Systemic Racism in U.S. criminal justice is a myth

Author: Mesmer

Posts

Total: 66
Topic's author
#1
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
Most people know that Blacks are arrested more often than Whites. Some people see this as systemic racism. Some people see this as Blacks being arrested more because they commit more crimes. I'm going to demonstrate that it's the latter using several arguments.


(1) Arrest Rates and Victimization Reports

We can confirm the validity of official arrest rates via the high degree to which they correspond with victimization reports. Using the National Crime Victimization Survey (for victimization reports) and the Uniform Crime Report (for official arrest rates), we can see that there is high correspondence (Last, 2015): 1.jpg (740×146) (thealternativehypothesis.org) . The fact that there is high correspondence is evidence that arrests being made are legitimate (i.e. not based on systemic racism, but rather actual crime).


(2) Black Misbehavior at School

Blacks get into trouble far more often at school than Whites do:

- Black preschoolers have an above average rate of suspension. Blacks make up 18% of preschools yet 50% of suspensions Education Department: Black preschoolers more likely to be suspended - CBS News 
- Black females account for 12% of elementary school suspensions, but White females only accounted for 2% Schools’ Discipline for Girls Differs by Race and Hue - The New York Times (nytimes.com) 
- A Department of Education report analyzed over 72,000 schools and found that Blacks were 18% of the population, yet 35% of people suspended once, 45% suspended more than once, and 39% of those expelled Black Students Face More Harsh Discipline, Data Shows - The New York Times (nytimes.com) 
- After controlling for socio-economic status, Black middle schoolers were more likely to be suspended than White middle schoolers The Color of Discipline: Sources of Racial and Gender Disproportionality in School Punishment (ccsd.net) 

A potential counter-argument to this is that teachers have racial bias against Blacks. However, there is strong evidence against this. When comparing Blacks and Whites with the same number of previous behavioral problem, both groups were as likely to be suspended Prior problem behavior accounts for the racial gap in school suspensions - ScienceDirect . Also, Blacks and Whites were equally likely to face suspension if they were sent to the principal's office The Color of Discipline: Sources of Racial and Gender Disproportionality in School Punishment (ccsd.net)  .

Due to differences in Black crime rates reflecting the non-biased rate in which Blacks get in trouble at school, this adds evidence to the U.S. criminal justice system being legitimate.


(3) Dug Crime

Some people claim that Blacks do less drugs than Whites, but Blacks are arrested more, therefore systemic racism exists.


Secondly, Blacks are more likely to buy drugs outdoors than White people (which is riskier in terms of being caught) at 0.31 correlation versus White's 0.14. Blacks are about three times likely to buy from a stranger (0.3 versus 0.09). Blacks are also significantly more likely to buy away from their homes (0.61 versus 0.48) Racial differences in marijuana-users' risk of arrest in the United States - PubMed (nih.gov) . This riskier buying of drugs makes Blacks more likely to be caught.

Lastly, a report from the Justice Department found that Blacks are more likely to use drugs than Whites, use more dangerous drugs than Whites, and are more likely to take drugs in areas with high crime rates The Racial Disparity in U.S. Drug Arrests (ojp.gov) . 

Based on the research, it is wise to assume that Blacks getting arrested more for drug use is a result of their higher drug usage (despite them lying about it), taking drugs in riskier areas, and buying drugs in riskier places.


(4) Police Brutality

It has become popular in some circles to claim that police are disproportionately brutal/murderous against Blacks. The data shows otherwise.

Using the National Crime Victimization Survey and the Uniform Crime Report like we did in point (1), we see that Blacks account for about 1/3 of rape and assaults, over half of robbery crimes -- the two data points agree (thus Blacks are being arrested as much as you would expect, given the amount of crime they do).

Also, using the Uniform Crime Report only, we see that Blacks are about 1/2 of the murderers, 38% of violent crime, and 29% of people arrested FBI — Table 43 . Given these facts, if police only killed criminals who posed a serious threat to society, and if these criminals were on average equally likely to be killed by police, we would expect people killed by police to be Black between 29% and 38% of the time.

Using other data points to see if people killed by police are Black 29-38% of the time, we have an analysis of Uniform Crime Report data which shows 32% of those killed by police were Black Police Killings of Blacks: Here Is What the Data Say - The New York Times (nytimes.com) . Another analysis of data found 30% Microsoft Word - Moskos 2015 why be a cop.docx (petermoskos.com) . Therefore, Blacks are indeed being killed at about the rate you'd expect based on the percentage of Blacks who are violent criminals (which means that based on this data, officers aren't being biased against Blacks).


