Is it a sin to believe god doesn't control outcome? I believe the universe and everything in it was created by an intelligent force, those who believe in creation call that force God. I see 0 evidence that god controls outcome for anyone or anything. I do not wish to debate gods existence. You either believe of a creators existence or you don't. I seriously doubt god cares about my stupid petty first world problems and why would he? God doesn't even care about mass genocide. Yep, I believe in the creator but I don't believe the creator controls outcome of anything other than his initial creation of everything. God already knows the outcome based on the inherent chance of probability and chaos of his creation. That some things will do this and some things will do that, some things will be effected by this and some things will be effected by that, and all things that exists will be effected by something based on where they are and the moment in time that they are there.
Is it a sin?
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@sadolite
God does care about you. He has given you free will and you are responsible for what happens in your life.
We all suffer sadolite. God did not put you here to live a happy life or even to avoid being genocided.
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@sadolite
Is it a sin to believe god doesn't control outcome?
No, beliefs are not sins (talking strictly from a spiritual point of view without dogma attached). Your actions on the other hand are what you need to be acutely aware of. And that's only because they affect your life and your future experiences. But this isn't Gods doing, it is yours.
I believe the universe and everything in it was created by an intelligent force
That sounds like a reasonable and intelligent conclusion.
those who believe in creation call that force God. I see 0 evidence that god controls outcome for anyone or anything.
I see no problem with that way of thinking.
I do not wish to debate gods existence. You either believe of a creators existence or you don't.
I understand, thank God for people like you lol. I on the other hand lack such self control on this issue.
I seriously doubt god cares about my stupid petty first world problems and why would he?
God cares about what you care about in the sense that they are one and the same, likewise what you don't care about God doesn't care about. Everything you experience God experiences through you, when you decide to care about something then your world changes to reflect it, depending on how much you care. There is no real distinction between your own life's experiences and what God observes.
God doesn't even care about mass genocide. Yep, I believe in the creator but I don't believe the creator controls outcome of anything other than his initial creation of everything. God already knows the outcome based on the inherent chance of probability and chaos of his creation. That some things will do this and some things will do that, some things will be effected by this and some things will be effected by that, and all things that exists will be effected by something based on where they are and the moment in time that they are there.
Well you don't want to go through life with such a nonchalant attitude about creation, because in reality you are very much connected to it and you are very much a part of God, and God in you. What you're saying has some truth to it but you don't want that to rob you of the significance of having God within you as well as all around you...You don't want to get hung up on thinking that there is no reason for your existence and there is no point in caring or thinking God cares or doesn't, or that God created all this and left you high and dry. You can if you want to, you can give up and it wouldn't really matter to anyone because your spiritual journey is only relevant to you. But that's what makes it very important to you as well, because you have a spiritual path ahead of you and it is for your benefit alone you learn everything you can about that aspect of yourself.
Stop looking at God in relation to the world but instead try looking at how God is relevant to you.
When you leave this physical body and physical world, you have ahead of you a very long journey of learning about God and learning about yourself and what that means. But it starts now, creation wasn't set up just for you to appear on earth and then vanish, not even close, this is only one little experience on one little planet. You are an eternal presence and you have the power to change not just yourself but worlds in front of you. This is a stepping stone where you're just getting your foot in the door so don't be so short sighted about life.
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@sadolite
God doesn't even care about mass genocide.
Yes well, one read of the Old Testament proves that doesn't it? Seeing that he had a direct hand in most of it.
I believe in the creator but I don't believe the creator controls outcome of anything other than his initial creation of everything.
That is not what the bible says. So we can discard most of it then can't we. If we go by your own belief.
God already knows the outcome based on the inherent chance of probability and chaos of his creation......
And his did nothing at all to correct the mistakes in his creation.
That some things will do this and some things will do that, some things will be effected by this and some things will be effected by that, and all things that exists will be effected by something based on where they are and the moment in time that they are there.
Then it all wasn't as " very good " as first believed , was it?
