Jesus Is Not God

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There are few passages from John gospel only indicating that Jesus is god.

The other gospel  refer to him as being  only a "son of god" which is nothing more than a title of the times, and today as a matter of fact.  Indeed, the whole nation of Israel were said by god to be his own and special children.   Also Jesus is clearly called   the "son of man".  So who is making Jesus out to be a god?

Why are the other gospels silent on the matter of Jesus being a god? And doesn't all of Christianity rest on this ambiguous claim.
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@Stephen

See Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus by Joseph Atwill


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@Stephen


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Stephen, the Atheist that knows more about the JUDEO-Christian Bible than any pseudo-christian upon this forum,

HOLY JESUS CHRIST!  When I read your topic title of "Jesus is not the serial killer Yahweh God incarnate," I fell to the floor and thinking to Jesus in prayer; "Please, let this not be true!"

Therefore, I must now try and compose myself before reading any more of your thread upon this very disturbing topic :(



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@BrotherDThomas
HOLY JESUS CHRIST!  When I read your topic title of "Jesus is not the serial killer Yahweh God incarnate," I fell to the floor and thinking to Jesus in prayer; "Please, let this not be true!"


 Sorry to burst you bubble there, Brother. But I have a feeling that THE BIBLE once again supports my claim. I will give you just one instance that I believe makes this clear;

Mark 12:28-34Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

OK you twisted my arm. Here's just one more:

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Matthew 24:36

 Do you see that , Brother clear as day not even the son but only the father. 
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@FLRW
See Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus by Joseph Atwill

I will do that, Thank you.
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@Stephen
all of Christianity does not rest on it. I know jehovah witnesses do not believe Jesus to be God, and John 3:16 doesn't require the belief to comply with.

I think John chapter one is the most common evidence for Jesus being God that I usually hear. Jw's believe that it is a mistranslation and instead of saying "the word was god" it should say the word was "a god" or the word was divine
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@Stephen


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Stephen,

What the hell, in prayer with Jesus just now, I guess I was speaking to the "Son of God Jesus" because he enlightened me to read the following biblical passages, to wit:

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only. “ (Matthew 24:36)

Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows, of which if Jesus was Yahweh God, he would already know, therefore this precludes that Jesus is only the Son of God Yahweh, and NOT God himself!   SHYTE!


“For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.” (John 5:26)

Here Jesus received his life from the Hebrew Yahweh God. Yahweh received his life from no one because he was eternally self-existent at all times. Therefore again precluding that Jesus is only the Son of Yahweh God!   DAMN YOU STEPHEN! 


“By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.” (John 5:30)

Jesus says, "by myself", I can do nothing. This blatantly indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with Yahweh God, where Jesus is not trying to “please himself” but rather is seeking to please the one who sent him which is Yahweh God. Therefore, Jesus is not Yahweh God incarnate!  STEPHEN, WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO OVERTURN TRINITARIANISM?! 


The Son of Yahweh God in recent prayer gave me more passages to show that he is only the Son of Yahweh God, but I think the above examples are embarrassing enough towards me and the Catholics, and the other Trinitarian faiths!  :(


Stephen, I'll let you know if the "Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate" shows up in prayer with me in the near future, which would really upset the applecart!  DAMN YOU FOR BRINGING FORTH THIS DISTURBING TOPIC!

In the name of the hung Savior,
Brother D. Thomas 

.


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@Stephen


Stephen,

A hell bound Atheist just sent me this image, of which logically speaking, is convoluted and doesn't make any rational sense to Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which I need Jesus to be no matter what!   :(


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@Wylted


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Wylted,

YOUR QUOTE: "I think John chapter one is the most common evidence for Jesus being God that I usually hear."

First thing, leave out the Hell Bound and Satanic Jehovah Witnesses because their Devil Speak "New World Translation" Bible should be trashed at all times!  Now, relating to your quote above, what DIVISION of Christianity do you follow, therefore do you believe that Jesus is the Son of the serial killer Hebrew Yahweh God, or Yahweh God incarnate?

Thank you for your timely response.

.
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@BrotherDThomas
I lean towards son of the serial killer. I read the Bible and go to church and try to figure out things for myself. I don't think I can neatly fall into any category. 

#11
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Jesus is God. (God and man, actually)
I admit I always hesitated to say he's God.. but I hesitated more to say he's not. most bible verses i saw were to arguable. then i saw some that weren't so arguable. and i'm one to give the bible the benefit of the doubt... so... I go with God...

