HELL BOUND MUSLIMS, TRY TO DEFEND ISLAM AGAINST WOMEN!

Author: BrotherDThomas

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#31
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@MarkWebberFan

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MarkWebberFan,,

YOUR CONTINUED RUNAWAY FROM WHAT YOU THOUGHT YOU KNEW: "No doubt they'll address your erroneous references at some point."

To save yourself from further embarrassment within this prestigious forum, and before you remove one foot to insert the other again, don't make claims that you cannot support, other than to embarrassingly run away from them in front of the membership as shown in the link below:

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#32
Safalcon7
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With an objective guidance in place, the rulings dont seem unnatural to me. In fact, I believe youve misrepresented some of them, as all anti-muslim christians have been doing for the past 2 decades or so just to fit your despise against a faith in modern dynamics.
#33
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@Lemming
I recall that you had a thread about "Movies that conciously edited out powerful women"
And I like how well you speak, though I don't always agree with you.
I'm curious of your opinion, perspective, on a wife obeying her husband?
Posts #19 down,  about.
  • I am a feminist, which means I believe women are just as deserving of self-determination as men and men's equals in any legal, political, or societal sense.   I think our most fundamental  human responsibility is to thoughtfully caretake the richness of life on earth and that the proper care and education of children must be the number one priority of that inheritance and that our whole economic outlook as humans should should be restructured to reflect the value of that priority and duty. To that end, women as the babymakers and the more biologically driven caregivers live closer to our true economic priorities than men do and we men  make a mistake when we fail to respect women's superior compassion and sense of community in our decision-making.   Women understand better than men the whole point of civilization as a function of women's role in human reproduction and our society should reflect  and include a feminine perspective in all things.
  • I am also a liberal, which means I believe that human freedom and equality ought to be prioritized over the preservation of wealth and property and even tradition, as important as all those thing are to humanity.
    • So I don't believe women owe men their obedience.  If anything, I think men ought to (slightly) defer to women as the better informed regarding humanity's top priority, which is the care and education of the next generation.
    • But the core of liberalism is also a profound respect for other people's belief and I'm not much down for forums where we sit out around and trash other people's religion, particularly since we are fairly likely to be ill-informed or wholly  ignorant about the nature of other people's religion and particularly  in cases where religions have a long history of wisdom and good deeds, as is true of all major religions.
When I was in college, I took a job for some minor Saudi princeling who was blind and pursuing a doctorate in Lexicography- an insanely ambitious pursuit.  My incredibly dull but good-paying job was to read pages and pages of dictionary entries to him, carefully describing every notation from a wide variety of dictionaries. I am pretty deaf but years of speech therapy has made me very good at reading things out loud. 

I spent many hours at the Prince's nice house and his wife was always there in full niqab but she never spoke. If we walked into a room where she was she would immediately leave without comment.  Her husband never introduced her or spoke of her in all my time there.  One day, he called to say my services were no longer required and I never saw him again.

I did, however, meet his wife once more at a grocery store on the other side of town months later.  She knew me by name and had to introduce herself because I'd never seen her face.  She was wearing a skirt and a bedazzled t-shirt and she was surprisingly young and beautiful considering what a fat toad the princeling had been.  She was funny and spoke perfect English and she was utterly contemptuous of her husband.  She explained that I'd been fired because her husband learned that I lived with a woman unmarried (of course he didn't know that I was gay but I'm sure that would have been equal cause for termination). 

She explained without prompting that she hated her role and restrictions in Arab society and only in this town where nobody knew  her could she go out once in a while and participate in society like a normal, pretty girl laughing and flirting and talking shit about her husband.  She was delightful, and I often think about how much that fat prince was missing out on because he treated that pretty girl like an object to be owned instead of woman to be adored.  Ironically,  because of  his religiously rigorous possessiveness, strangers like me got to meet and enjoy the best of his wife while he never would- not just denying himself the pleasure of her company but kind of cluelessly self-cuckolding in the name of God.

This experience has informed my assumptions about women in strict Islamic societies more than any other.


#34
MarkWebberFan
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@BrotherDThomas
Well...
#35
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@Barney
This was in the worst parts of Iraq. I think most of the rebels we fought against were not as bad as that (not to say good, just still definable as human).
I find that fascinating. 
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#36
BrotherDThomas
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@MarkWebberFan
@Timid8967


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Timid8967,

WHAT PART OF STEPHENS QUOTE TO YOU DIDN'T YOU UNDERSTAND?: "I do not advise you to start to derail another members thread by creating another argument with me."

To save yourself further embarrassment at DEBATEART, like the MARKWEBBERFAN stepped in at post #31, STAY OUT of my thread, and take your child-like demeanor to a Children's Christian forum like I told you to do, understood?

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#37
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@BrotherDThomas
Maaf, ulasan tidak jelas. Saya akan lari.
#38
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@oromagi
When I was in college, I took a job for some minor Saudi princeling ...

I spent many hours at the Prince's nice house and his wife was always there in full niqab but she never spoke...

I did, however, meet his wife once more at a grocery store on the other side of town months later....

This experience has informed my assumptions about women in strict Islamic societies more than any other.
Really good read. I think she probably cherishes that memory more than her whole experience at Saudi Arabia. I never went through what she went through so this is just my speculation since I lived most of my life in an equally conservative muslim society. 