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Genesis 1:31
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@Wylted
God does care about you. He has given you free will
Explain free will given to us god?
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@sadolite
Is it a sin to believe god doesn't control outcome? I believe the universe and everything in it was created by an intelligent force, those who believe in creation call that force God. I see 0 evidence that god controls outcome for anyone or anything. I do not wish to debate gods existence. You either believe of a creators existence or you don't. I seriously doubt god cares about my stupid petty first world problems and why would he? God doesn't even care about mass genocide. Yep, I believe in the creator but I don't believe the creator controls outcome of anything other than his initial creation of everything. God already knows the outcome based on the inherent chance of probability and chaos of his creation. That some things will do this and some things will do that, some things will be effected by this and some things will be effected by that, and all things that exists will be effected by something based on where they are and the moment in time that they are there.
Why would it be a sin if god does not control outcomes? Sin is something that some religious people care about. It is not real. Just like god is not real. Why are you worried about whether it is a sin? Your post seems to suggest that you hold to a theistic position, yet it is not clear whether you think god is just a force or a cause of the creation.
In my opinion, don't stress to much about sin. It's unhealthy and will probably only lead to gout and losing your hair.
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@Wylted
God does care about you. He has given you free will and you are responsible for what happens in your life.We all suffer sadolite. God did not put you here to live a happy life or even to avoid being genocided.
how can god care about us, if god does not exist. On the other hand, if hypothetically god did exist, how would you know he cares for you? Isn't suffering proof that god does not care for us? if god did not put us to live a happy life or to avoid being genocided, why do you think god put us here?
Freewill is a myth. Everything is determined. Cause and effect.
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@sadolite
Sin is make believe really.
A bit like hypothetical GODS.
No. Humans have free will.
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@Intelligence_06
No. Humans have free will.
10/10
Of course they don't. And neither did a god give us free will. The ten commandments proves that. But many Christians are a just little bit to thick to even understand this fact, even when the obviosity of it all slaps then between the eyebrows.
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@sadolite
Not familiar enough with other religions to answer for them but Christians would call this 'rejecting god' which is often called the 'one unforgivable sin'.
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@sadolite
When Sir Richard Branson 'became' a billionaire being an atheist, why should we still believe in God?
Not everything has to be answered by the Bible, there's many other Holy Books folks. There's also common sense, if someone answers a question that seems in conflict with what the Bible portrays it doesn't mean the answer is not legit. And actually nowhere in the OP does it mention the Bible at all.
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@Timid8967
how can god care about us, if god does not exist. On the other hand, if hypothetically god did exist, how would you know he cares for you? Isn't suffering proof that god does not care for us? if god did not put us to live a happy life or to avoid being genocided, why do you think god put us here?
I went over much of this in our discussion you seem to have abandoned, so unfortunately you're going to be another member who receives explanations that deal with your problems just to turn around and repeat them. That's what makes this forum and many of its members a waste of time.
To maintain intellectual integrity means to follow the logic through, and if it works then we abandon our previous faulty logic and line of reasoning.
Freewill is a myth. Everything is determined. Cause and effect.
Cause and effect and freewill are not in contrast to one another. Nothing is determined until there is first a cause, the cause is always a spontaneous event in relation to your choices. "Free" will though might not be the most accurate terminology because while we are allowed to choose whatever we want, there are consequences for each choice so our choices (cause) effect our future experiences. I like to simply call it our own will.
@ EtrnlVw,
actually nowhere in the OP does it mention the Bible at all.
Very true. But the OP mentions "god" enough times in his short paragraph for anyone consider that he is talking about holy scripture. 7 times in fact. This not to mention the three times the OP links the word "creation" to this god and refers to THE creator/s..
So I don't believe that will fly.
But that is entirely up to the OP and not you to tells if he is talking the biblical god or not.
There's also common sense
There is , and common sense tells me that the OP had the biblical god in mind when he created his thread. He can correct me if I am wrong.
Not everything has to be answered by the Bible
I agree with you. Many will not. And if it is not in the bible not many devout believers will even consider your very honest fact..
