What is the best piece of evidence that the 2020 election was fraudulent? And how has that evidence been addressed?
Evidence the 2020 election was fraudulent?
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@Sum1hugme
Any illegal vote in 2020 counts as fraud and so that election made fraudulent to some degree. I doubt that any US National election has been carried out without any illegal votes.
In prior posts I have listed many many actions with fraudulent intent perpetrated by Republicans, Trumpists, and mostly by Trump himself designed to defraud the American electorate (mail slow downs, fake news, decreasing polling places, dropboxes, etc). Trump continues to defraud the electorate every time he falsely claims to have secretly won in spite of the lack of any evidence.
The real question is whether the vote count was flawed to a degree sufficient to create an inaccurate result. One year and hundreds of investigations late, the clear answer is that there is no possibility that the vote count was sufficiently flawed to change the result.
Republican attempts to defraud the electorate persist and have not been legislatively or legally addressed to any satisfactory degree. A number of Republican State legislatures have introduced laws designed to fuzzy up the question of whether voters or Republicans have the ultimate say about how electors are selected and ordered to vote in presidential elections.
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@Sum1hugme
There is no good evidence that the election was fraudulent. The reasons people believe that it was is:
1) People don't like admitting defeat. I don't really understand this because it's common for a politician to lose an election, and doesn't really mean much. Particularly in the case of Trump who did some serious self sabotage
2) The results DID look fraudulent at first. I no longer believe that there was significant amounts of voter fraud in 2020, but for the first two weeks or so after the election I did. Because frankly it simply did look fraudulent. A candidate is leading all night and into the morning, only for a last minute vote dump with Soviet-tier margins to overwhelm his lead at the last minute and by the exact amount necessary to give his opponent a narrow win. Seems really, really, REALLY suspicious. But then you do a little more research and find that those Soviet-tier margins actually make sense because the remaining ballots were at an intersection of several characteristics that make a voter highly likely to vote Democrat. They were mail-in ballots, the method Democrats prefer for whatever reason and concentrated in the urban cores of large cities, which also vote heavily Democratic. Then you start to look for other signs of voter fraud, such as abnormally high rates of turnout in certain areas not replicated throughout the state, etc and they just weren't there.
I do think that mail in voting is a disaster and that no excuse absentee voting should not be allowed. While it isn't technically fraudulent I think that stuff like ballot harvesting does undermine democracy but not nearly enough for me to say that the election was fraudulent. The way that the votes were counted, sometimes taking several days (or even weeks in extreme cases) was completely unacceptable and should not be allowed to happen again. I don't blame people for suspecting fraud when it appears that your opponents just keep finding ballots. In some places, this is simply par of the course and it has been swept under the rug for several cycles now. California JUST finished counting votes for it's recall election that was held on 9/14, over a month ago, and took months to declare several congressional races in 2016, 2018, and 2020. I forget the details but there was also a congressional race in New York (NY-22) that ultimately went Republican but the election administration was so incredibly poor that the true will of the voters will never be known. It took so long to be certified due to all the court cases that the district went without representation for several weeks into this session of congress. This kind of thing is not fair to the candidates or their voters. Serious reform IS needed.
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@thett3
They were mail-in ballots, the method Democrats prefer for whatever reason and concentrated in the urban cores of large cities, which also vote heavily Democratic.
Historically, Democrats haven't preferred mail-in ballots. The reason it was different this time around was because of the pandemic and Trump saying not to trust mail-in voting because their votes could be thrown out.
Back when it was more common among Republican voters, the NYT would run articles like: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/us/politics/as-more-vote-by-mail-faulty-ballots-could-impact-elections.html
"Error and Fraud at Issue as Absentee Voting Rises"
"Republicans are in fact more likely than Democrats to vote absentee. In the 2008 general election in Florida, 47 percent of absentee voters were Republicans and 36 percent were Democrats."
With gems like these:
Yet votes cast by mail are less likely to be counted, more likely to be compromised and more likely to be contested than those cast in a voting booth, statistics show. Election officials reject almost 2 percent of ballots cast by mail, double the rate for in-person voting.
Voting by mail is now common enough and problematic enough that election experts say there have been multiple elections in which no one can say with confidence which candidate was the deserved winner. The list includes the 2000 presidential election, in which problems with absentee ballots in Florida were a little-noticed footnote to other issues.
In the last presidential election, 35.5 million voters requested absentee ballots, but only 27.9 million absentee votes were counted, according to a study by Charles Stewart III, a political scientist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He calculated that 3.9 million ballots requested by voters never reached them; that another 2.9 million ballots received by voters did not make it back to election officials; and that election officials rejected 800,000 ballots. That suggests an overall failure rate of as much as 21 percent.
There is a bipartisan consensus that voting by mail, whatever its impact, is more easily abused than other forms. In a 2005 report signed by President Jimmy Carter and James A. Baker III, who served as secretary of state under the first President George Bush, the Commission on Federal Election Reform concluded, “Absentee ballots remain the largest source of potential voter fraud.”