(5) Unfair Sentencing

When controlling for how Blacks present themselves in courtrooms, how likely he/she will commit another crime in the future, Verbal IQ and self reported history of violence, we see that there is no unjust racial sentencing gap No evidence of racial discrimination in criminal justice processing: Results from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health - ScienceDirect . 


Conclusion

For the above reasons, we should reject the notion of "systemic racism" in the U.S. criminal justice system as being a myth.

Arguments largely copied from Ryan Faulk and Sean Last's works. Credit should go to them.
#2
dfss9788
dfss9788's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 152
1
2
2
dfss9788's avatar
dfss9788
1
2
2
#3
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
What about White people get almost no time for keeping weed while black people get years? 
Topic's author
#4
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
Firstly, this is a lazy, garbage way of making arguments. I don't expect anything better from useless, genuine idiots like Reece101, but you've shown that you're capable of actually engaging with the papers themselves. This is quite disappointing.

Secondly, you haven't contended with any of the 5 points I made before this, so I guess you agree with all of them.

Thirdly, the paper's data you're referencing is actually really good and attempted to control for a lot of the confounding variables. It's a pity that you didn't give the paper the showcase it deserves. You should have linked the whole paper and cited the nationwide statistics, because they better make your argument (rather than the Texas only graph you linked).

Unfortunately, the paper doesn't control for the fact that Blacks are more likely to speed The Racial Profiling Myth Debunked | City Journal | Racial Research (city-journal.org) Racial differences in speeding patterns: Exploring the differential offending hypothesis - ScienceDirect, and speeding tends to happen during the daytime (usually when people are running late for work in the morning: Why Do Drivers Speed? | The Regulatory Review (theregreview.org) ) . Speeding was normalized in this paper, but that doesn't mean it was controlled for relative to time of day, and it should have been based on the evidence of the studies above.

A second variable that was not controlled for was the fact that Blacks tend to live in worse neighborhoods (something the left and right agree on, but happy to source if needed), and thus going out at night in 'the hood' or low SES place is usually not a great idea. So, having fewer proportionally Black people on the road after dark compared to White people due to this fact needed to be controlled for, but wasn't.
Topic's author
#5
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@Intelligence_06
What about White people get almost no time for keeping weed while black people get years? 
[Citation needed]

#6
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Intelligence_06
whites and blacks smoke weed just as often, but blacks tend to go to jail more often for it.

I seen the study. 

This is easily explained in the study itself. Black people are more likely to smoke and deal drugs in public, like on corners. 

Cops are not in our homes, they can't tell when people are dealing drugs to friends I. Private and smoking in the comfort of their home.

However it is easy for cops to arrest you for it, if you are smoking weed in your car and it is filled with smoke while you go down the highway, and it is easy to get caught when you deal on a street corner to everyone including strangers than when you just deal to very trusted people close to you, and only in your garage. 

If anything, drug laws are meant to target blacks, but police will arrest a white person drug dealing in public, just as fast as a black person. Courts once you account for prior convictions, hand out similar sentences to blacks and whites. 
#7
dfss9788
dfss9788's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 152
1
2
2
dfss9788's avatar
dfss9788
1
2
2
Firstly, this is a lazy, garbage way of making arguments. I don't expect anything better from useless, genuine idiots like Reece101, but you've shown that you're capable of actually engaging with the papers themselves. This is quite disappointing.

Secondly, you haven't contended with any of the 5 points I made before this, so I guess you agree with all of them.

Thirdly, the paper's data you're referencing is actually really good and attempted to control for a lot of the confounding variables. It's a pity that you didn't give the paper the showcase it deserves. You should have linked the whole paper and cited the nationwide statistics, because they better make your argument (rather than the Texas only graph you linked).
Mountain out of a mole hill. All I did was post a link.

Unfortunately, the paper doesn't control for the fact that Blacks are more likely to speed The Racial Profiling Myth Debunked | City Journal | Racial Research (city-journal.org) Racial differences in speeding patterns: Exploring the differential offending hypothesis - ScienceDirect, and speeding tends to happen during the daytime (usually when people are running late for work in the morning: Why Do Drivers Speed? | The Regulatory Review (theregreview.org) ) . Speeding was normalized in this paper, but that doesn't mean it was controlled for relative to time of day, and it should have been based on the evidence of the studies above.
Even if it's true I don't see how that would much of an impact on the Figure 2 graphs in the "veil of darkness" study. The pull overs occurred during the evening after people got off work and such and it had 3 different times (presumably differing sunset hours due to change in the time of sunset over the course of the year). I would be interested in seeing the data from sunrise stops as opposed to sunset stops but I don't see that in the study.