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@Timid8967
It is not real. Just like god is not real.
You can hold on to the ridiculous assertion that God does not exist, but its all based upon faulty reasoning. So while you parade around the forum claiming it to others who have put the time and thought in, it's not very convincing because you have no real basis to make the claim, at least not a legit one.
Sin is something that some religious people care about. It is not real.
Remember we talked about the distinction between God's existence and dogma? religious propositions and God's existence are two separate concerns. So you make a good point here, only your argument is moot.... "Sin is not real because God is not real"....lol
You have no way to determine or prove that God does not exist, so you have no basis to claim anything about the rest of it.
yet it is not clear whether you think god is just a force or a cause of the creation.
He used the term Creator, which is pretty clear.
But that is entirely up to the OP and not you to tells if he is talking the biblical god or not.
That was the point I was making, go back to bed.
But the OP mentions "god" enough times
So you admit you made the assumption.....?
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@Wylted
.
Wylted, the Bible rewriter,
Jesus H. Christ, I thought you were dumbfounded enough in the following link when you admitted, as I had shown, that you were ignorant of the Bible in certain areas: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6384-hell-bound-muslims-try-to-defend-islam-against-women?page=5&post_number=109
YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE THIS TIME IN POST #2: “He has given you free will and you are responsible for what happens in your life.”
Now, you step in it again when you say that pseudo-christians like you have Free Will, NOT!!! Obviously you do not read your JUDEO-Christian Bible, and for the sake of you having further embarrassment upon this forum, start reading it Bible fool, no free will!
YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE THIS TIME IN POST #2: “He has given you free will and you are responsible for what happens in your life.”
Now, you step in it again when you say that pseudo-christians like you have Free Will, NOT!!! Obviously you do not read your JUDEO-Christian Bible, and for the sake of you having further embarrassment upon this forum, start reading it Bible fool, no free will!
NEXT BIBLE IGNORANT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE "WYLTED" WILL BE … ?
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@Stephen
@Wylted
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Stephen,
YOUR REALITY CHECK QUOTE: "Of course they don't. And neither did a god give us free will."
As is shown, the Bible ignorant WYLTED says that pseudo-christians have Free Will along with the totally Bible ignorant fool ETRNLVW! How many times have we literally buried these dumbfounded pseudo-christians upon this topic where they DO NOT have Free Will? LOL! What a novel idea it would be if these fools actually read their Bibles! LOL
Of note, in Sadolite's biography page, he states that he is a pseudo-christian, so he has to be talking about the serial killer Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, and the ramifications thereof. :)
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@BrotherDThomas
Stephen, What a novel idea it would be if these fools actually read their Bibles!
I agree ,Brother. It would be nice for just once if they at least had read the bible for themselves. I am sure it would make for decent conversation and argument wouldn't it? Instead they prefer flashing around their scholarly titles and and scholarly credentials especially when they hit a bible brick wall as if this somehow trumps one's own biblical knowledge.
Of note, in Sadolite's biography page, he states that he is a pseudo-christian, so he has to be talking about the serial killer Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, and the ramifications thereof. :)
If that what he states then you are both on the same page at least, Brother. Be thankful for small mercies, but I suspect that won't the case for too long.
@ EtrnlVw,
But the OP mentions "god" enough timesgo back to bed....................So you admit you made the assumption.....?
Show me where I have denied making one. And don't start derailing someone else's thread with unnecessary bickering and slights.
That was the point I was making
And I agreed with you. Did you assume that he wasn't talking about the biblical god?
This is how God works.
A 72-year-old North Carolina woman was out running errands when, police say, she was shot and critically injured.
The woman had just left her home in Erwin on Monday morning and was waiting at a stop sign in her truck when she was shot in the head, Harnett County Sheriff Wayne Coats said during a news conference, according to local news outlets.
She was “an innocent bystander” who had gone out to “do her daily chores,” Coats said during the news conference, which was streamed live by WRAL.
And I agreed with you.