Romans 9:5 - ...Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Titus 2:13-15 - ...our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:8 - But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever"

2 Peter 1:1 - ...the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ"

at the beginning of the book of John... "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Jesus became flesh and dwelt amoung us.. Jesus is the word.

In John, Jesus at one point says "unless you believe that I AM he, you will surely perish in your sins". only God is ever referenced to as I AM, and Jesus and everyone else knew it.

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@Stephen
So GOD fucked Joes missus, and gave birth to himself. 

How sporadic is that!
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@zedvictor4

Yes, Mormon doctrine is God  the Father had sex with Mary. What a shitty dad. He could make Adam from dust ....not Jesus?
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@FLRW
Old Abraham was really of his head wasn't he?
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@Wylted
all of Christianity does not rest on it. I know jehovah witnesses do not believe Jesus to be God,

The foundation of Christianity is that Jesus was god. But at least the JW's are closer to the mark than any other. And good for them. is all they have to do is drop the miracles and they will free themselves from the mire of the bullshite that other Christians have been falling for, for 2,000 years



and John 3:16 doesn't require the belief to comply with.

John3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

God loving the world does not mean Jesus is god.



I think John chapter one is the most common evidence for Jesus being God

Opinion. It doesn't mean that Jesus is god.


Jw's believe that it is a mistranslation and instead of saying "the word was god" it should say the word was "a god" or the word was divine

I see. So which one is it?   A god  - OR -the word was divine?


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@BrotherDThomas
Stephen,

What the hell, in prayer with Jesus just now, I guess I was speaking to the "Son of God Jesus" because he enlightened me to read the following biblical passages, to wit:

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only. “ (Matthew 24:36)

I think that verse speaks volumes - not even the son - , says it all, If we are to believe what Jesus is saying hear. Jesus here, Brother , is setting himself apart from god. So he clearly isn't god.


Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows, of which if Jesus was Yahweh God, he would already know, therefore this precludes that Jesus is only the Son of God Yahweh, and NOT God himself!   SHYTE!

 My point in a nutshell


“For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.” (John 5:26)

Here Jesus received his life from the Hebrew Yahweh God. Yahweh received his life from no one because he was eternally self-existent at all times. Therefore again precluding that Jesus is only the Son of Yahweh God!   DAMN YOU STEPHEN! 
Exactly. And I no doubt will have others Damn me too. 



"By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.” (John 5:30)


Jesus says, "by myself", I can do nothing. This blatantly indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with Yahweh God, where Jesus is not trying to “please himself” but rather is seeking to please the one who sent him which is Yahweh God. Therefore, Jesus is not Yahweh God incarnate!  STEPHEN, WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO OVERTURN TRINITARIANISM?! 
Again, this says it all.


The Son of Yahweh God in recent prayer gave me more passages to show that he is only the Son of Yahweh God, but I think the above examples are embarrassing enough towards me and the Catholics, and the other Trinitarian faiths!  :(
Stephen, I'll let you know if the "Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate" shows up in prayer with me in the near future, which would really upset the applecart!  DAMN YOU FOR BRINGING FORTH THIS DISTURBING TOPIC!

Please do, it will be nice for once to argue with  what Jesus has to say about these unreliable scriptures for himself.. But you will have to accept it for what it is.  





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@zedvictor4
So GOD fucked Joes missus, and gave birth to himself. 

How sporadic is that!

 So your'e not a believer then , Vic lad?

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@Wylted
I read the Bible and go to church and try to figure out things for myself. I don't think I can neatly fall into any category. 

And that is an excellent start, if you feel the need to start in the first place. 
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@Stephen
Nope. Believe is an ambiguous word.

Because, one does not need to believe in certainty.

One  believes in an uncertainty, which by definition lacks proof.

So I am not prepared to believe in anything.
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@zedvictor4
Nope. Believe is an ambiguous word.

Because, one does not need to believe in certainty.

One  believes in an uncertainty, which by definition lacks proof.

So I am not prepared to believe in anything.

 Couldn't agree more.

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@n8nrgmi
Jesus is God. (God and man, actually)

And that claim can be proven , can it?

So lets see here with my interjections in [     ]>.

Mark 11: 12-25

12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. [ God suffers hunger?] 

