Plato's Parable of the MMORPG

Author: 3RU7AL 6 years ago

Posts

Total: 24

Topic's author

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

11.06.2018 07:02PM

Plato's Parable of the MMORPG,

Once upon a time there were a number of people who lived in complete darkness and the only thing they could see was their computer screens.

What they saw on their screens was their reality.

The only other people they knew were people in-game with magnificent costumes and weapons.

Sure they had to fumble in the darkness in order to microwave a quick meal, or find their bed when they were exhausted, but those were merely incidental inconveniences.

Only the game was real. Only the game was shared experience. Only in-game places and people and items were quantifiable, able to be observed and verified and shared with other players (quanta).

Sometimes an individual would try to explain what kind of food they ate or describe their room (private/personal/unshared knowledge, gnosis) but since none of this information was directly relevant in-game and was fundamentally unverifiable, it was dismissed out-of-hand as unintelligible nonsense. In fact, even the language they had developed had evolved exclusively for in-game interactions, so there really weren't any proper words for "food" or "room" that were not specifically in-game references, and even more than that, since there was no taste, touch, or smell in-game, there were also no words to properly describe those sensations as well.

EtrnlVw

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,869

EtrnlVw

11.08.2018 09:14AM

-->

@3RU7AL

Interesting...welcome to the Creators (Gods) world, all except for one problem/scenario.....the Creator has an access point from the looker (the one observing the computer) to the lookee (one playing the game within the computer) through their channel of awareness. Kind of like a conductor if you will, where the current of awareness has access to all channels of electricity and form much like energy. In this scenario, the problem or illustration you listed no longer exists, the looker has access to all the lookee experiences. Imagine or propose for a moment that both the looker (observer of the computer) and the computer (characters within a game) were in fact a reality, only the very nature of the "looker" enabled it to experience what the people within the game experiences. Imagine the lookers nature more like energy or electricity without any embodiment rather just awareness, able to have access to that flow of electricity and infiltrate any experience within that computer.

In this way, there really is no distinction from the looker to the lookee other than the form the lookee takes on within the game. However, the observation or the awareness observing the experience is one and the same in both the looker and lookee, there is no difference as all observation has no isolated occurrence from the One observing everything within that computer and actually it was the looker that imagined and created the players within that computer to begin with. After all....no computer created itself or created games itself, rather the ideas were "uploaded" from an observer or looker. Whether the looker is simply watching or actually a part of the game it matters not, the experience is being observed either way. That is why the computer exists.

In your scenario.....why does a computer exist in the first place? who is the one looking at it? where did a computer come from and who is the one observing it?

The problem in your scenario is this....."Only the game was real. Only the game was shared experience. Only in-game places and people and items were quantifiable, able to be observed and verified"

From an observation standpoint, this is untrue. What the looker experiences is as real as anything within the game, possibly more so because the players within the game are the ones being observed, not the other way around...so what is more real? the ones that have no idea they are being observed or the one that lives in isolation observing everything? which observation is more real or quantifiable?

ethang5

Debates: 1

Posts: 5,875

ethang5

11.08.2018 09:31AM

I dont think you know Plato's intent with this scenario.

Topic's author

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

11.08.2018 02:18PM

-->

@ethang5

Please explain Plato's intent.

Topic's author

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

11.08.2018 02:22PM

-->

@EtrnlVw

I'm having some trouble deciphering your terminology.

Are you comparing the programmers of the game and the manufacturers of the computer terminals and network to the gods?

EtrnlVw

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,869

EtrnlVw

11.08.2018 04:09PM

-->

@3RU7AL

For fun, yes I was. Or better put, comparing it to how creation would operate under those circumstances to how it actually is. The 'looker" in this case would be the Creator , the one observing the "computer" and the forms within the computer.

236 days later

Topic's author

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

07.03.2019 01:50PM

-->

@ethang5

I dont think you know Plato's intent with this scenario.

Please explain your interpretation of Plato's parable.

