HELL BOUND MUSLIMS, TRY TO DEFEND ISLAM AGAINST WOMEN!

Author: BrotherDThomas

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#61
BrotherDThomas
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@Yassine


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Yassine,

YOUR QUOTE: " 'Allah' is what Jesus (pbuh) called God, for he spoke Aramaic, as a TRUE CHRISTIAN you're blaspheming against your LORD. ATONE FOR YOUR SINS!"

Before I bloody you up again, therefore within your quote above, what do you truly mean?  Are you saying that Jesus and Allah are different gods, or that Jesus and Allah are the same god along with the Hebrew Yahweh god as well?  

Furthermore, I believe you stated somewhere in our discussion, or another discussion with some other member, that Islam is the religion of peace?  Yes or no?

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#62
BrotherDThomas
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drlebronski,

YOUR QUOTE: "lol you destroyed him im guessing brotherdthomas is going to respond with you being unholy"

I suggest that since you have nothing to say upon this forum, except for "one sentence" responses to other members posts and threads, that you continue to remain upon the porch as a little puppy. Therefore you can watch the "big dogs play," where you can only wish to join us, understood wannabe? Yeah, you do.

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#63
Yassine
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@BrotherDThomas

YOUR QUOTE: " 'Allah' is what Jesus (pbuh) called God, for he spoke Aramaic, as a TRUE CHRISTIAN you're blaspheming against your LORD. ATONE FOR YOUR SINS!"
- Have you ATONED FOR YOUR SINS?

Before I bloody you up again, therefore within your quote above, what do you truly mean?  Are you saying that Jesus and Allah are different gods, or that Jesus and Allah are the same god along with the Hebrew Yahweh god as well?  
- Ask him after you die. Just make sure to ATONE FOR YOUR SINS first.

Furthermore, I believe you stated somewhere in our discussion, or another discussion with some other member, that Islam is the religion of peace?  Yes or no?
- Absolutely. Why? You wish to debate that?


#64
MarkWebberFan
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@Yassine
There's a lot to unpack in your posts. For the record, I think you seem to be partaking in a sort of generalized rejection of the west. Although I'm interested in what an arab (than indonesian) would say about that, I still think your gigantic post isn't any different than other islamic clerics that I've seen.

You're beating a dead horse. You're free to suggest that I've strayed too far away from my Buginese roots. I could easily claim that I am a singaporean amoi and you'll even suggest the exact opposite. how very convenient of islam. Not withstanding the amount of muslim-to-muslim discrimination between indonesians and arabs, I can see that this tale of islam is predictably old. Case in point: my parents had done the exact same thing few years ago. I'll be honest now since you've been polite to me (as Safalcon did) in the past: I have no intention to pursue this along the lines of a generalized rejection. I have no intention of pursuing this along the lines of assimilation or reversion of either side; the waves have settled and I have moved on.

For a short statement of my issue with your post, I don't think you've actually looked at what "degeneracy" actually means. You're inferring  degeneracy for granted, which is understandable given how islam is currently structured. And by suggesting that, you've essentially outlined the exact issue I have with islam: its clear, fanatical in-group favoritism at the cost of those who chose a different life. Islam is willing to converse with me in so far as I play-pretend and apologize for harmlessly choosing a different life. To do otherwise is to do exactly what you've done: accuse normal people like me of treason, blesphemy and defilement of islam. I'm definitely aware of the "public sphere" that clerics warn me and my family to safeguard wholeheartedly, especially against muslim enemies. That said, generally speaking, I don't see how you can beat the "freedom to choose/speak/read" lifestyle that the west offers. I'm betting that the middle east (like inonesia) has a tight control over its distribution of literature; the muslim countries are a joke. Practically, the countries are a mess and you should sort them out yourselves before critiquing the west. My opinion.
#65
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@MarkWebberFan
Interesting post, not knowing much of Islam myself, it's an addition to my knowledge, to hear people speak their experiences, opinions of it. Positive, negative, or neutral.

To be fair, most everyone has values, and tends to consider 'something degenerate.

One might argue the West makes 'too much of an effort to appease the outgroup.

A tent too large, trying to envelop everyone it can, replacing structure with fabric, that it's unable to support itself.