Saudi Arabia's main jurisprudence (Hanbali) is not far off from other muslim countries. I'd say muslims split along cultural lines so I can reasonably expect other strict Islamic countries to have similar cases of abuse towards women. I do think they differ in manners of expression. For example, indonesians are more likely to throw in hunger deprivation than social deprivation.
#39
Timid8967
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@BrotherDThomas
WHAT PART OF STEPHENS QUOTE TO YOU DIDN'T YOU UNDERSTAND?: "I do not advise you to start to derail another members thread by creating another argument with me."

To save yourself further embarrassment at DEBATEART, like the MARKWEBBERFAN stepped in at post #31, STAY OUT of my thread, and take your child-like demeanor to a Children's Christian forum like I told you to do, understood?
Stephen talks in riddles. I think the best way to understand Stephen is to read what he says - and then conclude that he wants you to do the opposite. 

This makes sense too - because he is a theist pretending he an atheist. Whereas you are an atheist pretending to be theist.  Both of you need to come out of the closet.  

And you do not get to tell people to stay out of topics.  And if you were to do so nicely, it might be different. But if like Stephen you are really just meaning the opposite of what you say - then I guess it is "welcome Timid".  

There is no Hell. There is no God. You are not only a fake Christian, you are a fake person seeking to lead people into ignorance.  Muslims have problems - but so do you.  I would rather sit at the table with a Muslim that you.  You are the dangerous one. With Muslims you get what they give you. With you - ?????
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#40
BrotherDThomas
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@MarkWebberFan

MarkWebberFan,

YOUR QUOTE IN ASKING ME SOMETHING: "Maaf, ulasan tidak jelas. Saya akan lari."

Okay, I'll take "vanilla!" Thanks.

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#41
drlebronski
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Brotherdthomas seems like one of the angry preachers that yell from the side of the road both because of what he says and his profile picture
#42
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@BrotherDThomas
Well-said sir. I think you've made an exceptional comeback.  Lol
#43
Safalcon7
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@oromagi
So, when the wife roams around flirting despite her husband, showing off her body- which is her matter of will of course- to other men that she barely knows, she's not an object of vision- but if she lives under her husbands supervision, obeys his ruling in his house, she easily becomes one!? lol- Good observation. I don't blame the wife for it tho. There are some basic and fundamental rulings in Islam that either make or oust a person in or out of Islamic fold. By that virtue, she's close to losing that identity in the first place- again, not because she chose her path of freedom from her husband's authority but based on the conversation you had with her, her faith in God edges towards disbelief, Cause well, Islam is all about faith- more so than practice. So, to objectively decide upon a woman's mindset in a strict Islamic society, you'd do better exemplifying a strict Islamic female rather than a liberal wanting to compromise.
#44
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@Bones
If the core beliefs of Islam were truly peaceful, then Islam extremists should be extremely peaceful.
Just to be clear here, you are completely incorrect in what I just quoted.

However, despite that you are correct specifically with Islam, it's not a religion of peace.

Extremists/fundamentalists of all religions are not peaceful, in case you didn't know.
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#45
BrotherDThomas
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@MarkWebberFan


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MarkWebberFan,

YOUR WANTING QUOTE AGAIN: "Well-said sir. I think you've made an exceptional comeback.  Lol"

The only one in needing a comeback in this thread is YOU, as unfortunately shown in the links below. :(



NEXT?

#46
Safalcon7
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@RationalMadman
Islam is NOT a religion of peace. Period. Those who claim otherwise, be they Islamic scholars or orientalists are rather apologetic about the reality and the wide array of aspects of Islam. Having said that, not being of peace doesn't necessarily entail being something of violence lol. And extremism exists on both ends- too far right and too far left.
#47
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@RationalMadman
And I admit of that for sure cause nowhere in any Islamic text whether be of divine or historical accounts, Islam doesn't claim itself to be a religion of peace. It's more of a political construct used on different occassions for different purposes- sometimes for the apologetic field of the faith and sometimes to compromise with liberals.
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#48
BrotherDThomas
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drlebronski,

YOUR REVEALING AND TRUTHFUL QUOTE: "Brotherdthomas seems like one of the angry preachers that yell from the side of the road both because of what he says and his profile picture."

My Greyhound Bus Depot Ministry, my Nevada State Brothel Ministry, where I take a missionary position, and my Nudest Camp Ministry, where I stand up for Jesus (weather permitting), and this esteemed Religion Forum all keep me very busy in the name of Jesus in promoting His doctrine. Therefore, I can become angry when dealing with totally Bible inept pseudo-christians.  I preclude that Jesus has set an example for me to act in this way as described in the following example:

“When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. “so He made a whip of cords and drove all from the Temple courts, both sheep and cattle; He scattered the coins of the Money Changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, “get these out of here! Stop turning my Fathers house into a market!"  His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.” (John 2: 13-17)  

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#49
MarkWebberFan
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@Safalcon7
 There are some basic and fundamental rulings in Islam that either make or oust a person in or out of Islamic fold. By that virtue, she's close to losing that identity in the first place- again, not because she chose her path of freedom from her husband's authority but based on the conversation you had with her, her faith in God edges towards disbelief, Cause well, Islam is all about faith- more so than practice. So, to objectively decide upon a woman's mindset in a strict Islamic society, you'd do better exemplifying a strict Islamic female rather than a liberal wanting to compromise.
Yes, it took me all of my childhood to realize this. Islam leaves scant little to those dipping their toes outside of its fold. Submission requires strict observance of its tenets. While mere ignorance is excused, wilful disobedience is punished. I don't agree with this lifestyle. 