13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. [ God then didn't know that the tree wasn't baring fruit before he approached it?]

When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. [god didn't know or understand the seasons that he had created?]

14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” [ Why?  It wasn't the trees fault, the tree understood it propose for existing and when it should or should not produce fruit, and obviously God didn't.]

 And his disciples heard him say it. [So? And indeed, they must have thought him mad as many did , including his own family]

So can you know explain away why God failed  to understand and recognise the workings of his own creation here?
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@Stephen
  • see. So which one is it?   A god  - OR -the word was divine?
Greek is a high context language, it's hard to know. Just Google the difference between high context and low context languages. It could mean a god or it could mean divine. We don't know. We do know that the phrase has a different word being translated for God when it says "in the beginning was the word and god" than it does for the instance where it says "and the word was God". I think the use of different words must be signifying that they mean two different things.


I also don't know that there is much actual difference between calling something divine and calling it a God, even in English. So it seems like it would be a pretty similar statement.

 The foundation of Christianity is that Jesus was god. But at least the JW's are closer to the mark than any other. And good for them. is all they have to do is drop the miracles and they will free themselves from the mire of the bullshite that other Christians have been falling for, for 2,000 years

Belief still requires a belief in his death and resurrection,  so they need at least one miracle to be there.

Do you ever want to learn anything or do you just proselytize for atheism? 

For example when you told me about the bible mentioning some people being blameless when I said it was impossible to be sinless, I went and researched the words translated to blameless and sin in the Bible to learn what it was saying. 


You have been interacting with Christians for years and you still have not learned that Christianity is built on the death and resurrection of christ. 

You could honestly throw out the bible and it would rest on the same thing.

Why do you think the miracles in the Bible were not witnessed for example?

My guess is ignorance. No reliable scholar would say the miracles were not witnesses. There were records of a hundred people at least claiming to be the messiah and pulling off similar miracles. Why would it be possible for all these other fake messiah to perform these miracles but not this fake or real messiah known as Jesus?

The miracles you read about are things people actually saw. Even known fake messiah pulled off similar ones. It's almost retarded to say

"Well 50 people in that time made an illusion that they turned water into wine and it is well established historical fact, but since Christians believe one of them is god that means they never saw the same exact illusion"

It's just a retarded premise on your part. Please either think more critically or start taking nootropics.
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@Wylted
  • see. So which one is it?   A god  - OR -the word was divine?
Greek is a high context language, it's hard to know. Just Google the difference between high context and low context languages. It could mean a god or it could mean divine. We don't know. We do know that the phrase has a different word being translated for God when it says "in the beginning was the word and god" than it does for the instance where it says "and the word was God". I think the use of different words must be signifying that they mean two different things.
I also don't know that there is much actual difference between calling something divine and calling it a God, even in English. So it seems like it would be a pretty similar statement.
So then you do realise that you have just rendered the Bible  written in the English language  pointless and totally unreliable with that statement. Don't worry, you won't be the first to do this unwittingly.



 The foundation of Christianity is that Jesus was god. But at least the JW's are closer to the mark than any other. And good for them. is all they have to do is drop the miracles and they will free themselves

Belief still requires a belief in his death and resurrection,  so they need at least one miracle to be there.

Yes and  this is why I  have said above that is all they have to do now is drop the miracles and they will free themselves.


Do you ever want to learn anything or do you just proselytize for atheism? 

I have leaned much over the years about the scriptures. I have found that a myth has been wrapped around a man that believed himself to be rightful heir and king  to the throne of David & Jerusalem that lived 2,000 years ago. What have you learned?


You have been interacting with Christians for years and you still have not learned that Christianity is built on the death and resurrection of christ.

 I know perfectly well what the foundation of Christianity is. It's just unfortunate you haven't been keeping up. But you are new here , aren't you?


You could honestly throw out the bible and it would rest on the same thing.

Not if you discard the miracles and the belief that Jesus was a genetic son of god. Which he wasn't. Son of god is simply a title that thicko Christians have taken literally.


Why do you think the miracles in the Bible were not witnessed for example?

Because they were not "miracles".  They were simply part of initiation into the  (sheep) fold and raising to higher degrees in said fold. Read the bible.


My guess is ignorance. No reliable scholar would say the miracles were not witnesses.

 I haven't said that they were not witnessed. I have said they were not miracles. FFS keep up!