Though I worry I'm growing xenophobic, in my views.
#66
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@Lemming
It doesn't end there. If you evaluate the muslim countries under some form of sharia, the Inheritance laws are incredibly punishing for non-muslim minorites and if you choose to marry a muslim whilst secretly retaining your atheist/catholic/Buddhist belief, you'll inevitably told to be buried alongside your "muslim brothers". No amount of petition/work will help you settle your grave alongside your deceased non-muslim parents. In addition, your properties will be given to muslim in-laws, rather than your own flesh and blood. Good luck with that level of freedom. I could survive in a fundamentalist society, so long as they don't pervert their way into banning western literature. That would be the final straw imho.

That aside, thanks for the compliment

#67
Lemming
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@MarkWebberFan
I can appreciate tribalism in others, though of course prefer my own.
The value of one's people, blood, genetics, culture.
Wanting them to continue, honoring one's ancestors.

Though it 'does sound stifling.
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#68
BrotherDThomas
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@Yassine

Yassine,

FOR THE SECOND TIME SUBSEQUENT TO POST #61 BEING THE FIRST TIME WHERE YOU DID NOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS:  Are you saying that Jesus and Allah are different gods, or that Jesus and Allah are the same god along with the Hebrew Yahweh god as well?  

Now, if you need help in answering this very simple question, then ask one of your equally Hell bound Muslims, okay?

BEGIN:

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#69
Yassine
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@MarkWebberFan
There's a lot to unpack in your posts. For the record, I think you seem to be partaking in a sort of generalized rejection of the west.
- Not really. It's a case to case basis. If you generalize 'Islam' I will generalize 'West'. If you say 'religion Islam' I will respond 'Christianity' 'Secularism'... depending... If you say 'this particular Muslim country' I will respond 'France'. If you say 'this particular Muslim' I will respond 'this American'. This applies either ways, disparaging or praise. It's just so that most people here hate Islam, so that's the impression they will get from me. I've also read dozens of Western authors, from Aristotle to Kant to Hume to Hugo to Toynbee to Shaw to Chomsky & many others. Though coming from the background I come from, reading Fakhrdeen Razi & Subki & Ghazali... I'm not as impressed. But indeed, I do have an extreme bias against the West as a polity, given I read their abominable vomit inducing history. You can't come back from that.

Although I'm interested in what an arab (than indonesian) would say about that,
- Ask away.

I still think your gigantic post isn't any different than other islamic clerics that I've seen.
- Which post is that?

You're beating a dead horse.
- It's a debate website. I'm here to beat people.

You're free to suggest that I've strayed too far away from my Buginese roots. I could easily claim that I am a singaporean amoi and you'll even suggest the exact opposite. how very convenient of islam.
- I don't see the connection at all... Not everything that moves must relate to Islam! 

Not withstanding the amount of muslim-to-muslim discrimination between indonesians and arabs, I can see that this tale of islam is predictably old. Case in point: my parents had done the exact same thing few years ago. I'll be honest now since you've been polite to me (as Safalcon did) in the past: I have no intention to pursue this along the lines of a generalized rejection. I have no intention of pursuing this along the lines of assimilation or reversion of either side; the waves have settled and I have moved on.
- It's a question of Power. Power induces submission, "powerful therefore right". Oppression induces resistance. It's human nature to protest injustice. Thus, when you have both, an Oppressive Power, it induces conflicting reactions, some will submit & emulate, while others will protest & reject. The West has been hugely dominant last century while also causing immense injustice. It's only natural to expect these reactions. Though, power disappears but grievances about injustice never do, not here & not in the next life. That said, as a Muslim we submit to Allah alone, for Power is Allah's alone. It doesn't matter who's dominant, that should not shake the faith of a Muslim into submission. The universe is too big & time is too infinite for the West to mean anything, or anything on this insignificant Earth. In that respect, I don't reject the West or submit to them. Whatever is conform to Islam I take, whatever doesn't I leave.

For a short statement of my issue with your post, I don't think you've actually looked at what "degeneracy" actually means. You're inferring  degeneracy for granted, which is understandable given how islam is currently structured. And by suggesting that, you've essentially outlined the exact issue I have with islam: its clear, fanatical in-group favoritism at the cost of those who chose a different life.
- I particularly mean by degeneracy Fisq, which means public display of indecency. In-group "favoritism" applies to any & every ideology, by definition. Beliefs are exclusive. That said, we are resurrected solo, we face Allah as individuals, not groups. To each his journey with Allah, & to each his deeds. Degeneracy is the end of society. Every civilization, every state, every nation in human history fell after decadence. When societies stabilize, they work & save, their elite seek luxury, which drives innovation & art, which further expands luxury, which spur indulgence, indulgence leads to decadence, decadence corrupts societies, corruption leads to oppression, thus collapse. The West is decadent, it's in the brink of collapse. 