For illustration purposes, the fractured Islamic parties in Indonesia often occupy themselves with rules of what women should wear. I'm pretty sure Iraq's leadership is also occupied with the same thing. Really, across muslim countries, this sounds like a trivial pursuit. In my opinion, I would go insane listening to similar versions of the same fundamentalist rule. Then again, Im told to do it for the sake of the afterlife! But no, I vehemently disagree.
#50
Yassine
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@Stephen
@BrotherDThomas
@Bones
@Aryanman

Brother, you barely scratch the surface, for the fact is Islam, even in moderation, is not a religion of peace. A study by Pew Research Centre involving 38,000 from over 39 different countries found that
- You're projecting. If your culture is warlike & violent, that does not mean other cultures share your values. Why aren't you bringing studies about actual views on peace & violence?! According to Gallup, close to 80% in MENA (Middle East North Africa) see violence against civilians as never justified, while almost half in North America see it as sometimes justified -in contrast to only 13% in MENA. Even among Americans, Muslims are the least to say violence against civilians is sometimes justified: 21%, compared to 58% of Christians, and 43% non-religious. This of course is be excepted given how incessantly violent the American culture is -it's not because of Muslims.

- I fail to see how this relates to peace?! I'm surprised 40% of Muslims are that liberal. That's sad! I know you people adore degeneracy & lewdness. Anything that is conducive to decency, family or virtue you abhor. You're fine with a woman obeying the officer in public, her boss at work, the principal at school, the government.. & any man she happens to be under, but God forbid she shows the same devotion to her husband!!! A marriage, by definition, is a collective fact. Individualism in marriage is a square circle -unattainable. Either no individualism (aka selfishness) or no marriage. The husband, in his turn, must be devoted to his wife in providing for her & caring for her needs. You're ok with women exposing themselves to strangers they don't belong to or with, but God forbid they cover themselves & give that privilege to those with whom they belongs. Disgusting!

- Again, what does this have to do with peace? 25% clearly have an issue with their faith. It's obvious my faith dictates that belief in Allah is required for salvation & rejection of God is damnation. I don't have to agree with someone to treat them with kindness & fairness or tolerate their practices, which is what Islam enjoins. Contrastingly, your Tolerance is contingent on the other conforming to your beliefs, which is not tolerance at all.

- Your point?!

- I fail to see the issue with that? Muslims want their morality to be the source of their laws, so? I know the West wishes to impose their morality instead. To top it all off, with your blatant hypocrisy the same goes for your country,  half of Americans want the Bible to be a source of law in the US.

- Your source does not support your claim.

Fun versus: 
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.
- Q 8:12:
- What's your point?! Chapter 8 is about the Battle of Badr, when the Quraysh invaded the Muslims in Medina. It's an absolute fact that Fear & Killing are essential practices in battle, else self-annihilation. This just shows the repugnant hypocrisy in your culture, your countries terrorize nations & kill innocents not just militants in battle, yet you have the audacity to retort about this verse. Shameless! 

“I have been made victorious with terror.” 
- Powerful hadith indeed. Among all the generals of history, Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)'s campaigns were the most peaceful, because he won not by military might - for he had virtually none, rather by fear of his enemies. Of the 29 campaigns he led, 18 ended in peaceful terms (by surrender or treaty), 4 ended in skirmish, while only 7 ended in conflict. The total number of participants in all those campaigns from both sides of the conflicts in all ten years of unification was ~160k, while death toll sat at ~970 from both side (370 were Muslim). That's 0.6% death rate among all combatants from both sides. More people died natural deaths on the way than on the actual battles! This becomes more shocking knowing that pre-Islamic Arabs were warriors in perpetual warfare who start wars for the slightest of things, yet they quickly give up fighting the Prophet (pbuh). This wouldn't be possible without fear. 

- No such thing. But by all means, do mention them. Since you seem to know so much about this & all, let's have a debate: {Islam Is (Pro) Not (Con) A Religion of Peace}.

If the core beliefs of Islam were truly peaceful, then Islam extremists should be extremely peaceful. 
- I can't hear you through all this distance away from the moral abyss. The most extreme & violent & cruel society in Human History is your society. What a revolting  history! The amount of cruelty & savagery is unfathomable. Oppression never lasts, even with the best PR. The West is growing more & more incapable, & others are growing more & more capable. There will come a time of reckoning. Your delusional -abyssal- moral high ground does not mean anything. 

The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism, are the fundamentals of Islam. 
- Yes, because they are an obstacle to it.



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#51
BrotherDThomas
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@Yassine


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YASSINE, did your balls extend up into our scrotum again, and then you found them AGAIN to post on this topic 5 DAYS LATER, where before you were posting every day?! Again, this video represents YOU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7ni7zL8qU

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Topic's author
#52
BrotherDThomas
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@Yassine
@Stephen
@Barney
@Bones


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YASSINE,

In your ungodly rhetoric of post #50, YOU FORGOT to address the following sickening situations relative to your despicable faith of Islam! Why? SCARED?!

1. You worship a PEDOPHILE named Muhammed in MARRYING A 6 YEAR OLD GIRL as historically shown where Islam allows marriages essentially to BABIES!

2. The disgusting act of your abhorred faith of Islam in wanting young girls to go through the painful act of genital mutilation to extract their clitoris!

3. The act of Islam in the Qur'an of beating women, and raping captured women!

4. Your Muslim Taliban brutally whipping and killing women for minor offenses by following the loathed Sharia Law as historically shown!


What happened YASSINE?  Why did you RUN AWAY from the main topics of my thread shown above that show your faith to be the most sickening on planet earth for as long as it lasts?!


