murder rate only higher in the usa when you look at gun murder rate = murder more likely with guns

"so explain to me this gun problem that the ownership and sales have skyrocketed hit all time highs by a large amount and yet the murder rate goes down, circle that square if you please."

the number of guns have gone up, but the number of people owning them has gone down. that's the number that is more crucial in how many people end up shooting people. 

nobody can explain why non gun homicides are within normal territory, but gun homicides are wildly out of whack. it's obvious it's more than just bad people, but a gun problem too. 

I'm not sure what's to explain, but consider this, if someone is going to kill someone else the best tool for that job is a gun, doesn't mean you couldn't do it many other ways, but it is the most effective and efficient, thought that was common knowledge.

why do you think individuals purchasing guns is going down?  and what if any effect do you think that has on the murder rate?

Here is your favorite biased site "politifact"

Here to rain on your parade Linate.

that's the best attempt at explaining it, the idea that people choose to use guns for their efficiency, but it falls short. if people in the usa were just more evil, there would be a wildly out of proportion number of non-gun murders too. 

i think the number of people owning guns has gone down because we live in a highly developed country, not as much a wild west type country. 

i think if fewer people own guns, they aren't as likely to kill someone. this is backed up by loads of science and common sense.

women are more likely to die if there's a gun around, police are more likely to be shot, there are more likley to be murders in general, police are more likely to shoot people, the non-gun murders are not out of whack but gun murders are, you aren't more likely to be mugged in the usa but are more likely to be mugged and shot. the science goes on and on. 

ive seen with my own eyes situations escalate when a gun was there that wouldn't have escalted if the gun wasn't there. people know that criminals are more likely to kill if htey have a gun, so why aren't normal people sometimes more likely? the world isn't magically split between criminals and noncriminals. 

I doubt the number of people purchasing firearms is going down.  The American population is increasing, not necessarily spreading out so there's a higher purportion of urbanization, which means it tends not to be as practical to have a gun and so the percentage is going down. The murder rate fluctuates roughly with respect to the black markets.  

I disagree, there are more evil and insane people who murder in the U.S. and I would draw your attention to the following

then when you look at their methods "do a search for (How did Dahmer kill his victims?)" and you maybe quite surprised.

teaching people, especially kids how to deescalate and how to resolve conflicts properly is key and studies have been done, I believe I posted one either here or the other thread.

We agree that:

people shouldn't murder other people

teaching how to resolve conflicts and deescalate situations so they don't become violent has multiple benefits in people not getting hurt or killed just to name a couple.

we agree on those yes?

as far as your last point about knowing something wouldn't happen isn't possible and I don't know or understand what you mean by a normal person.  You don't become a criminal until you break a law so again not understanding that last part.  It doesn't sound relevant anyway.

they track the number of new NICS checks, that's where the claim came from, but yeah who's to say since many private sales don't need that check.

well I don't know, if the number of gun purchases going up and the number of people, yet murders are going down, doesn't seem like the guns are the problem or that laws are the solution.

It's simply a non causation.

you keep saying the number of guns has gone up, but you keep ignoring that the percent of people owning them has gone down. that correlates with the declining murder rate and is more relevant. i trust a literature review from harvard researchers who explain the majority view, over a bunch of dudes on the internet who can't keep  their statistics straight. 

so you still have no explanation for why the nongun murder rate is within the normal range while the gun murder rate is wildly out of whack? you can't just point to the fact people would choose guns over no guns to murder, because if this was an evil person problem the nongun murder rate would not be within the normal range and would be wildly out of whack too. 

you need to put the serial killer numbers into perspective. like the rate of serial killers we have compared to other developed countries. plus, i googled it, and some experts on serial killers think the problem isn't as much that we have excessive serial killers, but that we have a system that is better able to capture them and that causes our numbers of killers to go up. 

also you just keep ignoring all the long line of science i keep pointing to that shows the precense of a gun correlates to murders and other problems. i might understand that one shred of science might not be conclusive, but taken as a whole is pretty overwhelming. 

what i meant by 'normal' people. it's very relevant. you keep saying that a gun doesn't give people inclinations to kill someone if it's present v if it's not. but i dont know about you but most people would say criminals are more likely to kill if there's a gun present. so why can't we just say generally everyone is sometimes more likely to kill? 'normal' people turn into criminals all the time. you can't just define yourself into being right by saying if htey use they gun they are criminals cause then you are just using artificial definitions to define yourself into being right. the world isn't magically split into criminals v normal people, it's much more fluid than that. 

Guns do not create criminals any more than knives create criminals.

That's because guns kill better than other weapons. Like men's suicide rate is higher because they use more likely methods of inducing death. Gun, hanging, jumping. Where women take pills.

Most of the militant atheists on this site are Australian. 

proof?

you'd like us to believe that a criminal says well I have this gun, may as well kill, or darn if I only had I gun I'd kill.  would love to know how you determine that.

also you don't know if all the guns in the world were magically removed that the U.S. wouldn't still have a disproportionately higher murder rate now do you.

how many times is the weapon actually recovered in a murder?  I think is very low.  Making more laws, bans, whatever won't take the already illegal guns out of criminal's hands would they?  There's really no way to stop a criminal from getting a gun so you think you have the answer to that?  would love to hear it.