Islam is willing to converse with me in so far as I play-pretend and apologize for harmlessly choosing a different life. To do otherwise is to do exactly what you've done: accuse normal people like me of treason, blesphemy and defilement of islam. I'm definitely aware of the "public sphere" that clerics warn me and my family to safeguard wholeheartedly, especially against muslim enemies.
- I don't know where you're coming from. Clearly you have a story to tell. This is a debate website, we are here to argue ideas. Islam in essence is about submission to Allah, not about some 'Islam' concept. An apparent sinner can be better in the eyes of God than an apparent pious person. It's about the heart, having humility & gratitude toward Allah & recognizing one's sins & shortcomings. It's a personal relationship between a person & his Lord. What you're taking about is "social Islam", which is a consequent of society, like any other.

That said, generally speaking, I don't see how you can beat the "freedom to choose/speak/read" lifestyle that the west offers.
- Propaganda. Reality is otherwise. There is very little freedom to do anything in the West, except in self-gratification (aka degeneracy), then it's virtually limitless. Everything is brutally imposed on you, but you don't feel it, because even that feeling is brutally imposed on you with ceaseless indoctrination & propaganda. If you disagree, show me a single thing that is not "degeneracy" you have freedom in in the West. I've worked in many Muslim & European countries. I've never paid taxes in Muslim countries. In Europe you get screwed every which way by the state they know everything you do & they take everything they want from you. In many Muslim countries I can talk to the other party & establish a contract according to our shared morality, this is impossible in any western country. I can not practice 90% (if not 99%) of my faith in a Western country. Everything is imposed on you by force of law, & an ocean of propaganda of "freedom" for make-belief. The communists did the same, & were arguably more successful. I can't talk freely about my opinions or feelings as I would in a Muslim country, otherwise chastised or even kicked out. The only thing you can talk about freely in the West same is degeneracy. You can't chose to study what you wish or teach what you wish in the West. You'll never get there. Why don't you go to western university & start a Sharia course? Or something like Intelligent Design? As I said, pure propaganda.

I'm betting that the middle east (like inonesia) has a tight control over its distribution of literature; the muslim countries are a joke. Practically, the countries are a mess and you should sort them out yourselves before critiquing the west. My opinion.
- You have it backwards. The West controls education in Muslim countries, though various nasty conventions. They impose their ways on the world. They have much worse restriction of literature too. They just have better PR. Some Muslim countries are catching up on that. They realize you just to lie & promote big beautiful labels & do what you want behind the scenes. In truth, no state allows what undermines it, wether speech or literature. That's self-destruction. It's just propaganda is a power tool. I recommend Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent, 



#70
Yassine
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@Lemming
@MarkWebberFan
It doesn't end there. If you evaluate the muslim countries under some form of sharia, the Inheritance laws are incredibly punishing for non-muslim minorites
- If what you're saying is true, then this is probably an issue in Indonesia, it's not in the Middle East. On the contrary, Muslim countries in the ME, despite all their shortcomings, offer a lot of freedom of practice to the minorities therein. They have Muslim courts, Christian courts & secular courts in Lebanon or Egypt, you're free to chose which you want to settle your affairs in. This much freedom isn't offered in any western country. On the contrary, inheritance laws are incredibly punishing for Muslim minorities in the West. My friend's ex-coworker is in huge debt because his stepmom took all the money his dad left him. If I'm not mistaken I think he is in prison. 

and if you choose to marry a muslim whilst secretly retaining your atheist/catholic/Buddhist belief, you'll inevitably told to be buried alongside your "muslim brothers". No amount of petition/work will help you settle your grave alongside your deceased non-muslim parents.
- Different countries have different laws regarding burial rights. Muslims in Europe find it hopelessly hard to be buried where they want, in Muslim cemeteries, if they are even allowed to have any. You're sensationalizing everything, & just proving how worse the West is in comparison.

In addition, your properties will be given to muslim in-laws, rather than your own flesh and blood. Good luck with that level of freedom.
- Dude, what the f are you talking about?! You make sound like the West is some heaven. Good luck getting your Islamic inheritance in a Western country, it's impossible. Else, they literally send you to prison. So much for freedom. You're either too delusional or too bullshitting.

I could survive in a fundamentalist society, so long as they don't pervert their way into banning western literature. That would be the final straw imho.
- Again, what the flying f are you talking about?! We live in the age of internet, there is no such thing as banning literature.



#71
Lemming
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@Yassine
I'd have to read more, to have a stronger opinion.
#72
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@BrotherDThomas
Islam is not as bad as Christianity.  