Here is the irony, I and others within this thread haven't even started on your pathetic faith of Islam yet, where I will continue to show YOU and your fellow cohorts of this Satanic faith, to be chastised to the maximum at all times!  CHAIN UP, MUSLIM FOOL for following such a drastic faith!

#53
Yassine
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@Stephen
@Barney
@BrotherDThomas
@Bones
@drlebronski
- I'm answering the rest on the other post.

To any hell bound Muslim, according to my faith of Christianity, step forth and with a straight face if you can, defend your faith of Islam with your despicable Muhammed and Allah as the foundation thereof!!
- 'Allah' is what Jesus (pbuh) called God, for he spoke Aramaic, as a TRUE CHRISTIAN you're blaspheming against your LORD. ATONE FOR YOUR SINS!

MUHAMMED AS THE FOUNDER OF ISLAM BEING A PEDOPHILE!
- Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) preached mercy & justice & piety. He spread peace & love.  He (pbuh) came to spread mercy, saying: “Be merciful on the earth, and you will be shown mercy from Who is above the heavens.” He came to establish equality & abolish erase racism, in his famous Farewell Sermon he said: “O! people! your Lord is one and your ancestor is one. there is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab, nor of a non-Arab over an Arab, nor of a white over a black, nor a black over a white, except by piety.”

- He taught compassion not just with his people, but also with his enemy, he said, "Whenever you see a funeral procession [even for a jew], you should stand up." They broke his jaw & injured his skull in Uhud, yet 'he was cleaning the blood off his face and saying, "O Allah! Forgive my people, for they do not know”’. He also forgave the man who assaulted his pregnant daughter causing her miscarriage & eventually her death. He forgave a Black slave who assassinated his beloved uncle (he was an orphan).  

- His compassion also shows in his treatment of animals. He warned his companions saying: "Whoever kills a small bird for no just cause, it will beseech Allah on the Day of Resurrection saying: O Lord, so and so killed me for no just cause." & said: "Do not take any living creature as a target." 'When the Prophet marched in his army from al-Araj in the direction of Mecca, he saw a bitch (on the way) whining over its puppies, while they were around her suckling. He commanded one of his men called Ja'il Ibn Suraq'a to stay by its side and guard it so that none of the army would harm it and it puppies'. 

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:
Narrated 'Aisha:
“I used to play with the dolls...
- I assume this dubious quote is reference to Ibn Hajar's Fateh al-Bari, who was writing about different incidents in which Aisha was reported to have played with dolls. The incident on which that particular comment was made relates to Aisha before her marriage. Ibn Hajar also mentions other similar incidents of Aisha making dolls & playing with them with the Prophet (pbuh) at Khaybar & Tabuk, when she was 14 & 18 respectively. Contrary to what your sick mind is espousing, this shows even more the deeply intimate & playful relationship the couple shared. Aisha adored making dolls, the Prophet (pbuh) supported her hobby. It doesn't matter what age you are, it shouldn't prevent you from being playful with your wife, as the Prophet (pbuh) enjoined.

"Men are the caretakers of women, as men have been provisioned by Allah over women and tasked with supporting them financially. And righteous women are devoutly obedient and, when alone, protective of what Allah has entrusted them with. And if you sense disloyalty and ill-conduct from your women, advise them ˹first˺, ˹if they persist,˺ do not share their beds, ˹but if they still persist,˺ then discipline them ˹gently˺. But if they change their ways, seek no means against them. Surely Allah is Most High, All-Great. And if you fear dissension between the two, send an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, Allah will cause it between them. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Aware.." (4:34-35)
- I fixed your verse. I honestly do not get the obsession over this verse, that you had to misquote it to get your point across! Regardless, let's see what's this about. The verse plainly says the following (in this order):
1. Men are the protectors & maintainers of women, by virtue of:
2. Men are made to excel more in that regard (due to physical advantages), & on account of:
3. Men financially supporting women from their wealth, therefore:
4. Women who are pious are those devoutly obedient (to Allah), who guard what Allah has entrusted them with (faithful to their husbands), however:
5. Women who are otherwise -disloyal & disobedient- then advise & remind them [the period prescribed by the jurists is up to 1 month], if they persist:
6. Leave their beds (silent treatment, hoping they may have some time to think & come back), if they persist in their rebellion:
7. Strike them lightly [with a pen or such, & the Prophet (pbuh) said "and the best among you will not hit"], once they relent (at any point):
8. Men have no more right to recourse against them, but if nothing works, then:
9. Striking (lesser harm) is no more sufficient to prevent dissension or divorce (greater harm), therefore:
10. Couples should seek external help, arbitration: one from her side & another from his to intercede between them, so that:
11. Couples may achieve reconciliation.

- If this isn't the most divinely wholesome relationship advice, I don't know what is. Contrastingly, let us see what the Bible says about wives. Not that the Bible has a positive view of wives to begin with, for marriage itself is not desirable & women are seen as impure "Those are those (men) who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.". In another place: "A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man." "the head of the woman is man". Besides all the other places that calls for the slaughter of women, I found this one particularly shocking: "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profanes her father: she shall be burnt with fire.". DAMN! I reckon Christians who attack the Quran in all devious manners must do it to appease their hearts a little about the atrocities in their book, maybe to feel a little better about their faith.

“We went out with Allah’s Messenger on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl (contraception)....
- This one is indeed a favorite of Islamophobites, but I get the obsession at least. This hadith, given that its plain intent is to legitimize contraception, does not seek to contextualize the background story, namely about female captives supposedly being "raped". It's the prefect mark for those with ulterior motives... In truth, this story manifests the greatness of this religion that is Islam.

