Abortion and covid

Author: TheUnderdog

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Fruit_Inspector
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@3RU7AL
Obviously, "god" is impotent and or refuses to fix any of the problems they created, so, either way, it's appears to be up to you and me.
Apparently, justice for the spilled blood of innocent babies is not on your list of problems to fix.
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@Fruit_Inspector
CAN YOU FOR ONE SECOND FOCUS ON HELPING PEOPLE INSTEAD OF YOUR SEEMING OBSESSION WITH PUNISHING PEOPLE ?
CAN YOU FOR ONE SECOND FOCUS ON SAVING INNOCENT CHILDRENS' LIVES INSTEAD OF PUSHING FOR SOCIALISM?
Throwing people in prison at the cost of $40,000.00 per person per year is SOCIALISM.

I would love to not only SAVE the lives of as many humans as possible, but also insure they have some baseline standard of living.

And I'm not sure why you seem to ONLY care about humans BEFORE they are born and DGAF about the rest of them.
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
Obviously, "god" is impotent and or refuses to fix any of the problems they created, so, either way, it's appears to be up to you and me.
Apparently, justice for the spilled blood of innocent babies is not on your list of problems to fix.
Making abortion illegal will not save lives.

You have to look at this from the perspective of a young person who finds themselves in this type of predicament.

How can we make it seem realistic for a young single mother, afraid of being disowned, to be able to live and thrive ?

If having a child appears to be more advantageous than ending the pregnancy prematurely, then the "abortion problem" will solve itself.
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@3RU7AL
Let's call it a puppy.  A cute little puppy dog.

Yeah, screw that cute little puppy dog.
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@3RU7AL
I would love to not only SAVE the lives of as many humans as possible, but also insure they have some baseline standard of living.
Then how about this:

  • We criminalize abortion to prevent the 2nd leading cause of death in America.
  • We encourage people to provide for themselves instead of living off of taxpayer-funded welfare.
  • We encourage localized charities RATHER THAN expanding welfare programs. These are more efficient at meeting needs with less money wasted on individuals who don't need it caused by universal programs.
  • We can keep some welfare programs for those who fall through the cracks of the above measures.
It seems everyone wins in this scenario, right?
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
  • We criminalize abortion to prevent the 2nd leading cause of death in America.
Criminalization will not solve the problem AND it will increase TOTAL COST TO TAXPAYERS ($40,000.00 per year per person + court fees + enforcement expenses + stripping personal privacy protections of all citizens).
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
  • We encourage people to provide for themselves instead of living off of taxpayer-funded welfare.
The number one job for men in the usa is "driver".

The number one job for women in the usa is "retail clerk".

Drivers are being replaced by self-driving-vehicles and automated drone delivery services.

Retail clerks are being replaced by amazon.com who is also in the process of replacing their warehouse workers with robots.

GPT3 is making computer programming obsolete.

Where do you think these "private charities" are going to get all their donations ?
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@Greyparrot
states that despite the vaccine being here for months, the majority of conservatives aren't fully vaccinated
Your source also conveniently leaves out that the most of the minorities in Democrat urban dystopias also haven't been vaccinated. Wonder why that is?
"racism"
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@SkepticalOne
*edit* ...and just for the record Parrot boy blocked me for pointing out his ignorance. That's seriously hysterical! 
100% THIS.
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@3RU7AL
Criminalization will not solve the problem
It will not solve the problem of people wanting sex without the responsibility of parenthood. It will solve the problem of people being able to legally poison or dismember their children.


Where do you think these "private charities" are going to get all their donations ?
If that level of income loss happens, where will the government get enough tax dollars to fully support everyone through welfare programs? The government has to take money from someone before they can give money to someone else.
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If you've never been born you can't die.
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@Polytheist-Witch
All living tissue must cease living at some point.......Internally or externally.

Your argument is silly.
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
Criminalization will not solve the problem
It will not solve the problem of people wanting sex without the responsibility of parenthood. It will solve the problem of people being able to legally poison or dismember their children.
Are you trying to help people or punish them ?

