At what point is it far enough for you right-wing nutjobs to call it racist and too far?

Author: RationalMadman
Racism
right-wing
nazis
Lunatic

Posts

Total: 199
Topic's author
#1
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
At what point can we ban a user? Literally 1 in 2 (actually that's an understatement) of Wylted's threads are racist and I just saw this in what was meant to be a funny roast thread:


At what stage is it too far?

At what stage can other members get angry and say it is punishable?


Topic's author
#2
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Lunatic
@Vader
@ILikePie5
@MisterChris
@TheUnderdog
Maybe say something
#3
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
"Racist" is a nonsense term: Racism is a nonsense, malicious term (debateart.com) . What you could logically argue is that there is racial hatred or racial bias against human racial groups, but you need to specify your grievance because "racist" is a nonsense term. 

Anyway, I can agree in saying that calling Africans gorillas/monkeys is in poor taste, and generally shouldn't be done (especially in their presence). I don't think what TheUnderdog wrote here is appropriate, given the TOS.
#4
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
I think the context matters.  If someone is serious about wanting to kill black people because they are black, then that's racist.  But pointing out the hypothetical hypocrisy in a post in a joking way while explicitly stating that it was merely the stereotype (I didn't call black people monkeys which would be racist if serious; I merely said the stereotypical black person is a monkey and that it was in a joking matter so this probably doesn't violate the CoC.  If I said the stereotypical Asian was smart, this wouldn't be racist and it wouldn't even be stereotyping if I point out that it is a stereotype.  If I said that all Asians were smart, it would be a stereotype.  Hiring someone because they are Asian on the assumption that they are smart based on nothing but their race is racist).  If I endorsed the stereotype I said, it would be racist.  If I merely point out that it is a stereotype, then it is not racist.

Moreover, I checked the CoC and it doesn't explicitly prohibit racist talking points, so even if I was being racist (which I wasn't) it wouldn't violate the CoC.

All the CoC prohibits is the following:

  • You may not post or link to media that is excessively gory or violent.
  • You may not post or link to pornography or other explicit adult sexual material.
  • You may not engage in commercial advertising anywhere on the site.
  • Spam is prohibited, and any overtly repetitive nonsensical posts are considered spam.
  • Unwarranted systemic vulgarity and invectives, which may include off topic personal attacks and/or hate speech, are subject to disciplinary actions.

    • The closest thing I did was somehow spew hate speech even though the only group I could even be accused of doing this to is to African Americans (which that's not how hate speech works.  Hate is required and pointing out a stereotype is not hate).  The definition of hate speech is:

    abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice on the basis of ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, or similar grounds.

    What I said was not abusive or threatening and it was merely pointing out a stereotype (not even endorsing the stereotype, but pointing it out).
    #5
    TheUnderdog
    TheUnderdog's avatar
    Debates: 5
    Posts: 4,340
    3
    5
    10
    TheUnderdog's avatar
    TheUnderdog
    3
    5
    10
    -->
    @Mesmer
    Anyway, I can agree in saying that calling Africans gorillas/monkeys is in poor taste, and generally shouldn't be done (especially in their presence). I don't think what TheUnderdog wrote here is appropriate, given the TOS.
    I didn't call African Americans monkeys.  I merely pointed out that that is the stereotype.
    Topic's author
    #6
    RationalMadman
    RationalMadman's avatar
    Debates: 574
    Posts: 19,931
    10
    11
    11
    RationalMadman's avatar
    RationalMadman
    10
    11
    11
    -->
    @TheUnderdog
    According to you and your neo nazi cult
    #7
    drlebronski
    drlebronski's avatar
    Debates: 14
    Posts: 993
    3
    5
    9
    drlebronski's avatar
    drlebronski
    3
    5
    9
    -->
    @TheUnderdog
    i don't think you are racist at all i think that was a poor joke. but normalizing these jokes can get people sucked down into the alt right nazi territory (that's how i became racist but i managed to get out of it) for example nazis on 4chan make "jokes" about jewish people.
    #8
    TheUnderdog
    TheUnderdog's avatar
    Debates: 5
    Posts: 4,340
    3
    5
    10
    TheUnderdog's avatar
    TheUnderdog
    3
    5
    10
    @RM