- Long story short: Quraysh invaded the Muslims in Medina with other tribes, including Bani Mustalaq. The invasion was unsuccessful, so they retreated back to Quraysh. Some months later, Bani Mustalaq gathered again to attack the Muslims. Upon learning of this from his spies, the Prophet (pbuh) led a surprise expedition to counter them before they could reach the city. They met half way in Muraysi, but the enemies were caught off guard & lost the battle quickly, for they didn't expect the Muslims to show up. Some 10 people were killed, & 100 on the site of battle were captured, as prisoners of war (POW). Hence, the aforementioned hadith regarding some of the female POW.

- POW, by Sharia, are to be released is by grace or ransom: "bind captives [of war] firmly, then release them later either by grace or by ransom –until the toils of war have ended." (47:4). The Prophet (pbuh) has also exercised a third option: turning POW to bondage -based on the principle of reciprocity (i.e. if the enemy takes Muslim POW as slaves, Muslims reciprocate). However, this reciprocation only extends in name; in practice Muslims must treat slaves effectively as family -with all rights that entails (i.e. take them in & guarantee financial & social security for them, as they would their children). POW who convert to Islam before bondage are automatically free. Those among the POW who do not wish to stay in bondage must seek Mukataba (contract of emancipation): "If any of your slaves wish to pay for their freedom, make a contract with them accordingly" (24:33), upon signing such contract the slave becomes a mukatab -a freedom- until they fulfill their installments (or ransom themselves). In effect, Islamic bondage is release from internment into social guardianship.

- The issue right off the bat with the hadith is the fact that these female POW were pagan & the men are married Muslims. Any sexual attempts by these men towards the pagan POW is effectively adultery & would've been punishable by death, for marriage/sex with pagans is categorically prohibited in Islam: "do not perform nikah (marriage/intercourse) with pagan women until they believe." (2:221). We know this is not the case! Among the female POW turned into bondage, few converted to Islam then became concubines to those Muslim men, which allowed them to establish an intimate relationship. While others chose ransom, or freedom instead, such as Juwayrya daughter of the chief al-Harith, who"fell to the lot of Thabit. So she entered into an agreement to purchase her freedom." Eventually, the Prophet (pbuh) would offer to pay for her freedom in exchange for marriage, to which she agrees. Upon this marriage, the Muslims "released the captives in their possession and set them free, and said: They are the relatives of the Messenger of Allah by marriage." "One hundred families of Banu al-Mustaliq were set free on account of her." thus both tribes became new allies.

- Comparing this with western practices towards POW, there isn't much to show for. Sharia system allows POW only in legitimate warfare (Just War, i.e. defensive warfare); Western system couldn't care less (all their warfare is seldom non-offensive). Sharia system grants essential rights to POW in grace, ransom or guardianship; the Western system grants none, except by way of extra-national conventions mostly used to compel other nations into submission. Sharia system offers on hand freedom from internment (war prison) by way of repatriation (grace or ransom) or integration (into Muslim families) or even emancipation (by contract or conversion); Western system offers none, POW are perpetually at the mercy of their captors in confinement or torture. This can only make sense in a defensive warfare -where it's in the state's interest to keep enemy's POW in confinement for self-preservation, which is contrary to western practices. Sharia, in contrast, shows mercy even to the POW enemy who came with the intent to massacre your people & pillage your wealth. That is the greatness of Islam. Amen.

- How does Christianity fare against this? Rapping & killing baby girls. Nuff said...

WHO IS THE FIRST MUSLIM TO DEFEND WHAT HAPPENS TO WOMEN IN YOUR ISLAMIC FAITH ABOVE?!
- That has nothing to do with Islam. We pray for all the oppressed peoples of the world, nothing goes unpunished. Allah will punish those who transgress, in this life or the next. If you're concerned about the wellbeing of Muslim women, start by preventing your own mountainous injustices towards them, starting with atonement for all those crimes.




#54
Yassine
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1. You worship a PEDOPHILE named Muhammed in MARRYING A 6 YEAR OLD GIRL as historically shown where
- Pedophilia is defined as "a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children". The facts:
P1. Aisha's first "marriage" was a betrothal, i.e. a promise. The actual marriage was when she was 10 (or 9).
P2. Aisha reached puberty at 9, as she herself said: "a girl who reaches nine years of age [and menstruates] she is a woman"
P3. Therefore, the Prophet (pbuh) waited until Aisha reached maturity to marry her (at 9 or 10).
C1. Therefore, no pedophilia occurred.
P4. The marriage occurred with her consent & her parent's.
C2. Therefore, the marriage is perfectly legal in the US.
[many US states have no minimum age of marriage (like California), or as low as 12 (Massachusetts). A century ago 10 years was the common age of consent (7 in Delaware). In the US alone more than 300k marriages are under-age today.]

- I know Islamophobes are obsessed with this, so they love to keep saying it. In truth, Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is an example for all times, hence we see this even in his marriages. His first marriage was with Khadija at 25 when she was 40 & twice widowed. He stayed loyal to her until her death, despite this going against the customs of the time, exemplifying monogamy. With the exception of Aisha who was virgin, all his other wives were windowed &/or divorcees -some even older than him, normalizing thus marrying widows & divorcees. Among the 12 he married in his life, 3 were actually older than him (by 15, 30, & 9 years respectively), & with others across all age groups from 9 to 80. The difference of age between his oldest wife (Sawda) & youngest wife (Safya) upon death was 63 years (or 73). His marriages were four types: 1. Family marriage from which he had all his daughters (he had no sons), with Khadija. 2. Affinity marriages, he married the daughters of his closest friends (Aisha & Hafsa) & married his daughters to them, all of whom (Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman, Ali) became his successors. 3. Alliance marriages, with daughters of leaders of other tribes to establish alliances. 4. Charity marriages, destitute widows or divorcees who needed care, such as Sawda & Rayhana.