In countries where abortion is illegal, women are much more likely to suffer permanent injury and or death from improvised infanticide.

If you really want to HELP WOMEN and BABIES, let's do that.

The (mostly religious) crisis-pregnancy-centers are a step in the right direction.

The main "problem" is that after the child is born, women are kicked out of the "we want to help you" circle.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Where do you think these "private charities" are going to get all their donations ?
If that level of income loss happens, where will the government get enough tax dollars to fully support everyone through welfare programs? The government has to take money from someone before they can give money to someone else.
The government does not NEED your tax money.

Consider FDR's New-Deal.

Most people at the time had no income to tax in the first place.

The reason income is taxed at all is to pay the private banking cartel their yearly 6% dividend and to keep inflation from spiraling out of control.

If you work for a private resort, you'll be sitting pretty.

If you don't happen to work for a private resort, everything around you will start to look like Brightmoor.
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@TheUnderdog
I fail to see how I'm strawmaning.  So many GOP commentators have advocated against vaccines which is why a majority of republicans aren't vaccinated.  I don't agree with vaccine mandates for any age group, but you'd figure if you want childbirth to be mandatory you'd also push for vaccienes to be mandatory and if you were pro choice, you wouldn't care if others get the vacciene.
MY BODY MY CHOICE
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@3RU7AL
Are you trying to help people or punish them ?
Is criminalizing and punishing murder a way to help people or not?


In countries where abortion is illegal, women are much more likely to suffer permanent injury and or death from improvised infanticide.
In countries where [murdering children] is illegal, women are much more likely to suffer permanent injury and or death from [murdering their children].


The (mostly religious) crisis-pregnancy-centers are a step in the right direction.

The main "problem" is that after the child is born, women are kicked out of the "we want to help you" circle.
Don't forget adoption agencies, homeless shelters, food banks, and other private donations meant to help people in all walks of life. Do you believe pro-lifers are completely uninvolved in these other charitable activities?
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
Are you trying to help people or punish them ?
Is criminalizing and punishing murder a way to help people or not?
The moral theory of incarcerating murderers presumes the individual is a "danger to society at large" AND incarceration will make them "less dangerous".

In most cases, BOTH of these are provably false.
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
The (mostly religious) crisis-pregnancy-centers are a step in the right direction.

The main "problem" is that after the child is born, women are kicked out of the "we want to help you" circle.
Don't forget adoption agencies, homeless shelters, food banks, and other private donations meant to help people in all walks of life. Do you believe pro-lifers are completely uninvolved in these other charitable activities?
There is a great deal MORE assistance available to pregnant women than there is for not-pregnant women.
Fruit_Inspector
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@3RU7AL
The government does not NEED your tax money.
Yes. Yes they do. As long as governments spend money, they will require tax dollars.


The moral theory of incarcerating murderers presumes the individual is a "danger to society at large" AND incarceration will make them "less dangerous".
I never argued for incarceration. But if you think you can eliminate crime through social welfare programs without a criminal justice system, you are a Marxist.

But you didn't answer the question: Is criminalizing and punishing murder a way to help people or not?
Fruit_Inspector
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@3RU7AL
There is a great deal MORE assistance available to pregnant women than there is for not-pregnant women.
Citation please.
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@Fruit_Inspector
If God is real, then sin is the problem, not God.
Is sin more powerful than God?

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@Double_R
Is sin more powerful than God?
No.
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@Fruit_Inspector
It will not solve the problem of people wanting sex without the responsibility of parenthood.
It’s only a problem because you made it one. Why do you insist that the two must go hand in hand?

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@Fruit_Inspector
Is sin more powerful than God?
No.
Then God is ultimately responsible.

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@Double_R
It’s only a problem because you made it one. Why do you insist that the two must go hand in hand?
Do I need to explain how babies are made?

Then God is ultimately responsible.
Really? Well that's news to me.
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
The government does not NEED your tax money.
Yes. Yes they do. As long as governments spend money, they will require tax dollars.
Imagine for a moment,

You are given an official title, something like "president of economic accountability" or something.

