When people want to take down confederate statues, it sounds a lot like this

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
TheUnderdog
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Genghis Khan was a terrible man.  He is a serial rapist and a war lord.  We need to take down every statue of him because he was a terrible person.  Khan academy should be renamed because Khan was evil.

Ancient Egyptian pyramids are human rights abuses.  They were built by slaves.  Egypt has them as a tourist attraction.  Egypt literally profits from slavery to this day.  Tear down the pyramids.

Muhammad was a war lord.  He raped many people.  He killed people for refusing to accept Islam.  He killed people for territory.  We need to ban anything that states Muhammad was a good person (including the Quran).  Take down every statue of this horrible man.

God is a horrible entity.  He genocided almost all of humanity in the great flood.  He said Isralis are God's chosen people.  God is a racist against gentiles. God told slaves to obey their masters instead of advocating for their freedom.  We need to ban christianity, judaism, and islam, because God is an evil entity.

Me: If none of these things are happening (I don't think they should), but if none of these things are happening, then why should we waste tax dollars on taking down confederate statues and prohibiting people from flying the confederate flag?  Freedom is a trade off.
#2
Polytheist-Witch
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How many Genghis Khan statues do we have in the US? Not sure we get to tell other countries what they can and can't do. Actually people are spending money on having religious statues removed from taxpayer property. If you want to build a Confederate statue or put the ten commandments in your front yard there's not much anybody could do to stop you. Again we're addressing statues in public areas or that are being kept up by tax money privacy is a completely different matter.
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secularmerlin
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@Polytheist-Witch
How many Genghis Khan statues do we have in the US? Not sure we get to tell other countries what they can and can't do. Actually people are spending money on having religious statues removed from taxpayer property. If you want to build a Confederate statue or put the ten commandments in your front yard there's not much anybody could do to stop you. Again we're addressing statues in public areas or that are being kept up by tax money privacy is a completely different matter.
Well stated
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#4
TheUnderdog
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@Polytheist-Witch
How many Genghis Khan statues do we have in the US?  Not sure we get to tell other countries what they can and can't do.
There is a US company named after Ghengis Khan.  If Mongolia is allowed to have statues of leaders that raped, we are allowed statues of pro slavery generals.

Actually people are spending money on having religious statues removed from taxpayer property.
You don't see any of these people advocating for banning religion, but you see plenty of people advocate for banning the confederate flag.

Again we're addressing statues in public areas or that are being kept up by tax money privacy is a completely different matter.
I don't think governments spend money on statues that are already built.  They were built over a hundred years ago and they just stay there.  No matinence necesesary.  If matinence is necesesary, mantaining them is like Mongolia mantaining Ghengis Khan statues.
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Double_R
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@TheUnderdog
why should we waste tax dollars on taking down confederate statues and prohibiting people from flying the confederate flag?
Statues are how we glorify our history, which is in turn a public statement of our values.

Please explain what there is to glorify about the confederacy.

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#6
TheUnderdog
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@Double_R
Statues are how we glorify our history
Not always; I've seen Boy Scout statues, even though boy scouts aren't prominent in American history.

Please explain what there is to glorify about the confederacy.
I'm not a southerner; your asking the wrong person.  I think it's a lot like Mongolia glorifying Ghengis Khan or Egypt not taking down their pyramids (which were built by slaves).
#7
SkepticalOne
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@TheUnderdog
Please explain what there is to glorify about the confederacy.
I'm not a southerner; your asking the wrong person.  I think it's a lot like Mongolia glorifying Ghengis Khan or Egypt not taking down their pyramids (which were built by slaves).
I'm a southerner - the Confederacy deserves no glorification. Besides, many of these statues were erected as symbols of white supremacy. Case in point, a surge in 'commemorative statues' occurred as Jim Crow laws were also 'commemorating' (aggressively attacking) African Americans civil rights. 


