As human labor becomes increasingly obsolete can we let go of the idea that failure to perform adequate labor is inexcusably lazy and immoral?
Discuss.
Human obsolescence
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Is a time and place where all is provided, safeguarded, Heaven or Hell, I wonder.
Offhand thought, sparked by topic.
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@secularmerlin
Heh, that experiment 'is what was on my mind.
Also Jordan Peterson and Viktor E. Frankl.
Peterson, as I think he says 'something or other about people needing to devote their energy to something.
Frankl, as I 'know he says something about people needing to devote their energy to something.
"I published a study devoted to a specific type of depression I had diagnosed in cases of young patients suffering from what I called unemployment neurosis. And I could show that this neurosis really originated in a twofold erroneous identification:
Being jobless was equated with being useless, and being useless was equated with having a meaningless life. Consequently, whenever I succeeded in persuading the patients to volunteer in youth organizations, adult education, public libraries and the like-
In other words, as soon as they could fill their abundant free time with some sort of unpaid but meaningful activity-
Their depression disappeared although their economic situation had not changed and their hunger was the same.
The truth is that man does not live by welfare alone."
- Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search For Meaning
@Topic
I assume, maybe incorrectly, that people gripe less about a wealthy individual being unemployed, as one might assume they have not the 'need to work.
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@Lemming
I do feel that humans are happier with goals. I do not think those goals need necessarily be tied up in traditional employment
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@secularmerlin
What is considered traditional employment varies, in different times and places.
Though I suppose, 'most of the time, and any time I've heard,
It's 'still employment towards providing physiological and safety needs.
Food, water, shelter, property, personal security.
Sure there's people who work by making sugar cakes, or video games, neither of which 'provide physiological and safety needs, to the customer.
But 'does give the worker money, by which he purchases physiological and safety needs.
Hm, no 'human society/nation, comes immediately to my mind, who 'provided for physiological and safety needs, with 'very little need for the inhabitants to work.
Though I think a billionaire or few millionaires 'could make such a city.
Where much is automated, and machines actually 'do cut the work day down.
'Still be a 'need to work society though.
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@Lemming
As autonomous machines become more common this is exactly the sort of society we are moving towards. Why would a capitalist enterprise employ humans if automation is cheaper and more reliable?
I am not describing some hypothetical here.
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@secularmerlin
@Lemming
How will everyone make a living....That is.....Acquire money to convert to goods and food.
And yet we will continue to increase a more redundant population.
The future looks quite bleak for a lot of people.
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@zedvictor4
Must it be?
I'd suppose society,
Could develop into big government and socialism, which I don't like, personally.
Could develop into medium government, where people can produce all they need in their own land and homes.
Could continue as we are, just finding new jobs, wants of individuals and society.
. . .
Population though,
I don't know how that'll play out.
I suppose I have minor worry about politics, war technology, and social changes.
Which 'might turn into something bad for me, but maybe not.
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@Lemming
A Dystopian Earth Future
What, if at all, is the purpose of everything, is the question that underlies all such considerations for me.
Does material evolution have a goal, and what will be the extent of human involvement therein.
Most humans get so wrapped up in themselves, and loose sight of the bigger picture unfolding before them.
To that end I would suggest, that already a large proportion of humanity is already redundant.
Knowledge and intellect and the application thereof is and will be key, and most are/will be sadly lacking.
The innovators will innovate.
And the rest will will bow to a device, worry about trivialities such as sexuality and skin tone, and scratch for food.
The future is perhaps somewhere else and very few will get there....And the rest will be left behind to fight it out.
Can you foresee a utopian alternative?
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@zedvictor4
There is no capital P 'Purpose, no capital G 'Goal,
To my thinking.
But we 'are, we're material animate,
Human, have love and hate,
Dreams born of nature, nurture, and the chance niche river valleys, channels, existence has cut through,
So we bob along the waters, along our courses.
Hm, incoherent. . .
Anyway,
Individuals have their goals, and will make their way towards them.
Groups will more often than less act with good, reciprocity, intelligent recognition. Maybe.
Though some groups and individuals may indeed, find certain individuals and groups, redundant.
If we have device, maybe we don't need 'such innovation, as people find what works, improve upon.
Technology and comfort, ethics, is improved compared to the past, seems to me.
Utopian, though?
. . .
Well, maybe society can find enough to eat, enough to educate, enough to not harm one another too much.
It's not utopia,
But 'might be realistic.
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@Lemming
Well, I suppose that whatever the outcome.....Ultimately, all will be "realistic".
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@zedvictor4
Well, to myself, Utopia, or Perfection, just doesn't mesh with the human condition.
It's not bad to strive for a better life than what one currently has.
But my Utopia, perhaps is not yours,
Or our forefathers, and their fathers, so on.
So, by this, I mean I think Utopia even for an individual, unachievable,
And that for 'generations, their values do not always match.
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@secularmerlin
I do feel that humans are happier with goals. I do not think those goals need necessarily be tied up in traditional employment
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@secularmerlin
Good post OP. Retweet.
If only your words would resonate with policy makers deciding that disabled people who cannot work don't deserve to have the same quality of life afforded to them as is afforded to others...
If only your words would resonate with policy makers deciding that disabled people who cannot work don't deserve to have the same quality of life afforded to them as is afforded to others...
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@secularmerlin
As human labor becomes increasingly obsolete can we let go of the idea that failure to perform adequate labor is inexcusably lazy and immoral?
FAILURE TO DISMANTLE THE ARCHITECTS OF YOUR ENSLAVEMENT IS IMMORAL
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@Lemming
Could develop into medium government, where people can produce all they need in their own land and homes.
Almost no one owns sufficient land to make this feasible
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@secularmerlin
Societies have changed in the past,
Are still experiencing change in the present,
Will change in the future.
. . .
Also, given the amount of clout you're attributing to technology and automation,
Amount of land 'needed, might shrink, given right technology, or lifestyle.
@NoOneInParticular
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@Lemming
The future will hold things no doubt that we could hardly imagine but we are not on a projected course to become magical space socialists with food synthesizers.
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@secularmerlin
....we are not on a projected course to become magical space socialists with food synthesizers.
10+ on the above Secular. How humans attain physical and mental competency in future depends on trajectory of society as a whole.
Erratic Climate Change is most likely to have most effects of humanities trajectory.
Massive local rains, globally, massive heat { dry }, fire and smoke events locally across the globe, available foods --and their costs--- due to climate, and,
Other unknown resultants of how people will respond to these events. >>>>>>> war? >>>>> barbarism? >>>> power nukes? >>>> nukes built properly? >>>>
The list of possible trajectories, as resultant of an erratic climate change is not easy to model, as we dont know what technoloiges MAY be invented to fix part or all of the oncoming rapid climate change.
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@secularmerlin
Could develop into medium government, where people can produce all they need in their own land and homes.Almost no one owns sufficient land to make this feasible
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@secularmerlin
The future will hold things no doubt that we could hardly imagine but we are not on a projected course to become magical space socialists with food synthesizers.
TNG FTW