A second variable that was not controlled for was the fact that Blacks tend to live in worse neighborhoods (something the left and right agree on, but happy to source if needed), and thus going out at night in 'the hood' or low SES place is usually not a great idea. So, having fewer proportionally Black people on the road after dark compared to White people due to this fact needed to be controlled for, but wasn't.
There may be data on that, but I don't know where it is.

I encourage you to review this article -


I'm sure you're aware of the implicit association test. The data indicate that about half of whites favor whites over blacks, about a quarter of whites have no preference, and about a quarter of whites favor blacks over whites. In other words, by about 2 to 1, the number of whites who favor whites over blacks outnumber the the number of whites who favor blacks over whites. The decision of a white police officer to pull someone over is a subjective one that is made quickly, and I do not think it even possible for ethnocentric feelings to be eliminated from that decision. That there would be disparities in quick and subjective decisions like these is what I would expect. When a black person is in an environment with white police officers, well that these things are going to happen is just how it is.

I do think there are myths about systemic racism in criminal justice. The myths are simply how substantial a factor is racism. That it is a factor, I do not doubt. Your position seems to be that it's no factor at all, and on the other extreme we have people saying that racism is the sole cause of the observed disparities in outcomes. I doubt either of these positions to be correct. What is more likely is that racism is a factor, and it is something we should try to mitigate, but we cannot blind ourselves to other causes for doing so permits social problems to fester.
#8
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Systemic racism in a justice system isn't only arrest rates.

It's both the complete disparity in opportunities some races have in society to escape poverty and a crime-filled environment through to the sentencing some ethnicities receive vs others for the exact same crime. 

Then, it's how both get treated and protected or neglected by COs post-arrest (which can onclude how readily vs hesitantly they're rewarded and reduced sentence for good behavior).


Topic's author
#9
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
Systemic racism in a justice system isn't only arrest rates.
Yes. That's why I had 4 sub-headings addressing things that weren't arrest rates LOL.

All you're doing is showing that you didn't read the OP.

It's both the complete disparity in opportunities some races have in society to escape poverty and a crime-filled environment through to the sentencing some ethnicities receive vs others for the exact same crime. 

Then, it's how both get treated and protected or neglected by COs post-arrest (which can onclude how readily vs hesitantly they're rewarded and reduced sentence for good behavior).
Firstly, you've failed to show evidence for any of this, so all of these points are bare assertions (logical fallacies).

Secondly, I specifically already addressed the sentencing disparity in point (5). You don't know that because you didn't read the OP past the heading of point (1).

Congratulations. You've made the worst post so far on this thread.

#10
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Intelligence_06
What about White people get almost no time for keeping weed while black people get years? 

There's many articles describing extenuating factors such as 3 strikes or additional crimes unrelated to drug possession at the time of arrest and conviction. Many of the instances which are plea bargained down to the lesser drug possession charge.

Your claim is similar to conflating dying from Covid with dying WITH Covid.

In fact, it's much more likely for a POC to get a lighter sentence for the same circumstances as a non-POC due to the overwhelming social bias today that assumes a POC needs welfare and favors as a genetic victim, especially if he gets a wimpy-feely White Judge. It's already been shown police, especially White police, are more reluctant to engage POC for the same reason.

#11
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Mesmer
Here is the conclusion of a statistical study tracking Black Judge sentencing.