Most of these monuments did not go up immediately after the war’s end in 1865. During that time, commemorative markers of the Civil War tended to be memorials that mourned soldiers who had died, says Mark Elliott, a history professor at University of North Carolina, Greensboro.

“Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.  [Link]

Graph showing this correspondence in link. Blue indicates courthouses, red signifies other places including memorials, and green represents schools: [Link]
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#8
TheUnderdog
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@SkepticalOne
I'm a southerner - the Confederacy deserves no glorification.
I think conservative southerners would disagree.

I think removing statues is a waste of money.  The left thinks these statues should be put in a museum, but then civil war museums would be filled with confederate statues and they don't need them.
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@TheUnderdog
Conservative southerners opinions carry no greater weight than mine....  You have not addressed the substance of my post. 

Fwiw, maintaining Confederate statues in perpetuity stands to be much more expensive than taking them down - and why should I or anyone care if they can all fit in a museum?
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#10
TheUnderdog
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@SkepticalOne
Conservative southerners opinions carry no greater weight than mine, and you have not addressed the substance of my post. 
I just figured they might know something either of us don't.

Your post indicated that confederate statues were erected due to segregation.  However, segregation is over so it's just pieces of metal that are in the public eye.

Fwiw, maintaining Confederate statues in perpetuity stands to be much more expensive than taking them down
How does it cost money to maintain a statue?  You just build it and it stays there.  Dust gets washed off by rain.

why should I or anyone care if they can all fit in a museum?
The museum is going to care because it would be overkill for a civil war museum.  They already have all the statues they need.  The extra statues are going to degrade the value of the business because too many statues makes it unappealing for customers.
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n8nrgmi
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@TheUnderdog
should germany erect statutes of hitler and put them up for prominent display in public areas? 

if you think there's a difference in taking them down and putting them up, would you agree that there shouldn't be statutes of hitler at all? do you recognize that all reputable academic sources say the confederacy was about slavery? not just as part of the reason... that's the reason they went to war. 

you say museums might not have room for the statues but would you agree that the proper place would be a museum if there was room and there was no cost issues? 
#12
Ramshutu
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@TheUnderdog
So let’s start off with a simple question - why do you  think that Stalin and Saddam out up statues of themselves?

To teach history?
#13
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@TheUnderdog
Your post indicated that confederate statues were erected due to segregation.  However, segregation is over so it's just pieces of metal that are in the public eye.
No. My post explicitly stated many of these statues are symbols of white supremacy. As such, the statues are not just pieces of metal in the public eye because the intended purpose has not been forgotten by those who were targeted by it. That is why these statues must go. 

The museum is going to care because it would be overkill for a civil war museum. 

Museums being unable to save all statues is no reason to continue commemorating hate. 'There is no where for these statues except in the public square' isn't a great argument...especially when many were commissioned to marginalize part of our society.
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#14
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@n8nrgmi
should germany erect statutes of hitler and put them up for prominent display in public areas? 
Waste of money.

would you agree that there shouldn't be statutes of hitler at all?
Yes; however if there were statues of Hitler, taking them down is a waste of money.  People aren't in Halocausts because of a piece of metal.

do you recognize that all reputable academic sources say the confederacy was about slavery? not just as part of the reason... that's the reason they went to war. 
Yes

you say museums might not have room for the statues but would you agree that the proper place would be a museum if there was room and there was no cost issues? 
Sure; why not.  I think removing or placing any statue is a waste of money unless it pays for its self (I think Mount Rushmore pays for its self due to tourism).  But taking down any statue is a cost, a waste of money, and not worth government intervention.  If you want confederate statues taken down, develop a private sector fund to take down statues of confederates and pay for it using the funds of consenting donators instead of forcibly obtained tax dollars.  Also buy the statue from the state before you relocate it because the statues are government owned.  Time to lower taxes by at least a little bit by having confederate statue sales pay a little bit for schools used by an integrated classroom.


