Atheists are no longer welcome here

Author: Wylted
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#91
Double_R
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@n8nrgmi
this forum is full of atheists all spouting the same nonsense
Imagine a trial where the witnesses on one side are all telling the same story and the witnesses on the other are all saying something completely different.

What would you infer from that?
#92
ethang5
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@Double_R
Experience tells me that witnesses never all agree. I would think the conflicting witnesses are sincere but just mistaken, and the agreeing witnesses were coached and are lying. Why do you ask?
#93
EtrnlVw
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@Double_R
Imagine a trial where the witnesses on one side are all telling the same story and the witnesses on the other are all saying something completely different.

What would you infer from that?

It depends, whether or not the witnesses on the other side have any say in what the other witnesses are claiming, or are they just claiming that what they witnessed cannot be witnessed? wouldn't that be stupid? if one party witnessed something and the other party is just there to say no, they cannot witness that? lol, that's pretty much the game here. In other words, wth do the other witnesses even represent? they witnessed nothing, the other party does. Do we go with the party who witnessed something to support one side, or the party who witnessed nothing?
This is sort of the whole point here, you atheists claim you witness nothing, so what skin do you even have in the game? why are you even at the trial to begin with?
Even if the witnesses who witnessed something,  happen to vary in what they witnessed we still want to collect the data. The other party who has no data can take a hike. They aren't part of the trial. 


#94
EtrnlVw
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@Double_R
BTW, I'm not really supporting the idea that atheists should not be allowed here. I do think it's fair that they become part of the dialogue, but there has to be some limits set. They can't offer or contribute much to spiritual topics obviously,  but they certainly should be able to test the topics by debating them rather than claiming the topics simply cannot exist. It's far more intellectual and open-minded to see if such claims have reason, evidence and logic to support them rather than just being here to shut everything down because of the preconceived idea that nothing can be true because nothing can be witnessed or that there is nothing to witness. 
That would be like me going into the sports forum or the politics forum and claiming nothing can be debated here because nobodies experience with either topic is relevant because I believe it can't be experienced, they are just figments of other people's imaginations. Keeping in mind this is just an illustration to make a point....I understand the difference between spirituality and those other topics. However, spirituality is something many people experience and wish to share or discuss. That is why the forum exists, not to mention it is one of the more popular and intriguing sections. 
#95
Double_R
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@ethang5
Why do you ask?
Theists have a tendency to suggest that atheists all saying the same thing gives strength to the theist position somehow. I’m pointing out how that is false.
#96
Double_R
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@EtrnlVw
This is sort of the whole point here, you atheists claim you witness nothing, so what skin do you even have in the game? why are you even at the trial to begin with?
We’re all witnessing the same things, theists just claim that they can explain them so atheists are saying go ahead and substantiate your explanation.

To the extent that theists claim they experience that which atheists are not, the atheists are saying what good are your experiences to me or anyone else? That’s rhetorical of course. It’s not worth anything.

So if you cannot substantiate your explanation and your experiences are worth nothing to anyone else then why do you think you get to push your beliefs into the rest of society?
#97
ethang5
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@Double_R
Theists have a tendency to suggest that atheists all saying the same thing gives strength to the theist position somehow. I’m pointing out how that is false.
Seems to me it would depend on the position in question. i.e. Every atheist quoting Hutchins or bringing up the flying spaghetti monster would tend to cast into doubt the claim that they ONLY lack a belief in God.
#98
zedvictor4
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@Polytheist-Witch
Not sure about your last comment....Perhaps requires punctuation.

Otherwise, it reads as you admitting to being a deep bully.
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#99
Wylted
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@Double_R
So if you cannot substantiate your explanation and your experiences are worth nothing to anyone else then why do you think you get to push your beliefs into the rest of society?

If somebody believes, you'll burn in hell for eternity, for not believing what they do, it would mean they are a huge piece of shit, for knowing your fate and not attempting to do something about it. 

Pushing beliefs, is precisely how a rational and ethical person would act, with that knowledge/belief. 
#100
Polytheist-Witch
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People seem to find the pagan gods without anybody intervening pretty easy. Wonder what Jesus problem is that he can't get people to come to him on his own.
#101
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@Wylted
Pushing beliefs, is precisely how a rational and ethical person would act, with that knowledge/belief. 
A rational person would also rely on evidence to make their case
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#102
Wylted
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@Double_R
A rational person would also rely on evidence to make their case
There are some great philosophical arguments for God, I should not. However you seem to only want to engage with plebs. That is beside the point though.

If a person has a personal experience. Say they witness a murder, but they have no evidence the murder happened, other than their personal experience. Should they still warn you, if the guy wants to be your room mate? Would you then say, well you should rely on evidence the guy murdered somebody, and not have warned me based merely on your personal experiences?

Either situation can lead to your death. I say it's worse that they wouldn't warn you about eternity in hell than it would be to refrain from warning you about the murderer who is going to be your room mate. 

#103
Double_R
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@Wylted
When I talked about pushing their beliefs onto others I’m talking about through legislation, not trying to convince others through conversation. So to answer your question, of course that person should warn me.

But more importantly, your example is not comparable. Like I said earlier, it's not that we're having different experiences, it's that theists are attributing a cause to their experiences that can't even be shown to exist.

BTW what's a pleb?
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#104
Wylted
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@Double_R
When I talked about pushing their beliefs onto others I’m talking about through legislation
Okay, I thought you meant in personal conversation, just bringing it up.

BTW what's a pleb?

It used to be used for a bit by carnies to refer to normal people they would get to play games, they did not know were rigged. In the way I am using it, I just mean that most people are idiots and not even worth engaging in debate with. I'd argue the existence of god in the philosophy section, where philosophy minded people can argue better arguments, both for and against the existence of a God.