    I fail to see how I'm a neo nazi over pointing out a stereotype and I think the mods might be sick of you reporting everything.
    #9
    TheUnderdog
    TheUnderdog's avatar
    Debates: 5
    Posts: 4,340
    3
    5
    10
    TheUnderdog's avatar
    TheUnderdog
    3
    5
    10
    -->
    @drlebronski
    I don't think normalizing jokes get people "sucked down into the alt right nazi territory".  I think people who are nazis believed their ideology before they made the jewish jokes.  Millions of people make jokes at the expense of races, religions or whatever.  The vast majority of these people have no intention of doing anything victim producing to blacks or to jews.  I was also merely pointing out a stereotype instead of endorsing the stereotype.  If I endorsed the stereotype, then it would be stereotyping but not racist. 

    If I said girls were slow at track, it would be a stereotype but not sexist.  If I said the stereotypical girl was slow at track, that would be merely pointing out a stereotype. 

    If I said that blacks were like monkeys, it would be a stereotype but not racist.  

    What I said was the stereotypical black person is like a monkey.  I pointed out a stereotype, but I never endorsed the stereotype and I don't plan on doing that.
    #10
    coal
    coal's avatar
    Debates: 6
    Posts: 1,950
    3
    3
    9
    coal's avatar
    coal
    3
    3
    9
    -->
    @RationalMadman
    I just don't care. 

    If he posted something like "The crackers and kikes are conspiring to infect black folks with aborted fetuses!"  (something I have known of a black nationalist saying), I wouldn't call for him to be banned.

    I'd just ignore him.

    He is obviously being intentionally provocative, and it looks like you took the bait.
    #11
    ILikePie5
    ILikePie5's avatar
    Debates: 3
    Posts: 15,114
    3
    7
    10
    ILikePie5's avatar
    ILikePie5
    3
    7
    10
    -->
    @RationalMadman
    I don’t see a reason to ban him lol. It was clearly a joke and Bron isn’t even offended. I have a lot of black friends that allow me to call em the N word. Hell they call themselves the N word lol
    Topic's author
    #12
    RationalMadman
    RationalMadman's avatar
    Debates: 574
    Posts: 19,931
    10
    11
    11
    RationalMadman's avatar
    RationalMadman
    10
    11
    11
    -->
    @ILikePie5
    Ask them to see this thread
    #13
    Mesmer
    Mesmer's avatar
    Debates: 0
    Posts: 516
    3
    2
    4
    Mesmer's avatar
    Mesmer
    3
    2
    4
    -->
    @TheUnderdog
    I don't think hinting that Africans look like monkeys is going to please anyone. While I'm personally not against crass jokes like this, this is a debate website wherein ideas and arguments should be addressed. If we start implying that people look like monkeys, the rationality will quickly dissolve.

    I don't think it's "hate speech", "racist" or that you're a "Nazi" (they're all nonsensical terms designed to slander, rather than argue anything of substance, btw). RationalMadman is far too sensitive, so just ignore him if he starts crying about everyone being Nazis or whatever nonsense extremist left-wing term he likes to use.

    It's just an off-color joke that probably shouldn't be said, especially if Drlebronski is black. However, you didn't say it in the worst place, given that the thread was about roasting people, so it's even less bad because of that. I don't think it's anything more than that. I don't think you need to be perma-banned, or that the website is overrun by "ring-wing nutjobs" making far too "racist" claims. I don't think we needed a thread dedicated to witch-hunting you. I personally don't think it's appropriate comment to make, but I don't care that much that it exists. 
    Topic's author
    #14
    RationalMadman
    RationalMadman's avatar
    Debates: 574
    Posts: 19,931
    10
    11
    11
    RationalMadman's avatar
    RationalMadman
    10
    11
    11
    God, even such a directly racist and unforgivable statement isn't condemned by them, shows the fucking level of degeneracy here.