Christianity is a story that has warped people's brains and minds and families. 

Look at you. You are the biggest proof that Christianity is evil and needs to be wiped of the face of the planet.  

Islam is a religion of peace.  You simply regurgitate second hand information as though it is truth.  

And you interpret it through the lens of a 21st century person.  

Yassine has destroyed you so many times.  He is a much better soldier of rhetoric than you. 

Little wonder that Islam is a faster growing religion than your pathetic one.  

So keep running - all the way back to your little hamlet where you can play with your pet pigs.  


#73
Lemming
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@Timid8967
I disagree with BrotherDThomas, being proof of Christianity's 'supposed evil.

Individuals of many beliefs exist, good and bad.

Times of regions of beliefs, good and bad, exist.
#74
Reece101
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@Aryanman
I don't see anything wrong with that traditional belief
Why not?
#75
Timid8967
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@BrotherDThomas
FOR THE SECOND TIME SUBSEQUENT TO POST #61 BEING THE FIRST TIME WHERE YOU DID NOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS:  Are you saying that Jesus and Allah are different gods, or that Jesus and Allah are the same god along with the Hebrew Yahweh god as well?  

Now, if you need help in answering this very simple question, then ask one of your equally Hell bound Muslims, okay?

BDT - amazing as your foolishness is - let me remind you - "THERE ARE NO GODS"!   Can you read? Gods are a figment of little tiny brains. God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs  Asking Yassine whether Jesus and Allah are different or the same is almost the funniest thing I have read today.  Mind you I asked a similar question a while ago - not in relation to Jesus - but to the Jewish God. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6132/post-links/265651.  No one really answered that question satisfactorily. Lots of opinions though. 

Jesus was not born until the 1st Century. Date of birth of Jesus - Wikipedia If that is true, which many people doubt, he was only a man, unless gods can be born. But likely, he is a myth.  In either event, the Muslims would probably see Allah more in the line with the Jewish god.  You do realize Brother, Mr Religious man, that Muslims do not believe in your trinitarian god. Muslims do happen to believe that Abraham's god is there god. But unless you can't figure it out, Jesus came a heck of a time later.  So it would be impossible for Muslims to believe Jesus is Allah.  Muslims Believe in One God - Allah - Islam Faith

Muslims do believe Jesus is the messiah.  And a prophet.  Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia I think they are wrong on many counts. Firstly, however, would be the fact that prophets tell the future. This implies a supernatural understanding of the world - including a deterministic position. It is impossible to tell the future unless it is fixed already.  This also implies a god.  Yet, since there is no god, there is no supernaturalism, therefore no prophets. God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs So if Jesus did live - which is unlikely, then he could not have been a prophet. And therefore the Muslims are incorrect. 

You on the other hand believe in god. Please prove that god exists. It is for the theist to prove that god exists.  When you are ready, please begin:

Unless of course - you are a charade and making it all up.  Or unless you are going to run away from me.  You are not going to run away from this question are you? Stephen has already done that.  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6355/post-links/275404  and https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6355/post-links/276000.  

Both of you are atheists pretending to be theists.  What a coincidence! Or is it? Both of you must realize the burden of proof on you is to prove that god exists. Please man up. If you are a man of course.  Begin - the whole forum is waiting for you. 
#76
Timid8967
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@Lemming
I disagree with BrotherDThomas, being proof of Christianity's 'supposed evil.

Individuals of many beliefs exist, good and bad.

Times of regions of beliefs, good and bad, exist.
BrotherDThomas is a christian, isn't he? Not only a christian but a leader - self proclaimed bus evangelist according to his page.  

He wears a robe and a necktie confirming his religion. Surely he is the paradigm example of a true christian.  I have read many times his damnation of all other alleged christians, like ethang, pga.o, tradesertc, etc.  

And what he writes is pretty compelling.  He quotes the bible in the OT and in the NT.  the god of christianity is evil and brother is a perfect example of the god he follows.    He is simply being consistent - a good virtue if ever there was one.  Of course - I am asking him to prove god exists - he keeps running away from that question.  

I won't accept that there is no true scotsman.  Brother is an admitted christian leader.  He must produce evidence that his god exists. Or he must admit his charade. 
#77
Lemming
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@Timid8967
I don't 'know, who or what, BrotherDThomas is.
Though I 'vaguely know what he self proclaims.
I say 'vaguely, because I don't may much mind to people I find incoherent, abusive, insulting.

"Robe and a necktie" - Timid8967
What robe and necktie?

