back into doing debates?
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#4
Theweakeredge
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@RationalMadman
You've made a tad bit of a fallacy there - I'm not an anarcho-communist right now, just sympathetic to their cause, and currently doin' research deeper into it. At this point I've heard your objection a million times, I'll address it purely out of annoyance of its repeated measure. First of all, nobody is there to protect me when someone smashes down my door - in fact - nobodies there whenever they do it again. They get there after the fact most times. Second of all, most causes of crime are poverty, lack of education, etc etc - which would all be addressed under this sort of system. Finally - I don't think you get what "exiled" means in the form that most anarcho-communists mean. Look that up, then I'll get back to you.
#5
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So, the robber laughs, does it again.

What do you think the motive for robbery is?

#6
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hello
#7
Ramshutu
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@Theweakeredge
I participate in forums where even more of my fundamental beliefs are challenged, fun. I think the reason why it can get a bit "eh" here is because it's quite toxic
I think the specific issue is that there are people who challenge your beliefs by offering a competing viewpoint, and offering a comprehensive thesis about why you’re wrong that requires you to question and/or re-validate your beliefs in the face of novel scrutiny.

Then there are people who challenge your beliefs by shouting “LiBtArDs Go BrRrR”, or some equivalent intellectually bankrupt approach. 

I recall talking with Creationists way back in the 2000s - they were really wrong, had bad facts, worse logic; but engaged in debate. While many were intellectually dishonest - they went all in with it, and defended that dishonesty.

Then you had the real crazy flat earthers; they worked by bamboozling people into thinking they’re being rational; but really have been trained in the art of one liners. Saying that, they too mostly defended their dishonesty: right up until the point you catch them in a demonstrable falsehood. 

I’ve found these forums are full of people who won’t defend their dishonesty. There are multiple individuals who will simply ignore everything you say; won’t engage in any meaningful discussion; and will simply pretend that reality is a whatever is convenient; they will simply say you are being a hypocrite right after supporting something they recently admonished; they will call you liar, right after calling the pope Muslim; they will call you dishonest, after misrepresenting everything you’ve said for the last seven pages - and they will proclaim you are unable to answer a point if you ask them to answer a specific issue after having ignoring every last thing you said for the last 10 pages.

I don’t understand the mental draw of this sort of Happy Placing; but yet, they’re here, in force, ready to shout you down on everything. Ready to throw one liners. To troll, to misrepresent. Ready to ignore everything. Because facts don't matter; reality doesn’t matter; all that matters is being able to hear the shrieks of the bystanders when they sh*t themselves in the pool.
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#8
Theweakeredge
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@BigPimpDaddy
It depends, I think this excerpt explains the nuance quite well:
"A small group of entrenched armed robbery offenders, the motivation to commit armed robbery appears to be more about earning a regular (illicit) income; a means to pay bills and support a family (that is, more like a regular job). Table 1 summarises a selection of published data on this issue. In particular, it shows that between about one-fifth and one-third of offenders in the selected studies cite 'money for drugs' as a prime motivating factor for committing armed robbery."

And hello.
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#9
Theweakeredge
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@Ramshutu
mm yeah that's probably it-  here - you can find all of those sorts of people, on most of my other forums, they are pretty rare- the ones who scream libtard and all that - most of them are the ones who actually have valid argumentation and all that. 
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#10
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@Bones
Right, because we choose to pay rent and bills? 
#11
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@Theweakeredge
Right, because we choose to pay rent and bills? 
You don't have to pay rent if you don't live in a house. You don't have to pay for bills if don't want water and electricity. 
#12
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@Bones
Shit.

But you have to pay for pizza and smart devices.

We're all hooked into the system.

You, me and the Taliban.
#13
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@Bones
You don't have to pay rent if you don't live in a house. You don't have to pay for bills if don't want water and electricity. 
your point?
#14
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@Theweakeredge
Welcome back. 

I used to also be an anarchist, but now I think governments are necessary to protect people from foreign armies. 
#15
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I used to also be an anarchist, but now I think governments are necessary to protect people from foreign armies. 
same.
Thats one of the core problems with anarchy.

#16
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Right, because we choose to pay rent and bills? 
You don't have to pay rent if you don't live in a house. You don't have to pay for bills if don't want water and electricity. 
Your still being coerced into paying for all the above.

If you don't give me your money you don't get a house!

No money? then no more water.

the idea that that is voluntary is insane to me.