Our analysis of Pennsylvania sentencing practices adds to the small num-
ber of empirical studies of the effects of judge’s race on sentencing out-
comes. More so than past research, our analysis is based on current or 1990s
sentencing practices, involves a large number of cases, includes rigorous
controls for legally relevant variables, and considers whether white and black
judges use similar/distinct criteria in their sentencing decisions.
We find many similarities between black and white judges’ sentencing
decisions. There is considerable overlap in the sentences imposed and in the
weighing of criteria for determining sentence severity. For example, the legal
variables of prior criminal history and offense seriousness are the main de-
terminants of the sentencing decisions of black as well as white judges; both
invoke a “trial penalty,” and so forth. These findings are consistent with the
organizational position (versus the “individual” or “person” viewpoint),
which postulates that the powerful influences of selection and socialization
to the judicial role will largely offset pre-officeholding attitudes of judges.
However, we also find a noteworthy race-of-judge difference: black judges
are somewhat more likely to incarcerate defendants and hence are more punitive
in their sentencing decisions. Importantly, this difference is uniform regardless
of whether the defendant is black or white. The significance of black judges’
greater punitiveness in the decision whether or not to incarcerate rests partly
on the actuality that a prison sentence, regardless of its length, is potentially
stigmatizing and severing of employment and ties to communities, families,
and friends, and also potentially perilous, since inmates face risks of violence
and sexual victimization at the hands of other inmates.

Taken together, our findings are contrary to three prevalent assumptions
in the literature: (1) that black judges would be more lenient or “softer” on
defendants as a whole because they will sympathize with the underdog and
the poor (which defendants disproportionately are); (2) that black judges
would favor or be softer on black defendants and (3) that black judges would
be more even-handed in their sentencing decisions and that increasing the number
of black judges would contribute to greater equality in sentencing practices. Instead, black and
white judges appear equally even-handed (or biased).

In short, white Judges are (relative) pussies when it comes to sentencing due to social stigmas and the weak moral convictions of most whites.

#12
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Wylted
I don't know how in 2021 that people can't understand that POC in America is the most sought after and desirable social status. It's at the top of the social hierarchy.

It's the pussy whites desperately scrambling for POC street cred, not the other way around. Anyone with a hint of color auto-identifies as Black in almost every instance if they can pass as Black, just like Obama. It's the preferred in-group in America.

People do NOT get punished for demonizing whites in 2021. They get rewarded in EVERY case.
#13
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Greyparrot
I'm going to deep dive into this later, but things are brighter than you suspect
#14
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Congratulations. You've made the worst post so far on this thread.
From you, that's a compliment. You are a toxic user with a blatantly racist and far-right agenda here, I don't really need to worry how you see me. You thinking ill of me, on balance, is probably a good thing considering what you think is good is consistently evil.

As for the proof you say I lack, it's out there and I already know each thing I post you won't address or consider, you'll just dismiss but for others reading this who are interested where to start, it's safe to ignore the entire OP that I was accused of ignoring, but waste your time reading it if you must.

Instead, there's basically a ton of documentaries and stuff to digest the information from, far more than I am compiling here, I'm just giving you starting points.


^ an unbiased documenting of active policy changes and rule changes that BLM and allied movements have caused the change of (so that it's less racist now than it used to be, not negating what it originally was and definitely not leaving the entire thing as a myth even today).

^What's great about this is that it links to other sources and articles on the matter all of which are valid reads in their own right, making it an incredible starting point.

Start with those three and everything they link you to, then PM me if you're genuinely interested in the subject. It's best not to engage with far-right trolls here on the matter, they will just drag you down and wind you up.
#15
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9
-->
@RationalMadman
you guys should do a debate.
Topic's author
#16
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
Mountain out of a mole hill. All I did was post a link.
Oh yes. I'm sure in posting a link that disagrees with the conclusion of my OP, you weren't trying to make any argument or imply anything at all. I'm sure that when women wink at you in a bar, you do nothing because 'all she did was wink at me'.

Unfortunately, the paper doesn't control for the fact that Blacks are more likely to speed The Racial Profiling Myth Debunked | City Journal | Racial Research (city-journal.org) Racial differences in speeding patterns: Exploring the differential offending hypothesis - ScienceDirect, and speeding tends to happen during the daytime (usually when people are running late for work in the morning: Why Do Drivers Speed? | The Regulatory Review (theregreview.org) ) . Speeding was normalized in this paper, but that doesn't mean it was controlled for relative to time of day, and it should have been based on the evidence of the studies above.
Even if it's true I don't see how that would much of an impact on the Figure 2 graphs in the "veil of darkness" study. The pull overs occurred during the evening after people got off work and such and it had 3 different times (presumably differing sunset hours due to change in the time of sunset over the course of the year). I would be interested in seeing the data from sunrise stops as opposed to sunset stops but I don't see that in the study.
I'm saying it's plausible that since Blacks speed more than Whites, if there is a difference in time wherein speeding is most likely done, this might explain some/all of the difference illustrated in the Texas graph. It's difficult to assess because there isn't data on the time people speed in America that specifically looks at an hour or so before and after dark. The data I found specifically said people usually speed during the morning rush to work, but doesn't comment really at all on any of the other times people speed, yet it remains plausible that people are speeding more an hour before sunset than an hour after because time of day DOES effect the amount of speeding (maybe to collect kids from school, get to the supermarket before everyone else -- we don't know).