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TheUnderdog
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@Ramshutu
So let’s start off with a simple question - why do you  think that Stalin and Saddam out up statues of themselves?

To teach history?
They are narcists.  All statues are a waste of money if built by the government if they don't pay for themselves.


#16
Polytheist-Witch
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I'm sorry but stating if Mongolia is allowed to do it we're allowed to do it makes no sense. We are a completely different country with a completely different set of values. It doesn't matter if they're maintaining any sort of money on the statue if it's on public property it's a taxpayer statue.
#17
MarkWebberFan
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Can't apply universal verdicts on polemical issues when cultures themselves share no similarities.imo
#18
secularmerlin
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@TheUnderdog
Egypt not taking down their pyramids (which were built by slaves).
Actually there is absolutely zero archeological evidence for this. Teams of professional stonemasons worked on these public works projects. They were paid beer,bread and meat as well as receiving burial sometimes in attached structures and some in smaller structures nearby the pyramid.
#19
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@secularmerlin
Can you link the source for that?
#20
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Khan Academy is named after Salman Khan, its founder...
#21
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@Double_R
Statues are how we glorify our history, which is in turn a public statement of our values.

That would be an absolutely retarded reason to put up a statue. 

I think maybe non Americans get this opinion from seeing statues basically be worshipped in non American countries. Like the Saddam hussein statue that was toppled.

This is why statues of people still alive are disgusting. It is an attempt to seek worship. 

Generally speaking it is a piece of art work to remember things from the past. 

If you see a statue of a confederate general, it is not supposed to make you fawn over him. It is supposed to inspire you to learn about the individual and his part in history. 

Even statues of people we like are supposed to do that. 

it's okay to have heroes, but making a hero into a statue is a form of worship and should reserved for God. 

The south should not ignore or be proud of their history. It's easy to forget the reason for all the bloodshed back in the Civil War era, and removing confederate statues does more to make people forget than to remember. 

With that said, if somebody happens to topple them
 I say fuck it. Let them stay down. They cost too much to be maintained and that money could be spent on better things. 
#22
Double_R
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@Wylted
This is why statues of people still alive are disgusting. It is an attempt to seek worship.
I fail to see what the person being alive has to do with it.

It’s not about worship, it’s about glorification. The United Center in Chicago has a statue of Micheal Jordon outside, that’s not about worship. It’s about symbolizing the greatness which Jordan brought to the team during that period. If the Bulls has never won an NBA title that wouldn’t be there.

The idea that statues are supposed to encourage people to study their history is ad hoc nonsense. The only place you will hear that logic is in the southern United States where people twist themselves into pretzels trying to rationalize why they have literal traitors to the constitution propped up as heroes.
#23
Athias
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@TheUnderdog
The irony of this subject is that most of the confederate statues are located in the Bible belt. Christian principles would dictate that these statues be taken down anyway because it's against God's directive against graven images. Funny enough, there are also pagan statues in the Bible belt. I wonder why that is?
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#24
TheUnderdog
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@Athias
 Christian principles would dictate that these statues be taken down anyway because it's against God's directive against graven images. Funny enough, there are also pagan statues in the Bible belt. I wonder why that is?
Good point; however separation of church and state prohibits legal policy from being made on religious grounds.  Otherwise we would have to ban abortion and gay sex and punish them as they are to be in the bible.
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Athias
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@TheUnderdog
Good point; however separation of church and state prohibits legal policy from being made on religious grounds.  Otherwise we would have to ban abortion and gay sex and punish them as they are to be in the bible
Yes, but because legal policy is dependent on referendums decided by majoritarian consensus, the inclinations of the area's/region's voter base hold weight especially for politicians, who naturally lack convictions of their own.

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#26
TheUnderdog
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@Athias
So your saying if a majority of the people in a town wanted a confederate statue (or any statue) taken down, it would be taken down?  That seems fair.  Referendums should be every year or so because I think people change their minds on this stuff.