- Marriage upon puberty was the norm in Arabia (& most pre-post-modern societies), where the average lifespan was around 30 years. You reach puberty, you start your family! Aisha herself was betrothed to someone else (Adiy) before the Prophet (pbuh). The Prophet's own daughters married at 8, 11 & 15. Early marriages were (& still are) commonplace in much of the world. In victorian Europe, 7 was the age of grooming for girls to find suiters. Medieval Europe saw girls often married between 5 & 10. A widowed girl in 1800s Scotland could not inherit from her deceased husband until she reaches the age of 9, as the minimum age of marriage was set at 7. The great exception is the post-modern West, which substituted chastity laws for statutory consent laws. The great irony here, there is no minimum age for sexual intercourse in the West. Kids's first sexual acts are often reported as young as 8 years old. It's ok to have sex as kids, just not marriage. They abhor intimacy in a lawful marriage built on family & commitment among youngs, hasten to stifle it under the pretext of "abuse", yet they rush to advertise -out of wedlock- sexuality & promiscuity among children. That is the West, they adore perversion & glorify it, yet they abhor decency & attack it.

- The Prophet (pbuh) marriage with Aisha was a blessed union based on love. Aisha was his best-friend's daughter, the marriage just brought the families closer. They both were devoutly committed to each-other, we can see that clearly in their love story. When asked "Who is the most beloved person to you?" He said, " Aisha", & she used to call him: “My beloved”. The Prophet (pbuh) also used to say, "the superiority of Aisha to other ladies is like the superiority of Tharid to other kinds of food.". Aisha reported “I would eat flesh from a bone, then hand it over to the Prophet and he would put his mouth where I had put my mouth: I would drink, then hand it over to him, and he would put his mouth where I drank.”, which shows the attachment they shared. In his final sickness, he said to Aisha "My death is alleviated for I have seen you with me in Paradise”. He died on her lap & was buried in her room. This is an exemplary story of true love, not the sexual infatuations predominant in the West.

- What is the legacy of this "horrible" marriage you so profess? Under the tutelage of the Prophet (pbuh), Aisha will grow to be the most influential woman in Islamic history: a primary advisor for the Caliphs, a general, a grand Mufti of the Muslim empire & its most distinguished scholar. Urwah Ibn Zubar (founder of the Athari school of thought), one of her ~700 students said: “I have never witnessed someone as knowledgeable about the Quran, Inheritance arithmetics, what is lawful and what is unlawful, Jurisprudence, Medicine, Poetry, History of Arabs, or Genealogy as Aisha”. Az-Zuhri (the imperial savant of the Umayyad empire) said: “If the knowledge of all women of this Ummah was accumulated, Aisha’s knowledge will outclass it”. What have you done in your life?!

Islam allows marriages essentially to BABIES!
- You're conflating Christianity with Islam. Yours TRUE CHRISTIAN must know that in your Bible Mary was 12 when she married Joseph who was 90 at the time, he was 78 years older than her... Child marriage & pedophilia, even by coercion, is explicitly sanctioned in your Bible, "And now, slay every male among the infants, indeed, slay every woman knowing a man by the lying of a male, and all the infants among the women who have not known the lying of a male you have kept alive for yourselves." (Numbers 13:17-18). How disgusting! Christianity allows marriages with babies! As a TRUE CHRISTIAN you're speaking against the clear directives of your book, you must repent. 

2. The disgusting act of your abhorred faith of Islam in wanting young girls to go through the painful act of genital mutilation to extract their clitoris!
- Stop lying. This actually reminds me of the painful "husband's stitch" where they tightened American women's vaginas to increase pleasure for their husbands, just a couple decades ago. Thankfully it was banned. They do this in Africa, practice called Khitan Firawni (pharaonic excision), which predates Islam, aimed at preventing women from having sex by sealing their vaginas.

- This is funny, but Islamic female circumcision is actually very popular in the West. The full version of the hadith is: "trim (khifad) but do not cut, for it is easier on the eyes and more pleasurable to the husband (in intercourse)". Khifad (female circumcision in Sharia) is defined as, genital hood reduction (vaginal rejuvenation). These procedures are exponentially rising in popularity in the West. It has become a multi-billion dollar business, doubling five times just in the last four years; the US alone comprising some 40% of global market share. Yet again, the Prophet (pbuh) is teaching the West how to live, after much resistance. Just wait a couple decades when this becomes norm, they will drop the FGM propaganda.

3. The act of Islam in the Qur'an of beating women, and raping captured women!
- No faith nor creed has honored women as Islam did: "Women have rights similar to those of men equitably" (2:228). Islam granted women equitable rights to men as inviolable human beings guaranteed six sacred rights (faith, self, reason, family, property & honor). Women, complementarily to Men, are deemed morally (ma'nawi) efficient albeit materially (madi) deficient, thus granted material endowment by Sharia. A woman is assured material security by Sharia, mandated on her father or husband or brother or son (even if she is wealthy). As an inheritor she gets 8/10 shares of inheritance. She gets twice as the man from blood-money. As a subject she does not pay any Zakat (tax) on her jewelry & gold & silver, as opposed to the man. She gets alimony from her ex. As a mother she has priority rights over the father -including custody. She is exempt from participating in defense... etc. No such privileges are accorded to women in the West! 

- Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) honored women more than any other in history. Upon his death bed he insisted on reminding us be kind to women, "the last of his advice of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) three things he kept repeating until his tongue stammered and his speech faded, he kept saying, [...] Allah Allah [fear God] for your women [...]". He (pbuh) also honored women by honoring those who honor them, saying: "The most perfect man in his faith among the believers is the one whose behavior is most excellent; and the best of you are those who are the best to their wives.". Emphasizing the equity between men & women, he said: “Verily, women are but the equivalent of men. Those honorable among men will honor them, and those ignoble among men will dishonor them”. Even in the small things, the Prophet (pbuh) enjoined Muslim to be kind to their wives, saying: “There is a reward for a man who offers his wife a drink”,  &: “The act of putting a bite into your wife’s mouth is a charitable deed”. Among his advices to believers is to show forebearance  & fairness ”A believer must not hate his wife ; if he dislikes one of her qualities, he will be pleased with another”, & respect their privacy : "[he] forbade that a man should come to his family like (an unexpected) night visitor doubting their fidelity and spying into their lapses."

- As to your fallacious claims, I addressed in the other post.

4. Your Muslim Taliban brutally whipping and killing women for minor offenses by following the loathed Sharia Law as historically shown!
- Have some shame. You do this to millions of Muslims, kill innocents, bomb, burn alive, maim, rape, humiliate & torture them for greed & sheer aggression. Disgusting! It's funny how your media portrays themselves as the good guys with people they invade & massacre. It's funnier how you have countless more such crimes in your countries, the most violent & degenerate societies in the world. We watch American crime shows... The US has more than 1 per 100,000 serial killers, that 1 per small town in the country. More than 1 mass killing per day, that's more than the rest of the world combined. 6% report sexual abuse from family. A third of college girls report sexual abuse. Every week there is a story about a parent killing their children, a kidnapped girl who's raped & dumped, a little girl f*cked & impregnated by her father, another dismembered out of jealousy & greed... it's truly disturbing. 

What happened YASSINE?  Why did you RUN AWAY from the main topics of my thread shown above that show your faith to be the most sickening on planet earth for as long as it lasts?!
- That is yours, that is.

Here is the irony, I and others within this thread haven't even started on your pathetic faith of Islam yet, where I will continue to show YOU and your fellow cohorts of this Satanic faith, to be chastised to the maximum at all times!  CHAIN UP, MUSLIM FOOL for following such a drastic faith!
- Says the chicklet who runs from debate like chased gazelle.

#55
Yassine
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I am middle eastern and i am embarrassed to share the same genes as these people
- That's just sad. Your ancestors conquered the world, sacrificed their lives to spread justice & peace, founded great empires, inaugurated great civilizations of knowledge & science, & here you are lamenting!

many muslims and middle easterners are anti white and seek to take over europe with increasing birth-rates, although this isn't true for persians (iranians), most of the antiwhite middle easterners are either arabs or turks.
- You will never be one of them, stick to your people. Muslims conquered the Iberian Peninsula & France all the way to Tour in the west & Metz to the east, south Italy, Sicily & the islands; then the Balkans, all the way to Russia to the east & Slovenia to the west. A third of Europe one time or another was Muslim land, before Muslims were purged & massacred from their lands in both western Europe & eastern Europe. I don't see you complaining about Europeans colonizing the world, enslaving half & killing the other half. 

whats wrong with that? The US in 1960s was the same
- The US is your criterion? They already lost all family values. 

We're not living in the 1960's. The fact that moderate Muslims hold this ancient belief directly because of their faith should be a concern.
- Concern yourself with your own decadent society, a nation of degeneracy. Do not fret, it is inevitable. Nations rise, they prosper, they indulge, they decade, they fall. This is a universal truth of History. The West is simply in its age of decadence, a sign of its imminent fall. It happened to everyone, it happened to Muslims too.

#56
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lol you destroyed him im guessing brotherdthomas is going to respond with you being unholy
#57
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Did you know that the Prophet Muhammad could not read or write?
#58
Yassine
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lol you destroyed him im guessing brotherdthomas is going to respond with you being unholy
- I was going to be cheeky & dismissive, but I opted otherwise. Thanks.

Did you know that the Prophet Muhammad could not read or write?
- That's true, indeed. What might be the point though?

#59
Yassine
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Yes, it took me all of my childhood to realize this. Islam leaves scant little to those dipping their toes outside of its fold.
- Ahem, degeneracy. Yes.

Submission requires strict observance of its tenets. While mere ignorance is excused, wilful disobedience is punished. I don't agree with this lifestyle. 
- I see you're Christian?!

For illustration purposes, the fractured Islamic parties in Indonesia often occupy themselves with rules of what women should wear. I'm pretty sure Iraq's leadership is also occupied with the same thing. Really, across muslim countries, this sounds like a trivial pursuit. In my opinion, I would go insane listening to similar versions of the same fundamentalist rule.
- Degeneracy again, yeah. It's all about that.

Then again, Im told to do it for the sake of the afterlife! But no, I vehemently disagree.
- It's about degeneracy. Indeed
#60
Yassine
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I am a feminist, which means I believe women are just as deserving of self-determination as men and men's equals in any legal, political, or societal sense.
- There it is. The holy grail of Feminism, or rather menslavism. That distinction assumes the intrinsic nature of Men is superior to that of Women. Such that, value is measured from a male perspective, that women need to climb to the masculine plain & abandon the feminine plain to find fulfillment. Disgusting! Men & Women share humanity yet differ in gender & role. Equality between Men & Women is, henceforth, necessarily, injustice to at least one.