That's why this speeding variable needed to be controlled for, or else they can't conclude that the results are indicative of racial discrimination.

A second variable that was not controlled for was the fact that Blacks tend to live in worse neighborhoods (something the left and right agree on, but happy to source if needed), and thus going out at night in 'the hood' or low SES place is usually not a great idea. So, having fewer proportionally Black people on the road after dark compared to White people due to this fact needed to be controlled for, but wasn't.
There may be data on that, but I don't know where it is.
Yeah I don't know either.

But once again, this is another variable that needed to be controlled for, or else you can't conclude that data like the Texas Figure 2 graph demonstrates 'systemic racism'.

The overall point of me bringing up these uncontrolled variables is that your paper makes the inductive leap that (1) there is racial disparity in stop rates (veil of darkness argument), and so (2) therefore racial bias exists. You seem to go further and draw the conclusion that systemic racism exists (something the paper doesn't necessarily go so far as to claim). Keep in mind that the paper does go beyond most papers in controlling for variables, but even then it's still not controlling for relevant ones because the inductive leap has such a huge burden of proof. In short, you can't use this paper to conclude that systemic racism exists because of this inductive leap in logic.


I'm sure you're aware of the implicit association test. The data indicate that about half of whites favor whites over blacks, about a quarter of whites have no preference, and about a quarter of whites favor blacks over whites. In other words, by about 2 to 1, the number of whites who favor whites over blacks outnumber the the number of whites who favor blacks over whites. The decision of a white police officer to pull someone over is a subjective one that is made quickly, and I do not think it even possible for ethnocentric feelings to be eliminated from that decision. That there would be disparities in quick and subjective decisions like these is what I would expect. When a black person is in an environment with white police officers, well that these things are going to happen is just how it is.
Firstly, this doesn't actually (potentially) provide evidence that systemic racism exists. All this data could show is that some people have racial bias. So this is already a non-starter.

Secondly, this data (specifically the black-white data) contradicts the overall data on this topic. A meta-analysis of 17 studies found that White people (n=10,435) had a net effect of no discrimination. It also found that Black people (n=2,781) had a "small to moderate" bias in favor of their own race. These sample sizes are far larger than the Pew Study's White (n=328) and Black (n=370) numbers Black and White discrimination in the United States: Evidence from an archive of survey experiment studies (sagepub.com) . 

Thirdly, you don't have to guess as to whether police officers are biased (based on your Pew Study) because we already have data on this. This study found that police officers were quicker to shoot AND more likely to incorrectly shoot White unarmed criminals than Black unarmed criminals exhibiting the same threatening behavior (here is the relevant data points, since it's paywalled: Imgur: The magic of the Internet ; Imgur: The magic of the Internet ) (sorry it's paywalled: The Reverse Racism Effect: Are Cops More Hesitant to Shoot Black Than White Suspects? | Request PDF (researchgate.net) ) If anything, this shows police are racially biased against White people more than Black people.

I do think there are myths about systemic racism in criminal justice. The myths are simply how substantial a factor is racism. That it is a factor, I do not doubt. Your position seems to be that it's no factor at all, and on the other extreme we have people saying that racism is the sole cause of the observed disparities in outcomes. I doubt either of these positions to be correct. What is more likely is that racism is a factor, and it is something we should try to mitigate, but we cannot blind ourselves to other causes for doing so permits social problems to fester.
This is an argument from incredulity as your doubting isn't sufficient reason to believe systemic racism exists to any degree. The default position should be complete indifference, and as demonstrated by all my arguments thus far (including the 5 from the OP), the correct position is to believe systemic racism is a myth.
#17
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@drlebronski
I am not keen on giving this far-right propaganda a platform here and I know that the supporters of it will happily vote on said debate, so it depends who the audience is but if enough want it I'll take a debate on a very specific sub-topic within it, or else Mesmer can just gish gallop a ton of things forcing me to have to prove systemic racism across 10 different angles and subsets within it, so to speak, which is difficult effort-wise and character limit wise and frankly reading the stuff Mesmer writes genuinely angers me, I minimise my exposure to it by not even opening most of the threads.
#18
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Wylted
I'm going to deep dive into this later, but things are brighter than you suspect.
I dunno, I've never seen such a large subsect of self-loathing people of any race or other social group at anytime in American history. Maybe gays around the AIDS stigma era in the 80's might be close for comparison.
#19
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,063
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Greyparrot
They’ll be out of the gene pool in a generation. Whites also have a huge advantage in the dating market so there has to be some truth to the idea that being white confers social status. At the same time you do see the self loathing whites way too often, anti white rhetoric is ubiquitous etc. Its all very complicated, I can’t really make sense of the racial dynamics in the US at all 
Topic's author
#20
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@Greyparrot
Here is the conclusion of a statistical study tracking Black Judge sentencing.