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#17
Theweakeredge
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@Bones
You've utterly missed the point - saying "you don't have to live in a house" ignores the fact that you will die eventually if you continually sleep outside with no access to shelter - much quicker without water - you are politically forced to pay rent and water bills - because without it you would - reasonably speaking - fucking die. Don't be semantic about this- it encompasses more than your belief structure, it has to do with actual human lives. 
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#18
Theweakeredge
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@Sum1hugme
I would actually agree that that is one of the weaker parts of anarchism - this is why most anarchists acknowledge that its a future utopia, like communism was written as by Marx. At least the ones I've talked to.
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#19
Theweakeredge
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@BigPimpDaddy
Precisely
#20
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@Theweakeredge
Anarchy is no future utopia. Anarchy happened already, it was full of barbaric acts of varying degrees of brutality.

Deep down we're all partly anarchic monsters some passive some active, what tames us is belief in a better world for the current and future generation vs what was there before. 
#21
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@Theweakeredge
I spent several years delving into pretty much every theory of anarchism, and none of them can account for the problem of foreign armies, or the need for a judicial system with any practical solutions. I would also say they can't account for a system of policing, but that's a slightly more tentative claim.
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#22
Theweakeredge
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@RationalMadman
Lord of Flies, blah blah blah, we are all monsters beneath the skin - undemonstratable - humans are typically empathetic as a part of biological evolution and as a social species in whole. While they do, at times, take advantage of others and ignore suffering for profit - most people get mad at that - because most humans, don't like that. 

And no - not quite - there has actually been quite a few anarchistic societies which didn't go like that, a lot of times they're overrun by other nations...at least, bigger one's are
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#23
Theweakeredge
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@Sum1hugme
I disagree fundamentally on two fronts: an army is very possible in an anarchist society - and the fact that they are overrun doesn't actually tell you that the philosophy itself is bad. Consider this: if the US had lost the American Revolution (which was definitely a possibility at a lot of points) would that mean that their proposed system of government was impossible? It's like saying Poland failed as a nation because Germany overturned it, fundamentally speaking, military failure does not at all equate to a problem with the philosophy. And the judicial system part, should there *be* a judicial system? That's a more fundamental claim, asssuming it is, why aren't local councils having a meeting to review evidence and all that satisifactory? 
#24
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@Theweakeredge
 we are all monsters beneath the skin - undemonstratable - humans are typically empathetic as a part of biological evolution and as a social species in whole. While they do, at times, take advantage of others and ignore suffering for profit - most people get mad at that - because most humans, don't like that. 
hence why anarchy is undesirable to most now. We evolved away from enjoying it because those that thrived in anarchy ended up outreproduced in the long run as either they died young with a thug/junkie lifestyle or they lived long enough but were pushed aside by society for their antisocial ways. 

Every single instance of anarchy ended up undesirable in the long run as people evolved past their bloodthirsty tribal era of human sociological evolution and then outcasted the most brutish anarchic types (via 'laws' after all). Similarly, in Africa and South America in particular, you will find that the tribes that lasted longest and weren't wiped out were the most open to negotiate and get along peacefully with those that showed up. The tribes that fought the hardest and operated without any respect for rules and peace ended up the most harshly targetted by the colonists.
#25
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@Theweakeredge
And no - not quite - there has actually been quite a few anarchistic societies which didn't go like that, a lot of times they're overrun by other nations...at least, bigger one's are
of course they are, anarchy is dysfunctional and incompetent at any kind of long term warfare with a non-anarchic faction.
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#26
Theweakeredge
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@RationalMadman
... you fundamentally don't understand anarchism, anarchism is an opposition to unjust hierarchies and illegimate goverence, with a focus on equality - you see this in it's abundant support of the ANTIFA protesters, Feminist protesting, etc, etc - most civil rights campaigns in the 19/20th century have either been led by anarchists, or supported by them... at least in the US. 
#27
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@Theweakeredge
There isn't a practical way to raise capital and solidarity for a organized army without a government. If you have an idea, I'm apt to hear it.

A judicial system is necessary to settle disputes between citizens.
#28
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@Theweakeredge
What college classes did you go for?
#29
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@Theweakeredge
 anarchism is an opposition to unjust hierarchies and illegimate goverence, with a focus on equality
It opposes legitimate governance because anything legitimate is legitimised by a legal system and in anarchy there is only morality, not law. Equality is impossible in anarchy, there's no government to enforce it.
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#30
Theweakeredge
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@Sum1hugme
Well first of all - a confederate democracy could accomplish that just like a more state-government, same for a judiciary system, I'm curious what you've studied because these are very common rebuttals to your point, I kinda' doubt you've looked into it all that deeply if you aren't aware of these very basic counters.