I forgot that the word has fallen out of favor, and that I should refrain from using it
#105
3RU7AL
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@EtrnlVw
It is impossible and should be impossible to keep any member out of any particular thread.

Everyone is welcome to participate in the philosophy section and or any other section for that matter.

I'm just glad we have a religion section to distract the fringe.
#106
FLRW
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@Wylted
An ex-Marine who claimed God was speaking directly to him allegedly shot dead a mother, father, grandmother, and 3-month-old baby boy and seriously wounded an 11-year-old girl, a Florida sheriff said, calling it "a horror of the utmost magnitude."

You would probably call that a great philosophical argument for God.
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#107
Wylted
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@FLRW
You would probably call that a great philosophical argument for God.

No I would not. I don't pretend like personal revelation is a great argument. 

I think the guy you mentioned, probably has some serious psychological conditions. 
#108
ludofl3x
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@Wylted

I think the guy you mentioned, probably has some serious psychological conditions. 
How did you reach this conclusion? I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just curious how you know it WASN'T what he said it was. 
#109
Polytheist-Witch
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If that were typical theists behavior then there would be a lot more dead people on the planet the fact is it's a rare case and probably about mental illness. When one is in the throws of mental illness and hears voices it's  associated with something outside oneself like angels or gods for demons. The actual mentally ill can't recognize it's from an illness or wrong. The idea all theists are murders gets old.
#110
ludofl3x
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@Polytheist-Witch
The idea all theists are murders gets old.
Who has this idea?
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#111
Wylted
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@ludofl3x
How did you reach this conclusion? I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just curious how you know it WASN'T what he said it was. 
Technically we don't know. That's why solipsysm exists. We can't be sure of anything. However I think an application of ocean's razor would suggest, God was not talking to this guy
#112
ludofl3x
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@Wylted
 However I think an application of ocean's razor would suggest, God was not talking to this guy
Why would occam's razor suggest that?
#113
zedvictor4
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@ludofl3x
No!

Ocean's Razor.

Must be a different razor.


And a slightly different form of solipsism.
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#114
Wylted
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@ludofl3x
people are nuts in Florida. If something happens just contribute it to the maddening affects of the ocean. Ocean's razor, but yes occam's razor makes more sense. The creator of the universe has better shit to do than trolling people into murdering their families.
#115
Castin
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@Wylted
who we always unite against. Our own 
Are you telling me you would rather fight each other than us godless heathens? Wylted, Wylted, you're talkin' crazy. Think about what you're giving up! The contemptuous attitude, the scoffing, the pomposity -- are we not ideal adversaries? How could you replace us? Fight Mormons? They will never do for you what we do for you. You can fight other theists... but deep down, you'll be thinking about us. 
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#116
Wylted
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@Castin
it's a known fact, the best fights happen between people who are similar. Best boxing match, the thriller in manilla, was between 2 black dudes. World War 2, was a bunch of whites fighting each other. 

Joe biden is thought incompetent by the right, but leftists actually hate him.

John McCain is thought to be misguided by liberals but right wingers hate him. 

Muslims kill each other in the middle east.  
#117
3RU7AL
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@Wylted
However I think an application of ocean's razor would suggest, God was not talking to this guy
Which god exactly ?
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#118
Wylted
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@3RU7AL
Stupid question. If a God was talking to him, then asking which God is relevant. If no God was talking to him, asking me which God was not talking to him is stupid. No God was talking to him, genius

#119
ludofl3x
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@Wylted
I'm not being clear, sorry. Using Occum's razor, how did you decide this was the result of someone being mentally ill (when the bible's version of god routinely has humans do his killing for him, so there is precedent) and not divine command? 

Applying Occum's razor to this case for me would look something like:

"The perpetrator claims to have received a command from god, much like the one the bible says he issued to Abraham about Isaac, or any of the other killings god commanded humans to perform).

THeory #1: creator of the unvierse commanded this guy to murder people. Okay, so first thing is can I show that there is a creator of the universe? Well, not really, so I would have to assume there was this entitity, and THEN would have to demonstrate that said entity, again undemonstrated, is actually this specific book character. And THEN I'd have to find a way to confirm (a) this universe creating entity requires humans to do its dirty work like murders even though it'd be powerful enough to create a universe and (b) confirm its communication of these requests. Because the believers in this particular entity seem, in spite of the character's behavior in the book, completely convinced that this god would never ever command someone to go murder a baby, then, we'd have to figure out why he got it wrong, or if he was mistaken. If he's MISTAKEN about the voice, what's that tell us?

THeory #2: he has a mental imbalance. We know there are people with chemical imbalances in their brains or traumatic brain injuries, because we see them every day, they're studied and documented and often treated. We know some of those imbalances, left untreated, can lead to delusions like hearing voices that aren't there or seeing images that aren't there, and we can tell that because only the afflicted report these beliefs. Oftentimes these imbalances lead to violent behavior. 

Does theory number 2 seem applicable even if theory #1 is completely deleted from this post? That's Occum's razor: the theory that adds the least complexity is often the correct answer. But for a person who believes in god as you do, you cannot delete theory #1, so you're kind of stuck working with that theory until it's proven false, right? 
#120
3RU7AL
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@Wylted
Stupid question. If a God was talking to him, then asking which God is relevant. If no God was talking to him, asking me which God was not talking to him is stupid. No God was talking to him, genius
Thinking about this in purely logical terms, you can only eliminate the gods that never tell people to kill people.

I'm not sure which god you're thinking of, but you certainly can't eliminate ALL gods.