[saving space]

In short, white Judges are (relative) pussies when it comes to sentencing due to social stigmas and the weak moral convictions of most whites.
100% agree with this. 

I'm going to deep dive into this later, but things are brighter than you suspect.
I dunno, I've never seen such a large subsect of self-loathing people of any race or other social group at anytime in American history. Maybe gays around the AIDS stigma era in the 80's might be close for comparison.
Yeah the Whites that are racially hateful of White people certainly is a super peculiar phenomenon. They're pretty statistically significant and they certainly exist: 

We actually (probably) have several of these people on this site. RationalMadman is 100% an anti-white Liberal/Progressive who might also be a Black supremacist (not surprising given where he lives -- probably doesn't want to get necklaced). If Oromagi, DoubleR and Reece101 are also White, they are also this kind of anti-white White people.
#21
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Mesmer
I guess the new 2021 word for it would be Uncle Tims?

From Urban Dictionary:

A white person that will kiss the ass of nonwhites & say something like black people are better or that they’re ashamed of their white privilege. Also known as white Uncle Tom.

David: I’m gonna join Black Lives matter! Because I think black people are oppressed by my privilege & I'm ashamed!
Edward: You’re an Uncle Tim.

Topic's author
#22
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@Greyparrot
I guess the new 2021 word for it would be Uncle Tims?

From Urban Dictionary:

A white person that will kiss the ass of nonwhites & say something like black people are better or that they’re ashamed of their white privilege. Also known as white Uncle Tom.

David: I’m gonna join Black Lives matter! Because I think black people are oppressed by my privilege & I'm ashamed!
Edward: You’re an Uncle Tim.
You can call them that but it doesn't quite have the punch needed to effect mass political change (to do that, you need to evoke people's natural tendency to vote based on race lines, imo). Uncle Tims whilst funny and clever, is too cerebral and won't get White people fighting this racial discrimination en masse. For example, the average Red Neck doesn't necessarily understand the cleverness of 'Uncle Tims', but he/she will absolutely understand 'anti-white'.

I prefer to call them anti-white because it's true and activates the racial in-group of White people (which all races have btw). If these anti-whites push too far and are claiming things that Black people didn't do, or ignoring the crimes/faults/wrongdoing Blacks do, then you could begin to call them Black supremacists, too.
Topic's author
#23
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
Congratulations. You've made the worst post so far on this thread.
From you, that's a compliment. You are a toxic user with a blatantly racist and far-right agenda here, I don't really need to worry how you see me. You thinking ill of me, on balance, is probably a good thing considering what you think is good is consistently evil.
Firstly, this is all slanderous Ad Hominem that is logically fallacious. 

Secondly, you've dropped the argument I've levied against your post. My argument was that because you failed to actually read the OP (which was proven due to you making counter-claims already addressed in the OP), and the fact that all your claims were completely unsourced, you've made the worst post so far in this thread. Thus, it remains objectively true that your post was indeed the worst post in this thread, despite all the Ad homs that you've spewed here.

As for the proof you say I lack, it's out there and I already know each thing I post you won't address or consider, you'll just dismiss but for others reading this who are interested where to start, it's safe to ignore the entire OP that I was accused of ignoring, but waste your time reading it if you must.
Firstly, you're begging the question by arguing that because I won't address or consider what you might write, you shouldn't post it. This is begging the question because the conclusion (that I won't address or consider what you write) is imbedded in the argument. It's also hilarious that you somehow "know" I won't address or consider what you will write, despite you not actually writing it and giving me a chance to respond to it LOL.

Secondly, this is poisoning the well in that you've slanderously pre-attacked me before I made my argument -- another logical fallacy.

