Give me the goods

Author: MonkeyKing

Posts

Total: 37
MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
Whether atheist, agnostic, or theist what do you see as the benefiting factor that most prominently contributes to your belief. To be clear, I'm not asking what caused your belief or lack thereof but rather why maintain your position? 

Me personally, I stay a religious person because I know spirituality has, and does, help me overcome challenges while having the possibility to help others. Without the focus on God that I've had I can be quite confident that I personally wouldn't have had the focus on personal growth that I have.

Lemme hear what ya got
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,984
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@MonkeyKing
Your exact reasoning is my exact reasoning

I've had some pretty rough days earlier this year. With one of your friends committing suicide and then having to isolate yourself from the world because of COVID, my mental health was pretty shit. My faith is probably the only thing that kept me from going crazy. Knowing that God was with me and would help me through these times was something that really helped me push through.
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@Vader
That's interesting, I used to have the exact opposite effect when I was a believer when things like that happened. I have a lot of relatives who feel the same way you do, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I just can't bring myself to think that way, as the answers to the inevitable questions never make any sense to me. I find comfort, for lack of a better word, knowing that ultimately I'm only responsible for my own actions, and the people who are going to hold me accountable besides myself are the ones I care about, and that luck both good and bad is evenly distributed throughout the world, and that one day my entire life will be forgotten, and I'll return to the physical elements that make me up, which maybe one day will end up as a comet or a planet or a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam, as the saying goes. 
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,984
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@ludofl3x
I agree with you to a certain degree. I do believe we are responsible for our own actions and how the world perceives them. However, I believe God as someone to look too for help on your journey in this world. If you live by the guide that god has send you, you will never feel lonely.

In the scenario I presented, there was genuinely nothing I could do about the situation. I don't want to get in detail but it was out of my control and I felt that I had no control. God was the one I feel that kept me stable, especially throughout those troubling times I endured. 
 
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@Vader
I don't want to get in detail but it was out of my control and I felt that I had no control. God was the one I feel that kept me stable, especially throughout those troubling times I endured. 
 
I'm a firm believer in whatever it takes to get you through the night. 

But don't mistake what I'm saying: not that you could have done anything about it, that's not what I mean by responsibility and accountability. What you're talking about is what I meant by the distribution of bad 'luck,' which is kind of the wrong word. Bad things happen to all people, sometimes it's just your turn when the wheel stops turning. 
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
Everyone is responsible for their own actions I don't know where the hell that statement even comes from. I continue to engage in my practice because I can't believe that there are dead relatives and spirits around me and just ignore that and not honor them the way I should. It's lazy.
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
I can't believe that there are dead relatives and spirits around me and just ignore that and not honor them the way I should. It's lazy.
So you maintain your position out of what you feel is an obligation to these spirits and relatives to do so? 
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
If I believe that that's true then yes it would be not only lazy but a lie for me to live in a way that does not honor them the way I'm supposed to.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,060
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@MonkeyKing
I have a conditioned database, just like everyone else.

So I assess and manage data input and output relative to pre-set parameters.

To me, attributing credibility to supernatural hypotheses has always seemed irrational.

And nothing has ever caused me to think differently.


Spirituality is an internal response to a perceived stimulus....Real enough within that context....But never exceeding that context.

And "GOD" is one of many internally constructed labels we attribute to such  internal spiritual conclusions.


Our databases are limited by the unavailability of knowledge.....So any GOD based assumption can only ever be what it is.

In my conditioned opinion....A 2000 year old superhuman hypothesis, just falls a few billions of years short of the mark.
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@MonkeyKing
To be clear, I'm not asking what caused your belief or lack thereof but rather why maintain your position? 

Commonsense, logic and evidence (indication). That's what maintains my position. In other words I wouldn't hold a position that wasn't supported by one of those three or all three of them. 

Me personally, I stay a religious person because I know spirituality has, and does, help me overcome challenges 

This is a great point and very true. Spirituality also helps to open up ones consciousness to have greater awareness. I often refer to spirituality as a cultivation, it is very much like a life long progression. 
MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@Vader
Very interesting and very cool. I've always been of the opinion that spirituality is especially helpful when life is difficult, good to see I'm not alone in that opinion.
MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@ludofl3x
I can actually get on board with this quite a bit. To be honest, if everyone took this stance and had responsibility for themselves and their loved ones we'd be a happier people. I also find it very interesting to hear that you find peace within becoming another part of nature. A nicer way to look at things then what I previously envisioned. Personally, when I hear atheists tell me they're going to turn into dirt and then that's that it always makes me a bit sad to think that's all they aspire to. Your opinion is a little deeper though which I appreciate. Simply having the desire to exist, do so happily, and then allow what comes next is respectable.
MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
I find your position especially interesting here. So you belief is centered largely on a sense of duty and responsibility from what I gather? In my personal experience, the larger masses keep their inner belief because it's what gets them through rather than practicing something because of an obligation to others. If you don't mind me asking, what invokes that sense of duty? You mentioned that if you didn't hold your belief it would be hypocritical, why is that the case?
MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@zedvictor4
If you haven't already, I recommend checking out Hyrum Smith and his "Belief Window" model. It does come in a religious context so be forewarned, but it puts to scale what you explain in the beginning of your post in a religious mindset which might be interesting for you to check out. Anyway, if I understand correctly you maintain your position because of lack of knowledge? Not to say you are unintelligent, but you mention a lack, or rather unavailability, of knowledge regarding God. Assuming that is the reason, I would assume then that you spend quite a lot of time studying? I'm curious to your motivation, for if it is an unavailability of knowledge then what is your recourse? And if you were then to come across some new knowledge(whatever it might be) that you didn't have before would that potentially change your position then?
MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@EtrnlVw
Would you mind extrapolating on those first three, commonsense, logic, and evidence? Do you mean that these are requirements and the basis of your faith or more that they act as supporting pillars? And just out of curiosity, if you find yourself missing one of those does it make a difference?