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

Mopac

07.03.2019 02:47PM

-->

@3RU7AL

This scenario seems to describe the lives of people living today who are a reality check away from being homeless.

449 days later

Lemming

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,354

Lemming

09.25.2020 12:42PM

-->

@3RU7AL

I don't think it's that gamers of MMORPGS are unaware that there are parts of life, other than a video game. It's just the part they prefer to focus on.

I suppose there's something to be said for people who enjoy trying new experiences, checking out other aspects of life, but the grass is green enough on the sides of some people's fences.

Fun use of Plato's Cave though.

Topic's author

#10

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

09.25.2020 01:26PM

-->

@Lemming

I don't think it's that gamers of MMORPGS are unaware that there are parts of life,

It's a metaphor for your experience of living and communicating.

What goes on "inside your own head" is PRIVATE GNOSIS.

What you see and do and say to OTHER PEOPLE is "IN GAME".

#11

Lemming

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,354

Lemming

09.25.2020 01:46PM

-->

@3RU7AL

I don't think it's that gamers of MMORPGS are unaware that there are parts of life,
It's a metaphor for your experience of living and communicating.

What goes on "inside your own head" is PRIVATE GNOSIS.

What you see and do and say to OTHER PEOPLE is "IN GAME".

Gnosis, I forget what that word is, reminds me wither of religion or rocks.

One Google later "Gnosis is the common Greek noun for knowledge."

Ah, I see.

Well, I suppose people 'do have their own thoughts/perceptions/experiences, that can be difficult to share and express to other people.

I suppose a person can view an individual as stuck inside their own head, only able to interact with others in a . . . roundabout, or indirect way.

. . .

Man 'does only experience, only 'know part of reality I suppose, by dint of his limitations as a human, limitations of current history and technology.

Still, he's not unaware that more exists I think.

. .

The Cave allegory of Plato, I tended to accept at face value, as I recall.

Some bit of meaning about truth/knowledge,

How man's often trapped to certain fixed points of view, get good at seeing those fixed points of view, using them in life, and explaining life 'by them.

But how empty they might seem to a person who sees more, beyond the cave, how terrible it is to be chained again, how worthless that cave world is now to him, in light of his new experiences outside the cave.

How anathematical that man's views might be, to those used to seeing the world in the dark.

Eh, I'm rambling a bit, I only somewhat remember the Cave allegory.

Topic's author

#12

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

09.25.2020 04:36PM

-->

@Lemming

But how empty they might seem to a person who sees more, beyond the cave, how terrible it is to be chained again, how worthless that cave world is now to him, in light of his new experiences outside the cave.
How anathematical that man's views might be, to those used to seeing the world in the dark.

You seem quite astute.

"The Cave" and "The Shadows" are "The Game" (what we see through our eyes and hear through our ears).

"The World Outside The Cave" is "The Apartment" (what you "see" when you turn off your game, also known as GNOSIS).

#13

Lemming

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,354

Lemming

09.25.2020 05:15PM

-->

@3RU7AL

"The World Outside The Cave" is "The Apartment" (what you "see" when you turn off your game, also known as GNOSIS).

Why is the world outside of the game, knowledge?

It seems to me that knowledge is simply what we have data on,

I suppose I'm a bit Empiricist at times, though I see the value of Rationalism.

Rationalism at times sounds a bit like theory-ism to me.

The knowledge of the game seems to me as objectively valid, as the knowledge of the apartment, or outside the cave.

I'm not sure that Cypher is wrong, in the Matrix.

Even if something is a simulation, or a shadow of some other part of reality, it doesn't disown the fact that the shadow is part of reality.

It's simply. . . Well, it's 'maybe context that bothers people.

The idea of being 'chained in the cave, ignorant, in lesser living conditions, 'fooled into thinking it 'all there is to reality.

Topic's author

#14

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

09.25.2020 07:02PM

-->

@Lemming

Why is the world outside of the game, knowledge?