Thirdly, you've again begged the question in arguing that 'it's safe to ignore the entire OP' despite not having read it. Clearly, if you don't know what's in the OP, how do you know that it's safe to ignore it?

Instead, there's basically a ton of documentaries and stuff to digest the information from, far more than I am compiling here, I'm just giving you starting points.

Well you haven't posted "far more" than what you're compiling here, so you don't have those arguments. Let's look at what you actually posted here.

Firstly, this is a lazy and dreadful way of making an argument. You haven't extracted any of the arguments made in this piece. I'm going to be charitable and make your arguments for you, because you're obviously too incompetent to make them yourself.

Secondly, this article is rife with anecdotes. I assume people are smart enough to understand why the data and analysis I provided is superior to anecdotes, so I'll leave it at that.

Thirdly, the anecdote-heavy piece briefly references a poll saying that '75% of Americans say discrimination is a big problem' and that '57% understand that African Americans are more likely to suffer from police violence than other demographic groups'. As all the data I provided in the OP and addressed to dfss earlier in the thread shows, discrimination is not a problem Systemic Racism in U.S. criminal justice is a myth (debateart.com) . If people think this is the case, then they're simply wrong. As for the 57% stat, I've already shown in the OP (point 4) and in my response to dfss that police brutality does not effect Black people disproportionately. Thus, these surveys are a result of people believing wrong things, not actual systemic racism.

Fourthly, the piece briefly references Blacks having lower income households than other races. This doesn't prove that Blacks are systemically discriminated against by itself because it doesn't control for confounding variables (such as IQ, self-control etc.), and thus should be dismissed on that basis alone. Furthermore, the piece references high Black unemployment, but again that doesn't control for all the variables involved, so we can't conclude systemic racism from that.

Lastly, everything else I read was just some anecdote not backed by data. Thus, the article is junk and objectively worse than all the statistics, research and data I provided.

^ an unbiased documenting of active policy changes and rule changes that BLM and allied movements have caused the change of (so that it's less racist now than it used to be, not negating what it originally was and definitely not leaving the entire thing as a myth even today).
This whole argument begs the question in assuming that systemic racism exists, therefore it needs to be addressed. For example, the fact that Iowa might be moving towards more of a community policing approach isn't an example of systemic racism existing -- that's just a fact that Iowa is moving towards community policing. Another example is the fact that police are being retrained doesn't prove systemic racism exists -- that's just a fact that police are being retrained. NONE of what you cited here actually proves that systemic racism exists.

Also, the concept of "racist" is nonsense Racism is a nonsense, malicious term v2.0 (debateart.com) . What you should be proving to prove is there is racial bias against Black people, if you want to make the argument that you think you're making. You then need to show where racial bias exists in systems, rather than citing policy changes that beg the question.

^What's great about this is that it links to other sources and articles on the matter all of which are valid reads in their own right, making it an incredible starting point.
Firstly, you should have linked to the sources and relevant stats. Again, this is just you being useless and incompetent in forming arguments.

Secondly, it argues that because there are "racially disparate outcomes", therefore systemic racism exists. Again, just like before when the arguments you make don't control for relevant variables, this argument doesn't do that, either. For example, just because Usain Bolt comes first in a running race, that doesn't mean anyone slower than him was racially discriminated against -- this is analogous to the logic you are using.

Thirdly, I've already addressed many of the arguments it makes after that mostly in my OP, and some have already been addressed in the thread. Here is the list that you should have posted. I've quickly commented on things that have been already addressed:
So, of the arguments this article makes (not you, you didn't do anything but post a link), and after loling at the fact you accused me of gish galloping despite your article doing the same here Systemic Racism in U.S. criminal justice is a myth (debateart.com) (which isn't valid, btw, since this is a thread and you can take as long as you want to respond -- just funny that you're wrong and hypocritical), I've already addressed anything that has a comment next to it. I'll respond to the others in my next post.

Start with those three and everything they link you to, then PM me if you're genuinely interested in the subject. It's best not to engage with far-right trolls here on the matter, they will just drag you down and wind you up.
More illogical Ad Hom.

Also, I can't PM you because you blocked me, idiot xD
#24
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
It's amazing to me how all your posts get 1 like the instant that you post them, by the way Mesmer. It would be interesting if by some miracle I was wrong and you had a hardcore fan. 