There were records of a hundred people at least claiming to be the messiah and pulling off similar miracles.

Maybe but it doesn't make these rituals of "miracles". And as you suggest, messiahs of the time were ten a penny, because they all had there own different ideas about god and OR different interpretations of the law. There is below a perfect example of "another"  at the time of Jesus going around doing exactly  what Jesus was doing.

HERE:

Less than half way through Luke's gospel there are two verses that appear to simply come out of nowhere that have nothing to do with the preceding  story lines in the chapter and neither the succeeding lines.   The two verses are sandwiched between _ an argument that had started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest, at  Luke 9: 46-48,    and the rejection of Jesus  from a Samaritan village. Luke 9: 51-55.

Luke: 49 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
            50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

Who was he?  so we clearly see, from THE BIBLE itself, Jesus wasn't the only  "miracle worker" was he? And neither was he the only son of god in the bible, if you take the fkn time to read the shite for yourself!


Why would it be possible for all these other fake messiah to perform these miracles but not this fake or real messiah known as Jesus?

Because they were not miracles, they were simply  initiations rites.


The miracles you read about are things people actually saw. Even known fake messiah pulled off similar ones. It's almost retarded to say

I haven't read about any miracles. What you are describing as "miracles" were simple initiation rites. So not as "retarded"  as you might think.


"Well 50 people in that time made an illusion that they turned water into wine and it is well established historical fact,

Well it not established fact, but again, this is simply an initiation ceremony.  


but since Christians believe one of them is god that means they never saw the same exact illusion"


 Well no Christian alive today can literally perform the water into wine can they? But if we look at it as a wedding ceremony , the sect being the bride and the initiate the groom then a different picture begins to immerge immediately, doesn't it. And the water into wine is the equivalent to  the saying " a silk purse from a sows ear" which means turning something ugly or bad (or dead) into something of value and worthiness.  It is only when you begin to understand some, or just a few of these meanings, that another completely different picture emerges as to what was going on at the time of the Christ and to what you maybe once believe/d.
Raising the "dead" is a simply  inhiation to a higher rank in the sect. Casting out a "demon" is cleansing  and the shedding of ones old life, as was curing a "leper".
But you can make up your own mind. I am not here to teach you fk all  or convert you. <<<<< KEEP THAT IN MIND!

It's just a retarded premise on your part. Please either think more critically or start taking nootropics.

 I did. You are just too stupid to understand that I don't start a thread unless I believe I can defend it. And I have still yet to see you defend anything about the scriptures successfully, with relying on the fkn supernatural.


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@Stephen
@n8nrgmi

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n8nrgmi,

YOUR QUOTE THAT YOU "THINK" JESUS IS GOD: "I admit I always hesitated to say he's God.. but I hesitated more to say he's not. most bible verses i saw were to arguable. then i saw some that weren't so arguable. and i'm one to give the bible the benefit of the doubt... so... I go with God..."

For Christ's sake, you are using the "benefit of the doubt" adage to "think" that Jesus is the serial killer Hebrew Yahweh God incarnate???!!!  This Devil Speak position of yours is NOT an absolute to say the least!  Therefore, how can you live with yourself on a "maybe" proposition that Jesus is God? BLASPHEME!

Furthermore, you've stepped in more proverbial poo by now inferring that the BIBLE CONTRADICTS ITSELF and the ramifications thereof, where we have brought forth Jesus' inspired words in verses showing that Jesus is only the SON OF GOD!  Whereas now, YOU are saying that Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate!  WTF?  Both of these biblical propositions cannot be true at the same time, either Jesus is specifically God, or He specifically the Son of God, understood?!

N8nrgmi, are you starting to smell "sulfur" yet?

.


#25
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@Stephen
you are just choosing to ignore the verses that say that Jesus is God. why use the bible as the standard for yourself but then ignore it when others use it? 

Jesus was also a man. he may not have known everything in his human form. 

he's human and a distinct from the father, so he can be both son of man, son of God, and God himself. 

but again, this is simple a look at the evidence of the verses. u just choose to ignore the evidence. 
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@BrotherDThomas
i'm damned 
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@BrotherDThomas
n8nrgmi,

YOUR QUOTE THAT YOU "THINK" JESUS IS GOD: "I admit I always hesitated to say he's God.. but I hesitated more to say he's not. most bible verses i saw were to arguable. then i saw some that weren't so arguable. and i'm one to give the bible the benefit of the doubt... so... I go with God..."