And your only job is to keep a money printing machine in your home and print and spend as much as you think is prudent.

These are not counterfeit bills.

Would you continue to get up and go to work every day ?

Would you go around to your neighbors and beg them (or alternatively coerce them) for money ?
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
There is a great deal MORE assistance available to pregnant women than there is for not-pregnant women.
Citation please.
HOUSING OPTIONS IF YOU’RE HOMELESS AND PREGNANT

If you’re pregnant, you’re considered a priority need for housing. If you are currently homeless or are facing homelessness within the next eight weeks – including if you have received a valid 21 notice from your landlord – you should make an application to your local council. Charitable organisations will be able to help you with this. You may need to include evidence of your pregnancy in your application. Your midwife, GP or other healthcare professional can provide this.
The council will then carry out an assessment of your housing needs. This will include understanding why you are facing homelessness, what housing is suitable for you and any support you may require. This information will be used to draw up a personal housing plan. If you are under 18 years of age, the council will also refer you for a social services assessment.

You will be provided with emergency housing while the council assess your application. This could include a hostel or B&B if no other accommodation is available. Temporary accommodation may not necessarily be within your borough. However, it’s important to remember that if you turn this down, the council may not provide further help. You may also qualify for longer-term council housing, depending on your circumstances. [**]

Also, there is special medical coverage provided by medicaid that only applies to you while you are pregnant.
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
The moral theory of incarcerating murderers presumes the individual is a "danger to society at large" AND incarceration will make them "less dangerous".
I never argued for incarceration.
What are you proposing as "punishment" ??

A punch in the face ?

Hard labor ?

Mutilation ?
Athias
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@Fruit_Inspector
So they're made up.
Of course.

Even corrupt people can make right judgements. Most societies understand rape and murder are wrong and will condemn them as such. Both citizens and civil authorities have societal responsibilities before God, and they will answer to Him for how they fulfill those.
But that's not the point. In Romans 13, rulers are to be extensions of God. Execution is described as a divine prerogative. Whether it's the "right judgement" is irrelevant.

Parents have a responsibility to raise their children (Deuteronomy 6:7)
That is not what the verse delineates. The verse delineates that parents teach the commandments to their children.

just as children have a responsibility to be obedient to their parents (Exodus 20:12).
That is not what the fourth commandments states. The commandment explicitly states that children should "honor" their parents; not necessarily "obey." In 1 Timothy Chapter Five Verse Three, it states, "Honour widows that are widows indeed." Surely this is not describing obedience.

Individuals must care for their household, which includes parents caring for their childrens' needs (1 Timothy 5:8).
This is in specific reference to fathers who abandon their wives and children.

"I wouldn't suggest you throw your baby in the ditch, but it's totally fine if you do."

While this is an uncharitable summary, I don't think it is inaccurate.
It is not only uncharitable but also inaccurate. First I wouldn't be "fine" with it; Second, throwing one's baby into a ditch would be harming the baby. And I neither endorse nor promote the harming of babies.

But the fundamental issue seems to involve the first question: where do human rights come from? If the answer is reason, you just have to find a logical pathway to justify killing babies. Treating the parent/child relationship like a contract that can be negated is one way to do this.
Once again we've revisited this notion of "killing babies." I do not deny that there are methods of abortion which harm, maim, and destroy the zygote/embryo/fetus--and again, I condemn these methods. But expulsion is not the same as killing because the zygote/embryo/fetus dies as a consequence of its own incapacity. Furthermore, if we're going to characterize any dynamic between mother and child as "contractual" then both parties must be willing. The mother can exercise and communicate her will, the zygote/embryo/fetus cannot. And yes, any contract should acknowledge one's capacity to negate/withdraw; anything else would constitute a slave contract.

It may not violate your reason, but it will send you down a dark path.
A dark path? What dark path? Believing that a person should not be coerced in service to another is "dark"?

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@zedvictor4
If you've never been born you can't die.
All living tissue must cease living at some point.......Internally or externally.

Your argument is silly.
Well stated.