This is a great point and very true. Spirituality also helps to open up ones consciousness to have greater awareness. I often refer to spirituality as a cultivation, it is very much like a life long progression. 
On my religious mission, this was likely the greatest realization I came to. I so often wish I could just dump the understanding of this concept into another's brain. Far too frequently people aspire to perfection and think they see it among others so they only become increasingly discouraged. Making peace with one's imperfection and choosing to improve slowly, recognizing failures and seeing them as opportunities to grow for the future, is just incredible. Cultivation is a great description, very fitting. A slow, rewarding, painful, and gratifying process.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,060
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@MonkeyKing
In terms of a beginning you would undoubtedly lack the same knowledge as I do....As every one else did or does.

Knowledge of a 2000 year old hypothesis is simply that.

Though as I stated, a 2000 year old hypothesis falls a few billion years short of the mark.

And Hyrum Smith was a product of his day and his particular environment.

And just like us, Hyrum didn't actually have a clue.
MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@zedvictor4
While I appreciate that is your position, you didn't answer my question really. 

Knowledge of a 2000 year old hypothesis is simply that.

Though as I stated, a 2000 year old hypothesis falls a few billion years short of the mark.

Let me see if I can lay this out in simple terms for my brain. You know of religion as a 2000 year old hypothesis. You know that it is "a few billion years short." So while you know these things, that religion in your terms is too young and creation too old, then that means your opinion is developed entirely by what you consider knowledge. Knowledge that is quite recent, all things considered. Does this knowledge then make you exempt from any future potential discovery? Or to put it another way as I had mentioned before, what then is your motivation to your belief?
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,060
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@MonkeyKing
Firstly let's make it clear, that I have no BELIEF......Just acceptance of ideas.....All ideas....But I conclude that some ideas are more rational than others.

Religion is too young and creation is too old.....In a nutshell.

I am not exempt from future discovery.

Though there is always "potential" for anything or nothing.

"Potential" is a red herring. 


Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
I have a belief, but definitely not religious. Any god who specifically requires people to do something and just expect us to obey cannot be classified as all-powerful or all-good(Hume's guillotine when?)
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@MonkeyKing
My beliefs are in a constant state of flux. 

Due to the factor: Not Enough Information
MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@Intelligence_06
So then I would assume from you citing Hume's Guillotine that what causes you to keep your position is a belief that the idea of a deity dictating divine law is contradictory? I would then assume though that as you state you have a belief that you have some reasoning behind the "ought" of belief, whatever it is?
MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@janesix
My beliefs are in a constant state of flux. 
Fair enough.

Due to the factor: Not Enough Information
What might you consider "enough" information? Or do you believe that it is even possible to reach a point where you have enough knowledge to stake a religious claim?

MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@zedvictor4
If potential is a "red herring", then what is centerfold in your mind that it might draw attention from? Personally, I find potential as really the basis for science, religion, or belief. In my opinion, we discover to find new potential for ourselves or to understand the potential of other things. I'm curious what you then see as what potential would be diverting us from.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@MonkeyKing
When one considers a religious law holy, it means they agree with it(subjectively) and not that it is correct(objectively). Essentially, it comes down to my family education not involved in any organized religion, as well as me being exposed to subjective aspects of philosophy early enough to not be brainwashed by anything except when I REALLY believe in it.
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@MonkeyKing
Ramshutus Razor.

I should not be able to think of a universe that is better than the one we live in - if we measure “best” in terms of Gods values and motivations.

If you postulate a God, what their values and motivations are, then if you can think of a universe that better meets those values and motivations than the one we are in, that God cannot exist.


Conversely, one can take the universe and determine in what way it appears optimal; and use that to determine motivations and values.


The first - no postulated God passes the razor.
The second - no postulated values for which the universe appears optimal are logically coherent with concepts of God.

Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@MonkeyKing
I find your position especially interesting here. So you belief is centered largely on a sense of duty and responsibility from what I gather? In my personal experience, the larger masses keep their inner belief because it's what gets them through rather than practicing something because of an obligation to others. If you don't mind me asking, what invokes that sense of duty? You mentioned that if you didn't hold your belief it would be hypocritical, why is that the case?
I know from personal experience that spirit exist. To ignore that would be hypocritical. I feel the need to engage and do for them as they also do for me the same as I would a living  person. I might have misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking what do you get to as a benefit from my belief. Not a factor for my belief. Caring for my dead us a priority even over working with the gods.
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@MonkeyKing
Would you mind extrapolating on those first three, commonsense, logic, and evidence? Do you mean that these are requirements and the basis of your faith or more that they act as supporting pillars?

They act as supporting pillars. I've adjusted my beliefs through the years where appropriate. Somethings we are led to believe and other things we follow reality to believe. I've always tried to make sense of my beliefs though as far back as I could remember, to me it's just my love for logic/truth coupled with my passion for spirituality. They blend ever so lovely together.

And just out of curiosity, if you find yourself missing one of those does it make a difference?

It's hard to say I'd have to really think about which aspect of my beliefs are missing one of those three. You have to remember though, I'm obsessed with theorizing, considering all angles of each scenario and connecting theory to reality whether that be from observation, experience, commonsense, corresponding sources, cross referencing or philosophical propositions. 

With spirituality and religion we don't always have immediate access to hard evidence even though they are built upon observation. So sometimes it's simply best to go with commonsense or logic to determine if something is stupid to accept or has good reason to consider it. If you already know or are 99.9 % sure God exists you can be very open-minded about many aspects of information and Theistic knowledge....once wrestling with whether or not God exists is no longer an obstacle things change dramatically if you're an obsessed thinker. For one, if God exists it changes the dynamics of reality so while things can get very strange everything must harmonize with logic.

There's no reason to ever abandon any one of those three or even all three when evaluating beliefs like for example, would God do this if I wouldn't? or could this have happened if we never see it take place in reality? or why would I need to accept anything that seems absurd just because someone claimed it at some point? there's clear logical guidelines to follow in a sea of information.
When you question things to have deeper understanding answers pop up, you will be presented with alternative solutions. 

So, if I'm making a philosophical decision it might not matter if hard evidence is there to support the theory because I already know God exists, it's just a matter of what makes sense and what follows through with reality but again, some people might be surprised at how dynamic spirituality can get yet at the same time there's never any reason to steer away from logic, reason or commonsense.

On my religious mission, this was likely the greatest realization I came to. I so often wish I could just dump the understanding of this concept into another's brain.

Lol I feel you on that one. That's our curse as God lovers, we want everyone to experience what life has to offer on a spiritual level. Just keep yourself open to information and don't limit your beliefs to doctrine or dogma unless they are appropriate for application. And then you will always experience something you haven't before, don't hold anything back from God and God won't hold anything back from you. One thing people tend to trap themselves into, is lack of freedom. Religion (not referring to any particular) seems to have a knack for locking up a souls freedom in God, it's funny...they cleared the intellectual hurdle of whether or not God exists and now they have set themselves up behind barriers that limit their understanding of the Creator.

Far too frequently people aspire to perfection and think they see it among others so they only become increasingly discouraged. Making peace with one's imperfection and choosing to improve slowly, recognizing failures and seeing them as opportunities to grow for the future, is just incredible. Cultivation is a great description, very fitting. A slow, rewarding, painful, and gratifying process.

You come across as a down to earth, realistic and logical guy. Hopefully you contribute more to this section of the forum.


zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,060
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@MonkeyKing
One can attribute potential to something known.

But something unknown or imaginary does not have real potential.

Science, religion and belief are all human potentials, relative to our ability to construct remember and record complex data sequences. 


An imaginary deity cannot have true potential, only fictional potential.

The potential is in how you or I might manage such data and formulate a response.


So the potential of  imaginary deities, manifests as religions and wars for example.




MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@Ramshutu
While an interesting concept, it would seem there may be a lot of subjectivity involved that would it make it difficult to quantify this as absolute. It is really impossible to know whether a different universe/version of existence would be better than this one, let alone the "best", without actually experiencing it. Not to knock it, but it seems like this is taking "the grass is greener on the other side" to the full extent. I do, however, find very much enjoy the point here:
Conversely, one can take the universe and determine in what way it appears optimal; and use that to determine motivations and values.
This has a lot more potential for broad usage and is very interesting in concept. If put in to practice, could you give me an example of how you would, or have, applied this yourself?
MonkeyKing
MonkeyKing's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 49
0
0
5
MonkeyKing's avatar
MonkeyKing
0
0
5
-->
@Intelligence_06
I'm afraid I'm still not 100% understanding here, but think I'm getting there. I understand, and agree with, your take on how holy law is subjective which makes lots of sense. In total, to guess, you would say that you maintain your position as a result of your personal background/family as well as a distaste for any claiming a religious law as universal and/or objective? And out of curiosity, what then would you say could cause you to, as you say, "REALLY believe"? Most any, if not all, belief at some point is going to make an objective claim regarding morality at some point, if not at the very least making an objective claim that morality is subjective.