I won't accept that there is no true scotsman. - Timid8967
There are criminals of every nation, doesn't mean every nation is naught but criminals.

The god of Christianity is evil and brother is a perfect example of the god he follows.  - Timid8967
Shall I judge Islam by suicide bombers, child IEDs, Female genital mutilation in India - Wikipedia, so on so forth?

All Atheists by the French's 'Reason and Reign of Terror, Stalin and his repression?

I disagree with the idea of BrotherDThomas representing all Christians of their religion.

I don't view Stephen/Willows | Debate.org, I 'think he's Willows | Debate.org, as well.
But anyway, I don't view that guy as a representative of all atheists 'either.
I don't even spare him 'much mind, as I find his arguments unworthy of consideration, or 'attention.

Wylted, going on and on about Jews, 'also unworthy of being representative of all Christian's in my mind.
#78
Timid8967
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@Lemming
I don't 'know, who or what, BrotherDThomas is.
Though I 'vaguely know what he self proclaims.
I say 'vaguely, because I don't may much mind to people I find incoherent, abusive, insulting.
Ok. I am pleased to see others see his abuse and insults as well.  Yet, I don't understand why they don't call out his charade. 


"Robe and a necktie" - Timid8967
What robe and necktie?
Look at his avatar.  I did again and guess what I see just a coat jacket. I must've be seeing things.  Sorry. I think it is just his abrasive and overbearing manner that reminded me of every catholic priest I have ever met. But concede that I have overstated his clothing and therefore authority. 

I won't accept that there is no true scotsman. - Timid8967
There are criminals of every nation, doesn't mean every nation is naught but criminals.
True. But surely you would agree that some christian somewhere is a representative of christianity? Why can't the brother be that paradigm example?


The god of Christianity is evil and brother is a perfect example of the god he follows.  - Timid8967
Shall I judge Islam by suicide bombers, child IEDs, Female genital mutilation in India - Wikipedia, so on so forth?
If not so, then how so? If the brother is putting himself out there as the only true christian on this site, surely he must be representative of some form of christianity. I think that if brother is a christian he is a good reason not be to be one and to think that christians are evil. 

All Atheists by the French's 'Reason and Reign of Terror, Stalin and his repression?
But athiests are a dime a dozen.  They all have different views - there one common denominator is a disbelief in god. christians purport that they all believe the same thing because they all follow the same book and same god. 

I disagree with the idea of BrotherDThomas representing all Christians of their religion.
Why? What part of Christianity does he not represent?


I don't view Stephen/Willows | Debate.org, I 'think he's Willows | Debate.org, as well.
But anyway, I don't view that guy as a representative of all atheists 'either.
I don't even spare him 'much mind, as I find his arguments unworthy of consideration, or 'attention.
Are you suggesting that stephen is willows? That is funny.  I have heard about willows but never had anything to do with him. Stephen says he is not an atheist. he says he is a theist.  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6355/post-links/273900  Actually he looks quite confused. And his response is so defensive - he might actually believe it. I would encourage you to read his words.  


Wylted, going on and on about Jews, 'also unworthy of being representative of all Christian's in my mind.
I don't know much about wylted. Is he a christian too? Oh yes, I saw his racist thread.  And isn't this just the point - there does not seem to be too many good christians on this site. ethang is not around. PGA2.0 seems to have disapeared.  tradesecret seems to be a stirrer.  

If there were better examples - then perhaps I might take a different view. 




#79
Lemming
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@Timid8967
Hm, glancing more about Stephens posts, perhaps I am mistaken of suspecting him to be Willows | Debate.org.
I forget what piece of information led me to that suspicion, still, it's unimportant anyway.

It 'shouldn't take a genius, to realize that such an individual, who keeps on harping on you Timid8967,with all his crazy claims, and complaints about your posts, is better off reported to the moderators or ignored.

The same with BrotherDThomas, in my view.

'But, they don't bother me, because I don't interact with them.
If the individuals they 'do bother, choose not to report them, then I feel I'm butting into their business by reporting someone they themselves did not report.

What's the 'point in calling out individuals who may be one of the following?
Troll,
Mentally ill,
Ill formed in development of beliefs,
An extremist of uncommon zeal, twisted in mind and belief.

Such people quite often 'can't be reasoned with.
It's like talking to a brick wall,
Well, a brick wall that's also intelligent and verbally insults you for your trouble, and forces you to listen and critique bad arguments.
Why are you arguing with a wall that insults you and forces you to listen to bad arguments?

. . .