“Absentee voting is to voting in person,” Judge Richard A. Posner of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit has written, “as a take-home exam is to a proctored one.”
Not to say the election was "stolen" (I think he turned his back on his base and appealed to groups that were never a part of his base) but to show the progression from "mail-in voting is the easiest form for committing fraud" to "most secure election in history" when we have record numbers of mail-in votes. Quite mind-boggling.
There's evidence of fraud but not enough to change the outcome of the election.
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@Greyparrot
True.
Because if A. can potentially deceive B.
Then obviously B. can potentially deceive. A.
An electoral system based upon honesty plus a bit of tit for tat fraud, is probably about as fair as it gets.
Of course, the absurdity of the whole electoral process is another issue.
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@zedvictor4
Voting has become as commonplace as replying to spam mail. No thought required.
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@thett3
The way that the votes were counted, sometimes taking several days (or even weeks in extreme cases) was completely unacceptable and should not be allowed to happen again. I don't blame people for suspecting fraud when it appears that your opponents just keep finding ballots.
Well first of all they weren’t finding ballots, they were counting them. But more importantly, the reason it all appeared to be such a big disaster was because republican legislatures in multiple battleground states passed laws not allowing a single mail in ballot to even be opened let alone counted until after Election Day. This was done on purpose specifically to feed into the narrative that mail in ballots were illegitimate because they knew they were going to shift heavily towards Biden.
In states where they do this every year like Florida, not only were there were no issues but we saw the exact opposite. Biden had the early lead because they counted their mail in ballots as they arrived, then Trump pulled ahead and we got our results that night. Oddly enough no one complained about voter fraud there.
Maybe I'm ignorant here but how exactly is it that this is able to happen?
I have never come across another developed nation that's a genuine democracy where a false vote (not even via the mail-in voting) is able to be forged on this scale unless the person literally handed the document/letter over to another to fill in for them. I think the US system itself is the issue personally, I never heard of this level of voter fraud unless we mean pseudodemocracies like Russia, China and Iran that probably literally rig their elections.
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@ILikePie5
What the Democrats did in 2020 was the equivalent of insider trading. They set up a ground game targeting mail in ballots way before the rules were changed and put in place. It's not fraudulent or illegal, it's just what you expect with blatant power grabs.
Now, let's go Brandon.
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@Greyparrot
Making it easy for people to vote is not a power grab, that’s what we call democracy. Never ceases to amaze me how people try to make that as if it were somehow nefarious.
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@RationalMadman
Maybe I'm ignorant here but how exactly is it that this is able to happen?
How what is able to happen?
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@Double_R
Making it easy for people to vote is not a power grab, that’s what we call democracy.
No but a sudden change in the rules is most certainly a power grab as well as undermining the expectations of a predictably fair election.
At least we know exactly who is to blame for the current mess....the 38 percenters.
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@Greyparrot
U admit there wasn't enough fraud to change the results? Who r u and what have u done with greyparrot?
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@n8nrgmi
get on the yang gang. stop the fash
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@Greyparrot
No but a sudden change in the rules is most certainly a power grab as well as undermining the expectations of a predictably fair election.
No, it’s not. Context matters, and I’m not sure if you noticed but we kind of went through this thing we call a pandemic which tends to call for adjustments to the way we do things. Never ceases to amaze me how election deniers always leave that out.
We can all cut the BS now, the only reason republicans take issue with any of these changes is because Biden won. In places where they are and have always done the same things, like Florida for example, republicans have no issues with any of it. This is also why states are taking the remarkable step of not just auditing their own elections almost a year out, but auditing specifically the counties Biden won. The “real” concern here couldn’t be any more obvious.
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@Double_R
Ok, thanks for your 38 percenter insight.
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@Greyparrot
A sudden change of rules.
So much for a constitution then.
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@Greyparrot
Ok, thanks for your 38 percenter insight.
Why do you even bother?
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@Double_R
Because like Thett said, there's a very real possibility people are going to allow the policies that promote inflation due to ignorance and a misplaced trust in DC, and I like to know what I am going to be up against. It's helpful for preppers.
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@Greyparrot
If you want to know what you are “up against” its probably a good idea to start listening to what people are actually saying and stop attributing everything you disagree with to ignorance stemming from trust in DC, or something stupid like that.
The inflation we’ve experienced is primarily due to Covid related disruptions in the supply chains which has raised the cost of just about everything. Not because Biden got sworn in or whatever you are implying.
Queue your one line response, probably calling me a 38 percenter or something just as useless.
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@Double_R
QE has also contributed greatly to inflation. It's the number one source of money surplus right now driving the value of the dollar down. If it was just price increases due to supply ALONE, the dollar value wouldn't be affected at all. It's why inflation is far outpacing the wage gains, because the value of money is dropping faster than the value of labor and scarce commodities. Another driving factor for inflation is the lack of trust in the dollar leading investors (like me) to swap dollars for crypto in an attempt to destroy dollars faster than the fed can print them.