    If they can call black people monkeys and apes and get away with it, I surely can call them the degenerates that they are.
    #15
    Vader
    Vader's avatar
    Debates: 30
    Posts: 14,984
    5
    8
    11
    Vader's avatar
    Vader
    5
    8
    11
    The moderation will review the statement made and determine whether or not action will be taken.


    #16
    Mesmer
    Mesmer's avatar
    Debates: 0
    Posts: 516
    3
    2
    4
    Mesmer's avatar
    Mesmer
    3
    2
    4
    God, even such a directly racist and unforgivable statement isn't condemned by them, shows the fucking level of degeneracy here.
    This is why the general public doesn't take SJW's seriously. You take a comment that was designed to be a joke, in a joke thread, that the person whom it was directed at didn't get offended, and suddenly we have to all be compelled to condemn this person to purgatory. 

    Yeah, it's an off-color joke. Yeah, I personally wouldn't say it. But when you're so damn sensitive over an off-color joke, when you're so ready to un-person someone the moment they aren't perfect in your eyes, you become the extremist nutjob you think you're fighting.

    #17
    Mesmer
    Mesmer's avatar
    Debates: 0
    Posts: 516
    3
    2
    4
    Mesmer's avatar
    Mesmer
    3
    2
    4
    -->
    @Vader
    If you're going to ban someone on the grounds of making a "racist" comment, you should be banning people like Oromagi who make racist slurs against white people by calling them "White supremacists" IQ is a Valid Metric (debateart.com) .

    After all, "White supremacist" is such a directly racist and unforgivable statement :)
    #18
    zedvictor4
    zedvictor4's avatar
    Debates: 22
    Posts: 12,060
    3
    3
    6
    zedvictor4's avatar
    zedvictor4
    3
    3
    6
    -->
    @Vader
    Does this site actually have any darker skinned members?

    Or is it  really  just a site for opinionated, young, light skinned, male Americans.


    #19
    Fruit_Inspector
    Fruit_Inspector's avatar
    Debates: 20
    Posts: 855
    3
    4
    7
    Fruit_Inspector's avatar
    Fruit_Inspector
    3
    4
    7
    -->
    @RationalMadman
    Do you also condemn Critical Race Theory for it's inevitable conclusion that black Americans are inferior to white Americans?
    Topic's author
    #20
    RationalMadman
    RationalMadman's avatar
    Debates: 574
    Posts: 19,931
    10
    11
    11
    RationalMadman's avatar
    RationalMadman
    10
    11
    11
    Thunderdog has consistently made racist jokes even in OPs of his threads about the kkk and such newer hate groups being compared to blm. He has even compared the 'suffering' of neo nazis unable to spread their hatred to that of lgbt and blacks having hate crimes done against them.

    This is much bigger than one event.
    Topic's author
    #21
    RationalMadman
    RationalMadman's avatar
    Debates: 574
    Posts: 19,931
    10
    11
    11
    RationalMadman's avatar
    RationalMadman
    10
    11
    11
    -->
    @Fruit_Inspector
    Not taking the bait. Blocked.

    We both know what it actually says a d what it actually says is somewhat true actually. Institutions and those in positions of power are the most to blame for societal racism when it becomes done via law enforcement and the cause for affirmative action (affirmative action doesn't just oppose racist hiring processes and student selection, it also accepts the disadvantages some faced and holds their achievements relative to that).
    #22
    ILikePie5
    ILikePie5's avatar
    Debates: 3
    Posts: 15,114
    3
    7
    10
    ILikePie5's avatar
    ILikePie5
    3
    7
    10
    -->
    @Mesmer
    I don't think it's "hate speech", "racist" or that you're a "Nazi" (they're all nonsensical terms designed to slander, rather than argue anything of substance, btw). RationalMadman is far too sensitive, so just ignore him if he starts crying about everyone being Nazis or whatever nonsense extremist left-wing term he likes to use.
    This ain’t our first rodeo lmao
    #23
    Fruit_Inspector
    Fruit_Inspector's avatar
    Debates: 20
    Posts: 855
    3
    4
    7
    Fruit_Inspector's avatar
    Fruit_Inspector
    3
    4
    7
    @RM
    Not taking the bait. Blocked.
    It wasn't bait, it was an honest question. Don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you can't even talk about these issues without blocking people.