True. But surely you would agree that some christian somewhere is a representative of christianity? Why can't the brother be that paradigm example? - Timid8967
Sigh, why need I waste my time on this?

Let's look at his first post in the forums,

How many people do you see taking him seriously in that thread?

Generally in it, he's mocked, derided as either a troll, or a delusional extremist who is perverting the Christian religion.

If not so, then how so? If the brother is putting himself out there as the only true christian on this site, surely he must be representative of some form of christianity. I think that if brother is a christian he is a good reason not be to be one and to think that christians are evil. - Timid8967
We already went over this, with just because X many of a group do something, it doesn't mean the entire group does that.

But athiests are a dime a dozen.  They all have different views - there one common denominator is a disbelief in god. christians purport that they all believe the same thing because they all follow the same book and same god.  - Timid8967
There are 'many atheists, 'many Christians, 'many Muslims, they're 'all a dime a dozen, by their numbers on this Earth.

Besides, not all Christians agree with one another, nor all Muslims agree with one another.
They have variance in their doctrines and policy.

. . . 

Defining Christians and Christianity, I'm lazy, and I'm an atheist, I don't, this moment, want to spend my time researching, defining, and typing up an essay on a religion I don't follow.
So I'll steal someone elses words.

"Christianity was not created by setting down a list of rules one day, but emerged gradually and organically from a number of groups that, in some fashion or other, venerated Jesus as Christ (i.e. messiah, “anointed one of God”).
I think it’s fairly safe to say that Christians are theists who believe, in some fashion or other, in the existence of a god; and, moreover, a single supreme god rather than a pantheon of more-or-less equals. They also all venerate Jesus of Nazareth as “Christ”, or it’s hard to see where they’d get the label “Christian” in the first place.
Beyond that, it’s varied tremendously from time to time and place to place. The mainstream (Nicene) Christian view is that there is only one god, whom they call “God”; and that Jesus was the son of God, and also co-equal with God; and that his execution by crucifixion was a planned and important act of salvation, in some sense or other. But other Christians have disagreed: some thought that Jesus was very great indeed but inferior to God; some thought there were multiple (perhaps many) gods, though only one is supreme; some thought that Jesus was purely human, others purely divine, others (like the mainstream) fully both, others part one and part the other; some thought that the crucifixion was incidental and that Jesus’s teachings were what mattered…and so on.
Personally, I think that it is hopeless to define Christianity by any set of rules. I prefer to think of it in terms of a different epistemology, by asking: what do we mean, exactly, by definition? Does a definition have to be a set of binary criteria such that only if you meet a certain set of them do you qualify for the definition? Some would say No, and a prime example is the Family resemblance idea of definitions introduced by Wittgenstein. As Wikipedia summarises it,
It argues that things which could be thought to be connected by one essential common feature may in fact be connected by a series of overlapping similarities, where no one feature is common to all. Games, which Wittgenstein used as an example to explain the notion, have become the paradigmatic example of a group that is related by family resemblances.

I propose that the best useful way to define a religious group such as Christianity is by this form of definition. Else, your quest is almost hopeless, for whatever list of rules you pick, you’re sure to find groups who call themselves Christians who think that you’ve omitted things that are absolutely essential to being Christian; or that you’ve included things that are incidental or perhaps completely wrong; or more likely both.
Thus, I would suggest that the best way to make use of the other answers to this question is to browse them all, but take none of them at face value; instead extract from them their various beliefs and construct a “family resemblance” definition from them, perhaps weighted by how often they appear."
- Petter Häggholm
#80
Timid8967
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@Lemming
Thanks Lemming,

that makes lots of good sense.  I am sorry I made you have to think about these things. But I appreciate it. 

And it is good advise about Stephen and Brother Thomas.  I will try and heed what you say.  I wish I was as patient and tolerant as you. 

Unfortunately sometimes my patience wears thin as does my tolerance. 


#81
Lemming
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@Timid8967
Your praise my tolerance, encourage me to try to be worthy of such words.
Though tolerance can be taken too far.

Such individuals, would try many people's patience.

I do have to admit my 'definition of Christians is lacking, but that's characteristic of me, lacking clear and informative definitions of various beliefs and political stances. Unless I think about them for a time, read up on them.
Instead my ideas are usually in pieces, or vague, well enough for short conversation, but lacking in a lengthy explanation.
#82
MarkWebberFan
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@Yassine
This thread has progressed quite a bit into the fourth page so I guess I'll quote some of your statements. The first part of your post will not be quoted. You wishing to post in whatever way you deem appropriate is fair game, do as you want to in the thread. I won't stop you. As I said in the earlier thread in which I replied to your posts, I won't distract online traffic from looking at your posts by posting redundant stuff or whatever.