Good, then stop prattling on in every topic about how others are wrong because you're fixated on the Bible (along with the other freak). People can have their own views that might not concur with that book, grow up.
Did you assume that he wasn't talking about the biblical god?
Why don't you learn how to read? I didn't assume anything, it's irrelevant to the OP and irrelevant to my answers.
Now don't start derailing this guys thread with your nonsensical obsessions. If I wanted to talk to an idiot I would have addressed you personally.
Good, then stop prattling on in every topic about how others are wrong because.
Example please.
Did you assume that he wasn't talking about the biblical god?Why don't you learn how to read? I didn't assume anything,
I can read. And I asked you did you assume the OP was talking about the biblical god considering that it was YOU and only YOU that brought THE BIBLEinto the mix and no one else did BEFORE YOU!!!!:
Here you go;
Do you see that^^^^^^^^^ ? That ^^^^^^^^ is YOU!
So you were assuming then that the OP was referring to the BIBLICAL god, weren't you? Clown.
If I wanted to talk to an idiot I would have addressed you personally.
Well that does say a lot for your thoughts and feelings for those that you do address personally, doesn't it? Clown.
Off you go now.
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@FLRW
Ya, that's pretty much what I see going on everywhere and many tell me God had a purpose there. Just not buying it. What beneficial purpose does that outcome serve anywhere down the line? I am not asking you directly, It is a rhetorical question that I am sure someone will try and answer now that I have brought it up.
According to the bible: It says I reject god if I don't believe god controls outcome. Guess I am going to hell. But if you behave like an evil, raping , murdering, pedophile SOB all your life and then all of the sudden believe in god just before you die you get to go to heaven. Don't really know if I would like the company god keeps in heaven. I still believe the universe and everything in it was created though.
God Himself has revealed this truth to us in His Word. You have rejected the fact that He is active in the world (Isaiah 45:7). You have rejected that He is concerned with the affairs of man (Exodus 3:7). You have rejected the Word of God, which is the revealing of His will to humanity (John 12:48-49)
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@EtrnlVw
It is not real. Just like god is not real.You can hold on to the ridiculous assertion that God does not exist, but its all based upon faulty reasoning. So while you parade around the forum claiming it to others who have put the time and thought in, it's not very convincing because you have no real basis to make the claim, at least not a legit one.
There is no need to be churlish. There is no need to call my opinion ridiculous. You have your opinion. I would not call your opinion ridiculous. I am not parading around on this forum. God does not exist. I prayed to God and he did not answer. I told him to put up or shut up. I suggested to God that if he loves me then he should reveal himself to me. God did not answer me. He did not put up. He did not reveal himself to me. Either God did not hear me or he chose not to answer me or he does not exist. If God did not hear me, then I suppose he is not omniscient. If God chose not to answer me, then he is very rude. If he does not exist - then his non-response is entirely consistent with not hearing from him.
To suggest that I have no basis for not believing in god is the reality for me. I don't particularly care that it does not convince you. I have seen no compelling evidence that god exists.
Sin is something that some religious people care about. It is not real.Remember we talked about the distinction between God's existence and dogma? religious propositions and God's existence are two separate concerns. So you make a good point here, only your argument is moot.... "Sin is not real because God is not real"....lolYou have no way to determine or prove that God does not exist, so you have no basis to claim anything about the rest of it.
I remember you talked about this distinction. And for the sake of our discussion I am prepared to accept that there are two separate concerns. Nevertheless, unless someone actually believes in god then sin is not something that they will care about. I have indicated that I do not believe in god. I have attempted to see if god exists - by what most religious people would consider to be an appropriate medium, prayer. And yet I still have not been convinced. I think it is disingenuous of you to suggest that I have no basis to make such a claim.
yet it is not clear whether you think god is just a force or a cause of the creation.He used the term Creator, which is pretty clear.
Perhaps you are correct - yet it seemed the OP posited both cause and creator as possibilities - leaving open a non-clear conclusion.