Queue your one line response, probably calling me a 38 percenter or something just as useless.
I just want to make it clear who I hold responsible. It isn't some storybook villain.
I didn’t say it was due to the supply chain alone, I said it was the primary reason.
QE massively jumped from March 2020 to May 2020 and has seen a steady increase ever since, so if that’s what you are blaming inflation on it would be Trump or I guess by your logic his supporters to hold responsible, not Biden.
And I can’t help not notice how self defeating your point is. You claim that another factor is lack of trust in the dollar by investors like yourself, and then tell us how your swapping your dollars for crypto. If that’s what’s driving down the dollar then you are literally attributing the problem to yourself, which makes it all the more absurd to blame Biden supporters for it.
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@Double_R
I said it was the primary reason.
Shortages of products don't devalue the dollar. Oversupply of printed money and lack of confidence does. Whoever told you that it does is feeding you a horseload of misinformation.
If that’s what’s driving down the dollar...
It literally doesn't In fact it does the opposite because it's a hedge against inflation.
If DC chose to stop printing money right now, crypto would seriously decline in value, or at least slow down in growth as the dollar regained relative value. But I have strong faith in DC's ability to fuck things up and I am prospering greatly because of it.
All you guys betting on DC to take care of you are like addicts walking into a Casino. You'll never win. Unless you know the dealer.
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@Greyparrot
Shortages of products don't devalue the dollar. Oversupply of printed money and lack of confidence does.
I’m just going to leave this here for you to ignore
Whoever told you that it does is feeding you a horseload of misinformation.
It’s everywhere bro. Try using Google once in a while.
All you guys betting on DC to take care of you are like addicts walking into a Casino. You'll never win. Unless you know the dealer.
This is such a stupid talking point, please remove this from your “arsenal”. All it does is show where your mind is when it comes to these topics and makes you look ignorant.
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@Double_R
Lol, you sent me to a propaganda opinion site to correct me on your lack of economic knowledge regarding dollar valuation?
You realize you can have product shortages and LOWER prices as well depending on how much the dollar is valued? (hint: try reading a history book)
Whatever, it's the 38 percenters like you that I rely on for my investments, and your stubbornness gives me comfort in my hedge investments against the policies you support..
Keep pulling that 1 arm bandit. I am sure it will pay off one day with the right narrative. The scribbled collective knowledge of the 38 percenters of Fed monetary policies and who is really in charge in DC could probably fit on the back of a cereal box.
Investors don't have the luxury of believing in fantasies, we accept the world as it is, and we profit off the people who do not.
I also don't know why you are bringing in Trump or Biden into discussions about the real power in DC (hint: it's nobody anyone elects)
When I say "Lets go Brandon," I truly expect things to continue as planned in DC, not because I think anything about a single person.
So Let's go Brandon!
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@Greyparrot
Lol, you sent me to a propaganda opinion site to correct me on your lack of economic knowledge regarding dollar valuation?
That’s why I’m telling you to learn how to use Google. I picked one out of the dozens of articles that popped up. I’ve never heard of that specific site, that’s actual why I picked it - because people like yourself tend to dismiss out of hand any information that comes from any source you have been trained to think of as fake news so I picked one I thought you might not recognize. Of course, you did and so instead of talking about the content you attack the source. Why am I not surprised?
You realize you can have product shortages and LOWER prices as well depending on how much the dollar is valued?
Of course, what does that have to do with 2022? When was the last time we had a supply chain disruption anywhere in the scale of what is happening now?
Whatever, it's the 38 percenters like you that I rely on for my investments, and your stubbornness gives me comfort in my hedge investments against the policies you support.
In case you already forgot, this conversation began because you tried to argue that the inflation we are seeing is a product of Biden’s policies. I’m pointing out why that is complete nonsense. Even if the supply chain argument is entirely wrong, that’s doesn’t change the point.
Your initial argument was QE, which exploded in March 2020 and has been rising slowly and steadily since. No change when Biden took office. Your second argument was confidence, then you went on to explain how investors like yourself are the ones putting your money elsewhere - the literal thing you say is causing the inflation. So both of your arguments fail.
Let me know when you have something productive to say other than “dUh your stupid and your stupidity is making me money”.
people like yourself...
You mean investors? As opposed to people who give out advice with zero skin in the game?
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way motivated to give out advice to anyone on how to invest. I am only making observations.
Observing the stubborn and persistent unwavering dogma of the 37 percenters is what secures my investments.
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@Double_R
In case you already forgot, this conversation began because you tried to argue that the inflation we are seeing is a product of Biden’s policies.
That's my bad. I didn't mean to lead you to believe Biden has authorship of anything. Especially when it comes to Fed policies.
If you have that belief already, then that's your fault.
As a 37 percenter, you wouldn't likely know the distinction.