Now that I said this though, you possibly will go back in time and unlike some to remove the proof xD
#25
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9

We actually (probably) have several of these people on this site. RationalMadman is 100% an anti-white Liberal/Progressive who might also be a Black supremacist
"black supremacist" is a racial slur

#26
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@drlebronski
what the fuck does Mesmer even mean, where I live and getting necklaced, that's implied doxxing and also totally ridiculous all at once as nowhere does someone get hung for not being a black supremacist.
Topic's author
#27
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
It's time to address the arguments from your third source that weren't addressed here: Systemic Racism in U.S. criminal justice is a myth (debateart.com) .

Firstly, all of the sources referenced here don't connect their claims to prove systemic racism. For example, just because Blacks are arrested more, that doesn't mean they are being systemically discriminated against (it might mean they are committing more crimes) -- NONE of these sources actually connect their arguments to prove systemic racism. It was shown in my OP with point (1) that the victimization reports pretty much match the arrest rates (hence Blacks ARE committing more crime),  which actually connects the argument to show that systemic racism ISN'T happening. 

Secondly, I actually have the relevant counter-study for the point about NYC arrest rates. Despite Blacks being arrested more, this studied showed that there was no racial discrimination involved in the arrests An Economic Analysis of Black-White Disparities in NYPD's Stop and Frisk Program (nber.org) . This completely negates this particular study.

Thirdly, some of the sources actually conclude that Whites are arrested/accosted at higher rates for various crimes, but I won't be an idiot and argue systemic racism exists against Whites based solely on that.

Again, none of these arguments connect their data to demonstrate systemic racism. All they repeatedly do is say in various ways that 'Black people receive the death penalty more' without controlling for the relevant confounding variables (i.e. verbal IQ, nature of the murder, how Blacks present in courtrooms etc.).

I'm beginning to think you don't understand the limits of inductive reasoning, hence why you're falling for this illogical mess. For example, just because a bucket is full of water, that doesn't mean someone HAD to have filled it with a hose. It could have been left outside in the rain. Someone could have dunked it in a swimming pool. Someone could have filled it at a tap.

This part starts out by arguing that plea bargaining isn't real justice -- totally irrelevant to whether systemic racism exists.

The next point is about there being not many Black prosecutors. So, they've gone (1) not many Black prosecutors, therefore (2) that has to be systemic racism -- yes, it's actually that stupid of an argument.

All the other sources don't control for confounding variables. They just say 'Black people are more likely to be denied/get worse plea bargains' and don't at all reference the crimes they commit, the type of legal defense they have, their presence in court, verbal IQ etc. It's just the same bad logic over and over, point after point. I wish I was kidding.

Same faulty reasoning. Same inductive reasoning without controlling for relevant confounding variables.

What a complete waste of time this all was.

Yeah how about you just read my OP, posts to dfss in this thread, and my previous post to you. That does a way better job at negating your ridiculous, non-connecting arguments which attempt to affirm systemic racism via faulty inductive reasoning.

You don't understand inductive reasoning and how it is limited. You don't understand why confounding variables need to be controlled for. You are too uneducated on those things to have this conversation.
#28
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Mesmer
The only undisputed proof of systemic racism in the USA is the rates of single motherhood by ethnic group, a known precursor to criminal activity and lower wealth and education rates.

But it's just too fucking hard to blame white privilege on that, so lets bury those facts.
#29
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Mesmer
Firstly, this is a lazy, garbage way of making arguments. I don't expect anything better from useless, genuine idiots like Reece101, but you've shown that you're capable of actually engaging with the papers themselves. This is quite disappointing.

Bow do you expect to persuade people by insulting them? It doesn't accomplish anything but making them clam up and doggedly stick to their beliefs more. 

I genuinely like you and want to see you become .ore persuasive.  This doesn't help. Studies show, asking for their premises and then disproving a premise, works better at changing minds. 
#30
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
-->
@Greyparrot
The only undisputed proof of systemic racism in the USA is the rates of single motherhood by ethnic group, a known precursor to criminal activity and lower wealth and education rates.
It's true, and is easily corrected with judicial corporal punishment. If you just used whips to punish people and let them out, they would have lower recidivism rates, not learn other criminal behavior and have criminal contacts they meet in prison and they would still be there for their families and we could lower the rate of single motherhood and other massive problems that result in a lack of black men in black communities. It's cyclical. They have single mothers because their dads were in prison, and single mothers create criminal blacks. We eliminate the cycle by eliminating most sentencing and using judicial corporal punishment