I think our most fundamental  human responsibility is to thoughtfully caretake the richness of life on earth and that the proper care and education of children must be the number one priority of that inheritance and that our whole economic outlook as humans should be restructured to reflect the value of that priority and duty.
- I agree, but this sounds closest to Sharia & the farthest thing from Feminism.

To that end, women as the babymakers and the more biologically driven caregivers live closer to our true economic priorities than men do and we men  make a mistake when we fail to respect women's superior compassion and sense of community in our decision-making. Women understand better than men the whole point of civilization as a function of women's role in human reproduction and our society should reflect  and include a feminine perspective in all things.
- You seem to be saying things & their contrary. I know this is inexistent in the West. Can you elaborate on what all this entails.

I am also a liberal, which means I believe that human freedom and equality ought to be prioritized over the preservation of wealth and property and even tradition, as important as all those thing are to humanity.
- Are you an Anarchist? You just contradicted what you said earlier.

So I don't believe women owe men their obedience.  If anything, I think men ought to (slightly) defer to women as the better informed regarding humanity's top priority, which is the care and education of the next generation.
- Rectification: you don't believe wives owe husbands obedience. Some people may mistake what you said to be calling for women to disobey their bosses.

But the core of liberalism is also a profound respect for other people's belief and I'm not much down for forums where we sit out around and trash other people's religion, particularly since we are fairly likely to be ill-informed or wholly  ignorant about the nature of other people's religion and particularly  in cases where religions have a long history of wisdom and good deeds, as is true of all major religions.
- Although all this sounds nice & all, it's hallow. The first half of your statement contradicts the latter. Liberalism does not condone respect for other's beliefs. Fancy labels aside, Liberalism is primarily about personal whims in its core, aka degeneracy. Liberalism is the promotion & protection of individualistic choices sans community -the redirection of the individual's care from community to state, thus the censor of communal values -which are effectively religious values- in favor of idolization of individual whims. It is not a coincidence that more liberal societies espouse widespread disintegration of religion & breakdown of family following an explosion of degeneracy.

When I was in college, I took a job for some minor Saudi princeling who was blind and pursuing a doctorate in Lexicography- an insanely ambitious pursuit.  My incredibly dull but good-paying job was to read pages and pages of dictionary entries to him, carefully describing every notation from a wide variety of dictionaries. I am pretty deaf but years of speech therapy has made me very good at reading things out loud. 

I spent many hours at the Prince's nice house and his wife was always there in full niqab but she never spoke. If we walked into a room where she was she would immediately leave without comment.  Her husband never introduced her or spoke of her in all my time there.  One day, he called to say my services were no longer required and I never saw him again.

I did, however, meet his wife once more at a grocery store on the other side of town months later.  She knew me by name and had to introduce herself because I'd never seen her face.  She was wearing a skirt and a bedazzled t-shirt and she was surprisingly young and beautiful considering what a fat toad the princeling had been.  She was funny and spoke perfect English and she was utterly contemptuous of her husband.  She explained that I'd been fired because her husband learned that I lived with a woman unmarried (of course he didn't know that I was gay but I'm sure that would have been equal cause for termination). 

She explained without prompting that she hated her role and restrictions in Arab society and only in this town where nobody knew  her could she go out once in a while and participate in society like a normal, pretty girl laughing and flirting and talking shit about her husband. She was delightful, and I often think about how much that fat prince was missing out on because he treated that pretty girl like an object to be owned instead of woman to be adored.  Ironically,  because of  his religiously rigorous possessiveness, strangers like me got to meet and enjoy the best of his wife while he never would- not just denying himself the pleasure of her company but kind of cluelessly self-cuckolding in the name of God.
- Why does every westerner & his cat have the same story to tell about that Muslim woman. They've all been to Saudi somehow. Regardless of the truth of this tale, this yet again proves my suspicions. You adore degeneracy, yet you abhor decency. A slut who intermingles with strange men she doesn't belong with & pleasure them while being unfaithful to the one she's married to is an example to follow, but a modest woman who's devoted to her husband & decent towards strange men is just an object, unacceptable to the degenerate mind. What a disgusting story. 

This experience has informed my assumptions about women in strict Islamic societies more than any other.
- You couldn't have said a more typical thing from a westerner. For centuries they fantasized about unveiling Muslim women, even going as far as hiring prostitutes, putting them in cages & painting them in the most humiliating fashion, to appease their lustful tyranny, to display the heroism of the White man freeing the poor Muslim woman who's oppressed by these vile brown men, while at the same time mass raping them, burning their schools & taking their rights. Your slander of Muslim women is not different. It's all about degeneracy, nothing else. A Muslim woman is good when she is a degenerate, nothing else she does matters.

Really good read. I think she probably cherishes that memory more than her whole experience at Saudi Arabia. I never went through what she went through so this is just my speculation since I lived most of my life in an equally conservative muslim society. 
- Didn't I tell you, it's all about degeneracy. I very much doubt you will be ok with your wife doing this. I know your culture.

Saudi Arabia's main jurisprudence (Hanbali) is not far off from other muslim countries. I'd say muslims split along cultural lines so I can reasonably expect other strict Islamic countries to have similar cases of abuse towards women. I do think they differ in manners of expression. For example, indonesians are more likely to throw in hunger deprivation than social deprivation.
- Wow! Fidelity is abuse & Infidelity is freedom from abuse. So disgusting! You've strayed too far from your people.