- It's a debate website. I'm here to beat people
Lol. Haha. Well, go ahead. 

...In-group "favoritism" applies to any & every ideology, by definition. Beliefs are exclusive...
You're making grandiose claims about human nature again. Islam's societal practices have no common ground with western societal practices. You're looking at the west with your islamic-tinted glasses. The fact that you're assuming that human nature has this certain innate bias clearly shows a lot about Islamic society in general. It clearly disallows a different viewpoint of human nature. This is where I disagree and decided to choose a different lifestyle. For the next part of your large posts, you've said a lot about submission. I am well aware that personal whims do not override religious obligation. Well, i know that islam has been consistent on this end. As I said earlier, the fundamental issue is that i don't agree with its lifestyle. Thus, I chose the west.

- Propaganda. Reality is otherwise. There is very little freedom to do anything in the West, except in self-gratification (aka degeneracy), then it's virtually limitless...
 I guess it's fair that taxation is theft. Again, you're inferring corruption for granted. What is it with muslims and their grandiose claims? You've claimed that western philosophy came from Islam. Yet, here, you're making mistakes as though you read none of the Vienna circles' analytic philosophers. These inferences mean nothing if only to show a generalized rejection of those you deem different than you. I'm not intending to move to the west to be a pioneer of something, I just want out of a Muslim country and read literature freely until I grow old. Malays have a simple philosophy of life. Be simple, live simple lives. Jesus, I'm not an over-zealous american hell-bent on achieving her dreams.

- You have it backwards. The West controls education in Muslim countries, though various nasty conventions. They impose their ways on the world. They have much worse restriction of literature too. They just have better PR....
So, me encountering Rawls' essays in a decrepit indonesian bookstore is an elaborate scheme by western countries? That's interesting. Maybe, when I have free time, I'll look up that charlatan Chomsky. 

I think the last part of your posts about inheritance laws seem like a rejection of my anecdotes. I think you've only offered your own rebuttal in the form of counter-anecdotes. ill read it a second time next time in case I miss anything. Once I do, expect a reply to that.


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#83
BrotherDThomas
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@Yassine


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Yassine,

FOR THE "THIRD" TIME SUBSEQUENT TO MY POST #61 BEING THE FIRST TIME WHERE YOU DID NOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS:  Are you saying that Jesus and Allah are different gods, or that Jesus and Allah are the same god along with the Hebrew Yahweh god as well?  

Now,  get off you camel and answer them post haste so Jesus and I can continue in making you the biggest Muslim fool that ever visited the forum, understood?
Are you SCARED? LOL!

BEGIN:

#84
Timid8967
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@BrotherDThomas
FOR THE SECOND TIME SUBSEQUENT TO POST #61 BEING THE FIRST TIME WHERE YOU DID NOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS:  Are you saying that Jesus and Allah are different gods, or that Jesus and Allah are the same god along with the Hebrew Yahweh god as well?  

Now, if you need help in answering this very simple question, then ask one of your equally Hell bound Muslims, okay?

BDT - amazing as your foolishness is - let me remind you - "THERE ARE NO GODS"!   Can you read? Gods are a figment of little tiny brains. God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs  Asking Yassine whether Jesus and Allah are different or the same is almost the funniest thing I have read today.  Mind you I asked a similar question a while ago - not in relation to Jesus - but to the Jewish God. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6132/post-links/265651.  No one really answered that question satisfactorily. Lots of opinions though. 

Jesus was not born until the 1st Century. Date of birth of Jesus - Wikipedia If that is true, which many people doubt, he was only a man, unless gods can be born. But likely, he is a myth.  In either event, the Muslims would probably see Allah more in the line with the Jewish god.  You do realize Brother, Mr Religious man, that Muslims do not believe in your trinitarian god. Muslims do happen to believe that Abraham's god is there god. But unless you can't figure it out, Jesus came a heck of a time later.  So it would be impossible for Muslims to believe Jesus is Allah.  Muslims Believe in One God - Allah - Islam Faith

Muslims do believe Jesus is the messiah.  And a prophet.  Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia I think they are wrong on many counts. Firstly, however, would be the fact that prophets tell the future. This implies a supernatural understanding of the world - including a deterministic position. It is impossible to tell the future unless it is fixed already.  This also implies a god.  Yet, since there is no god, there is no supernaturalism, therefore no prophets. God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs So if Jesus did live - which is unlikely, then he could not have been a prophet. And therefore the Muslims are incorrect. 