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@sadolite
According to the bible: It says I reject god if I don't believe god controls outcome. Guess I am going to hell. But if you behave like an evil, raping , murdering, pedophile SOB all your life and then all of the sudden believe in god just before you die you get to go to heaven. Don't really know if I would like the company god keeps in heaven. I still believe the universe and everything in it was created though.God Himself has revealed this truth to us in His Word. You have rejected the fact that He is active in the world (Isaiah 45:7). You have rejected that He is concerned with the affairs of man (Exodus 3:7). You have rejected the Word of God, which is the revealing of His will to humanity (John 12:48-49)
Yes. All very ` carrot and stick` isn't it?
Maybe.
The New GOD hasn't yet been created.
So maybe a woman in a truck is irrelevant.
As would be references to the Old GOD that perished billions of years ago.
Maybe.
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@Timid8967
There is no need to be churlish.
Maybe you should examine what you say on this forum as indirect insults pointed towards a belief that God exists. When you ignore intelligent and thought provoking discussions just to preach your assumptions within a forum tailored for spiritual thought you might get the hammer from time to time. I'm not a mean person at all, what I find rude is how you express your opinions about belief in a Creator. My objective is to give you real discourse you can take and ponder on.
There is no need to call my opinion ridiculous.
That is in fact the tone you parade about Theistic beliefs in this religious forum. I always find it rather ridiculous that the very ones that are the most insulting towards Theistic beliefs are the ones most obsessed with stalking religious forums lol.
You have your opinion. I would not call your opinion ridiculous. I am not parading around on this forum.
You're parading your assumption over and over that God does not exist without justification. Because I've dealt with everything you've given me easily and we haven't even cracked the door yet. You just decided my answers were not sufficient because your mind and thoughts have been hijacked by a foreign ideology, not because my answers didn't deal with your assertions.
God does not exist.
And here it is again, this is called an assertion. There is no reason to believe that.
I prayed to God and he did not answer.
I gave you an analogy in a previous discussion about the nature of consciousness, radios and channels of receptions to consider. You would readily admit any person claiming to hear God audibly would be an insane person, yet here you are acting like an insane person. Rather I would like to give you some clear ideas how that works in reality.
I told him to put up or shut up. I suggested to God that if he loves me then he should reveal himself to me. God did not answer me. He did not put up. He did not reveal himself to me. Either God did not hear me or he chose not to answer me or he does not exist. If God did not hear me, then I suppose he is not omniscient. If God chose not to answer me, then he is very rude. If he does not exist - then his non-response is entirely consistent with not hearing from him.
There are objective steps within the arena of spirituality, one of them is not giving God ultimatums, in fact it is your attitude which is directly in the forefront. Once we deal with your snot-nosed attitude the rest is easy. Spirituality is a give and take relationship, if you give nothing you get nothing. Once you put your attitude on the alter, you will find you will get more than you ever asked for.
To suggest that I have no basis for not believing in god is the reality for me. I don't particularly care that it does not convince you. I have seen no compelling evidence that god exists.
Sure, maybe correlation is not something you understand. And maybe your preconceived ideas about spiritual experience gets in the way? The indication (evidence) that a transcendent reality exists is so much in our very faces it could only be a stupid ideology that could blind us to it. If you believe and think it's stupid to believe in God then you will never see evidence for it....period.
I remember you talked about this distinction. And for the sake of our discussion I am prepared to accept that there are two separate concerns. Nevertheless, unless someone actually believes in god then sin is not something that they will care about. I have indicated that I do not believe in god. I have attempted to see if god exists - by what most religious people would consider to be an appropriate medium, prayer. And yet I still have not been convinced. I think it is disingenuous of you to suggest that I have no basis to make such a claim.
Your claim that God does not exist has zero basis.... you can't even prove it yet you keep saying it lol......That's why agnosticism is superior to atheism. If you wanted to maintain intellectual integrity you would take a position of ignorance on this issue. You don't know anything, many others do.
Perhaps you are correct - yet it seemed the OP posited both cause and creator as possibilities - leaving open a non-clear conclusion.
The Creator would BE the cause.