For Christ's sake, you are using the "benefit of the doubt" adage to "think" that Jesus is the serial killer Hebrew Yahweh God incarnate???!!!  This Devil Speak position of yours is NOT an absolute to say the least!  Therefore, how can you live with yourself on a "maybe" proposition that Jesus is God? BLASPHEME!

Furthermore, you've stepped in more proverbial poo by now inferring that the BIBLE CONTRADICTS ITSELF and the ramifications thereof, where we have brought forth Jesus' inspired words in verses showing that Jesus is only the SON OF GOD!  Whereas now, YOU are saying that Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate!  WTF?  Both of these biblical propositions cannot be true at the same time, either Jesus is specifically God, or He specifically the Son of God, understood?!

N8nrgmi, are you starting to smell "sulfur" yet?


I won't break that contradictory nonsense down , Brother you have stated all that is required. I can only expect that N8nrgmi will see his glaring contradiction and come off the fence one way or the other. It is as you clearly have pointed out, N8nrgmi cannot have it both ways although, many Christians, for reasons known only to them, believe that they can.

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@n8nrgmi
you are just choosing to ignore the verses that say that Jesus is God.

  Do you mean I am choosing verses that contradict the verses that you believe says Jesus is god?



why use the bible as the standard for yourself but then ignore it when others use it? 

THE BIBLE is not a standard for me or anyone else alive. THE BIBLE is an ancient book for an ancient audience of it time.


Jesus was also a man.

YES! THE BIBLE clearly says that umpteen times , doesn't it. 


he may not have known everything in his human form. 

Correct, he was human and an educated one at that. 


he's human and a distinct from the father, so he can be both son of man, son of God, and God himself. 

NOPE! THE BIBLE gives no indication that Jesus says he is god. 


but again, this is simple a look at the evidence of the verses. u just choose to ignore the evidence. 

  Of course I look at THE BIBLICAL ` evidence `. .... for what it is worth and a scant and ambiguous as it is.
I wouldn't have started this thread without looking into THE BIBLE itself.
#29
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@Stephen
the bible has exact verses that say Jesus is God. it has ambiguous evidence that he might not be God. so how do you reconcile these? it must be the case that the bible says he is God, cause there is concrete language in that regard and the ambiguous language can only be used to support that. 

i understand that you dont follow the bible as error free or whatever. but if you are holding out the standard of what the bible says, and giving it the benefit of the doubt that it's comprehensible, you can't then back out of that proposition just because you dont like the results.  you can reject the bible because you dont like, but dont pretend it supports your position on this. 
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Stephen
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the bible has exact verses that say Jesus is God. it has ambiguous evidence that he might not be God. so how do you reconcile these?


It also  has verses that god says he isn't god too, doesn't it.  And it is not for me to reconcile, that is for the theist. I am simply highlighting the ambiguity that is the the bible. 


it must be the case that the bible says he is God, cause there is concrete language in that regard and the ambiguous language can only be used to support that. 

 So it is unreliable as any sort of testament or fact.   Or any kind of "gospel truth".


i understand that you dont follow the bible as error free or whatever.

Correct. I don't The bible is simply made up of unreliable ambiguous half stories. Example; what happened to Lazarus the most famous resurrected character in the bible next to Jesus?   Why did the Jews want to kill him. What had he done in their eyes that warranted a death sentence death? This is what I mean by unreliable ambiguous half stories.




but if you are holding out the standard of what the bible says, and giving it the benefit of the doubt that it's comprehensible,

 I am saying that it is simply a confusing mass of contradictions and I  have proven this to be the case many times in many of my thread. And  isn't it Christians that have set the bible standards  and that have been preaching from it for over 2,000 years?   Because  it is  not me, my friend.


you can't then back out of that proposition just because you dont like the results. 


 What results.


you can reject the bible because you dont like,

 I can do what I like. But not liking it wouldn't be one of the reasons that I reject it. I have better reasons for rejecting it in the state that it has come down to us over the millennia and reject it on the grounds that I disagree with how it has been preached by Chaplains, Pastors and Priests for the last 2,000 years.


but dont pretend it supports your position on this. 
 I pretend nothing. I don't have to.   And  if you are a devote Christian, then problems that arise from these unreliable and ambiguous half stories in scripture are all your problems, not mine.