You on the other hand believe in god. Please prove that god exists. It is for the theist to prove that god exists.  When you are ready, please begin:

Unless of course - you are a charade and making it all up.  Or unless you are going to run away from me.  You are not going to run away from this question are you? Stephen has already done that.  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6355/post-links/275404  and https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6355/post-links/276000.  

Both of you are atheists pretending to be theists.  What a coincidence! Or is it? Both of you must realize the burden of proof on you is to prove that god exists. Please man up. If you are a man of course.  Begin - the whole forum is waiting for you. 

Waiting. 

#85
Wylted
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@Yassine
can you respond to Bone's post. I will copy and paste it below. I am curious about your take on what he said.

Islam, even in moderation, is not a religion of peace. A study by Pew Research Centre involving 38,000 from over 39 different countries found that

While I can agree that women should obey their husband, and I also agree about morality coming from Allah. 

The stat I am concerned about is punishing those who leave the faith. What would that pu ishment entail and why? Isn't them being condemned to hell a good enough punishment as is? 

Also, while homosexuality should certainly be discouraged through social pressure, I'm not exactly sure why a Muslim would advocate stoning the.. 

Please respond to the punishment stuff.
#86
MarkWebberFan
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@Yassine
- Again, what the flying f are you talking about?! We live in the age of internet, there is no such thing as banning literature.
False. Even the Muhammadiyah's consensus is consistent with Islam on this. For fear of having muslims led astray, you'd rather avoid the mass-circulation of literature that you deem unislamic. Sure, if it's physical science, it's harmless. Everything else however is banned because according to Islam, truth is on their side. Again, this nauseating pre-arranged idea of truth in the inquiry of knowledge is the most annoying part of islam. Practically, it leaves absolutely no breathing room for alternatives. 

#87
MarkWebberFan
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@Wylted
I'm interested in his response too. Although, he did respond in part, much in the same way if you're admitted to a religious office if word travelled that they found out that you're an apostate.

- In the spirit of education again, there are three legal perspectives on apostasy among the Fuqaha:
i. The fuqaha's (jurists) views (the more familiar to most) on apostasy are concerned more about how to deal with apostates in practice to maintain social integrity, generally by exercising persuasion, confinement or punishment. The general & majority view on this is that an apostate who has explicitly, willingly & publicly left Islam after explicitly, willingly & publicly coming into it, is to be indefinitely persuaded as long as he is willing, else punished (unless a woman). In practice this means that truth seeking law abiding apostates are not punishable.
ii. The usulis (jurisprudents) look at apostasy as a question of Taklif (accountability), the legal dilemma of reconciling apostasy punishment (which looks like coercion) with the principle of non-coercion in faith. That is, true freedom of religion can only be accomplished by removing deceptive factors & guaranteeing access to truth seeking -which is why public preaching is also prohibited in Sharia, for that is deemed propagandism. Therefore, coercion by deception & dominance is alleviated, upholding thus the principle of non-coercion.
iii. The sasas (political theorists) perspective on apostasy is in reality the most relevant, for it relates to the actual governance of the state. To them apostasy is a political offense -as opposed to a criminal one, thus they only view apostasy in light of Manaa: the intent with means to undermine the integrity of the state. Thus, they don't care about individual apostates. This is why looking back into Islamic history, all those famous apostates have never been punished, for they stayed loyal to the state.

Is death a punishment for apostates (I'm referring to your statement "else punished") above? 
#88
MarkWebberFan
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@Yassine
Forgot to tag you in the post above.
#89
Wylted
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@MarkWebberFan
Is death a punishment for apostates (I'm referring to your statement "else punished") above? 
When you look at how predominantly muslim societies will often stone queers to death and do honor killings, I think they mean punished by death in those statistics. 

I know there are other forms of punishment for leaving religions, like the jehovah witnesses will be ghosted by their entire family and the friends they have in the religion. Which socks, but is fine because of freedom of association. I just wonder if maybe I am incorrect and the Muslims polled, have maybe a different view on how to pu is apostasy.  I'm trying to learn a bit about Islam though and Yasmine is a valuable resource in that regard.
#90
Stephen
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@Wylted
and Yasmine is a valuable resource in that regard.

 Try reading about the Muslim practice of Taqiya. Muslims are allowed to tell lies for many reasons including  if it furthers the cause of Islam. 

 No different to the Christian St Paul who says it is ok to tell lies for the same reasons:

Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?