    I asked because everyone I have interacted with so far who believes systemic racism is real think that black people have inferior reading, math, and critical thinking skills compared to white people, and these inferiorities inevitably cause them to be less successful in life. That seems like a low view of black people.
    #24
    Vader
    Vader's avatar
    Debates: 30
    Posts: 14,984
    5
    8
    11
    Vader's avatar
    Vader
    5
    8
    11
    -->
    @zedvictor4
    Yes there are a few 
    #25
    MisterChris
    MisterChris's avatar
    Debates: 45
    Posts: 2,897
    5
    10
    11
    MisterChris's avatar
    MisterChris
    5
    10
    11
    The post in question has been addressed here: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6531/post-links/283345

    The mod team has agreed on this course of action.
    #26
    Wylted
    Wylted's avatar
    Debates: 34
    Posts: 5,754
    3
    4
    11
    Wylted's avatar
    Wylted
    3
    4
    11
    You fight racism by proving racist ideology is wrong. For example if I say that blacks are 13% if the population but commit 50% of the violent crime i. The United States, than the correct response is not to run these arguments into hiding, so they are whispered about and go unopposed, making them stronger.

    The correct response is to address them. For example in the above statement if stated by a racist, and not just somebody with an uncomfortable question, you can perhaps point out the history of racism in the United States, which has shock waves that we see the impact of until today.

    Maybe you could point out that poverty is a huge contributor to crime and more predictive of criminal behavior than race (if true). 

    These are rebuttals that won't be seen though, if somebody is only being racist in PMs, because we have banned people from talking about controversial subjects, or have banned people for expressing the wrong opinion. 


    Topic's author
    #27
    RationalMadman
    RationalMadman's avatar
    Debates: 574
    Posts: 19,931
    10
    11
    11
    RationalMadman's avatar
    RationalMadman
    10
    11
    11
    -->
    @ILikePie5
    I have a lot of black friends that allow me to call em the N word. 
    I think it is very important here to mention that you are of Indian ethnicity and thus South Asian racial makeup. You are not Caucasian. 

    I just wanted that clarified before your example gets misunderstood.
    #28
    Wylted
    Wylted's avatar
    Debates: 34
    Posts: 5,754
    3
    4
    11
    Wylted's avatar
    Wylted
    3
    4
    11
    I'd honestly like to stop making racist threads, but I am afraid the second I do, the mod team will go back to banning people for having "wrong think", and me posting these controversial things act as a kind of shield, so people can feel more comfortable expressing their true views. I miss when we used to have members who were pro beastiality or torture like on DDO
    #29
    ILikePie5
    ILikePie5's avatar
    Debates: 3
    Posts: 15,114
    3
    7
    10
    ILikePie5's avatar
    ILikePie5
    3
    7
    10
    -->
    @RationalMadman
    I think it is very important here to mention that you are of Indian ethnicity and thus South Asian racial makeup. You are not Caucasian. 

    I just wanted that clarified before your example gets misunderstood.
    What difference does it make? I could be white and they still wouldn’t care. 

    Only people who want to be offended get offended
    #30
    Vader
    Vader's avatar
    Debates: 30
    Posts: 14,984
    5
    8
    11
    Vader's avatar
    Vader
    5
    8
    11
    -->
    @Wylted
    the mod team will go back to banning people for having "wrong think", and me posting these controversial things act as a kind of shield, so people can feel more comfortable expressing their true views
    Our administration hasn't banned anyone yet for those types of things. If you are talking about the previous one, then I have no comment to it