I'm drawing a distinction between REAL-TRUE-FACTS (AND) INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM OPINION.

IN-GAME = REAL-TRUE-FACTS (QUANTA) must be empirically verifiable and or LOGICALLY NECESSARY (and emotionally meaningless).

IN-APARTMENT = Experiential (QUALIA) must be private, personal, unfalsifiable, GNOSIS, functionally indistinguishable from a dream and or OPINION (and emotionally meaningful).

GNOSIS in this context is related to the term GNOSTIC (direct, non-external, non-sensory experience).

#15

Lemming

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,354

Lemming

09.25.2020 07:23PM

-->

@3RU7AL

Interesting.

216 days later

Topic's author

#16

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

04.30.2021 11:39AM

-->

@Lemming

thank you for your attention

#17

ebuc

Debates: 0

Posts: 4,920

ebuc

04.30.2021 03:03PM

-->

@3RU7AL

IN-GAME = REAL-TRUE-FACTS (QUANTA) must be empirically verifiable and or LOGICALLY NECESSARY (and emotionally meaningless).
IN-APARTMENT = Experiential (QUALIA) must be private, personal, unfalsifiable, GNOSIS, functionally indistinguishable from a dream and or OPINION (and emotionally meaningful).

1} the game 'observer and/or player' is not actually in-the-game, they are experiencing { quanta } observering-playing game and this is a semi-shared knowledge, based on their experience { quanta } ergo known to all observers-players,

2} the game itself is more likey than not ---practically speaking--- to contain context of the peoples

experiences of micro-wave, bowel movements, ergo arms and legs, communications i.e.the game will have context that all players can relate too in their experineced lives, outside of gamingco

3} there may not exist communication with others o of such experiences, other than the context of the game itself.

So 3ru, in the end, you may create a scenario, that for all practical purposes does not an could never exist in Universe ergo moot. I seem to recall a question to Einstein some question about going the speed-of-radiaition and his comment mooted the whole question, because he stated we cant go the speed-of-radiation.

I think you have provided better ways to make clear the differrence between quanta { object } and qualia { viewpoint }.

Topic's author

#18

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

04.30.2021 05:28PM

-->

@ebuc

imagine your body is a robot.

imagine your robot-body is remote controlled by a brain in a vat.

your "reality" is the robot-body and robot-body interactions with other robot-bodies remotely controlled by other brains in other vats.

what's it like to be a brain in a vat?

well,

it's difficult to describe.

#19

RationalMadman

Debates: 574

Posts: 19,931

RationalMadman

04.30.2021 10:51PM

-->

@3RU7AL

Does the robot body have hormones?

#20

ebuc

Debates: 0

Posts: 4,920

ebuc

05.01.2021 02:21AM

-->

@3RU7AL

Incoming { objective quanta } processed by brain as image.

Image-a-nation { viewpoint qualia } some mill-seconds, seconds, minutes, hours days ---ergo a menory recalling-- after the incoming photons, becomes a viewpoint, and may be one, of many viewpoints that occurred from differrent angles, depths, filters, distortions etc all as the factors for each angle-of-viewpoint may vary for each observer may be vary widely.

Topic's author

#21

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

05.01.2021 08:35PM

-->

@RationalMadman

Yes.

They're called, "system status feedback and monitoring loops".

Topic's author

#22

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

05.01.2021 08:37PM

-->

@ebuc

Yeah.

But what's it like to be a brain in a vat.

When the body is no longer transmitting telemetry.

#23

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 12,078

zedvictor4

05.01.2021 09:42PM

The brain is always

In a vat

Under a hat

And the body is

A vehicle

Without a wheel

And the brain

Cares not

For a robot

As telemetry becomes

Obsolete

Without feet

And all the rest

Like a chest

In a vest

And gnosis becomes

It self

Topic's author

#24

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 14,582

3RU7AL

05.02.2021 03:16PM

-->

@zedvictor4

well stated.