Executive power

Author: Unpopular

Posts

Total: 26
Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
According to the Pew Center, 43% of republicans in 2019 believed that presidents could operate more effectively if they did not have to worry so much about congress and the courts. That number has increased from 14% when Trump took office. That means under Trump, 30% of republicans which is  almost 1/3 of the party changed their view on the roles of the branches of government.  Huh.


Of course when Trump is in power, democrats were opposed to so much executive privilege, and such partisanship is to be expected. But what I found interesting is that it is the most conservative republicans that supported expanded power. 52% of conservatives agree that many of the country's problems could be dealt with more better if U.S. presidents didn't have to worry so much about congress or the courts, and 68% of liberal to moderate republicans say it would be too risky, so it is the more moderate republicans that want to put a check on executive power.

If republicans and democrats were polled today, would these numbers look the same? Do 43% of republicans still believe that a president should be able to bypass congress and the court to carry out their agenda? Why is it the conservatives who most believe in the consolidation of power to be under one man, one authority, rather than support separation of powers? It looks like the far right wants to live under some type of communism, with economic populism and one superior head of state, where anybody who challenges the supreme ruler is an automatic lemming because supporters of the supreme leader are the only ones you can trust. The republican party has gone to shite, along with the dems. But congress has become so ineffective, and the courts so partisan, there's no wonder so many people have little faith in them. What is the solution? 
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 3,362
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Unpopular
Communities being 'communities, and solving their own problems.
But maybe I underestimate town councils, and neighborhood associations.
My baseless 'assumption though, is that people often don't solve their own problems.
Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
-->
@Lemming
Communities being 'communities, and solving their own problems.
But maybe I underestimate town councils, and neighborhood associations.
My baseless 'assumption though, is that people often don't solve their own problems.

I'm talking about the branches of power in the U.S. government- the executive branch, which is the president, the legislative branch, which is congress, and the judicial branch, which is the courts. Republicans under Trump, and especially the conservatives, said the executive branch should have more power, which is typically the opposite of what conservatives and republicans believe.  I'm asking if this poll was done today how the parties would respond, and how we could improve the branches of government so people had more faith in them again. 
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 3,362
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Unpopular
Likely, as it's politics, parties flip and flop, depending on who's in power.
Though I'm 'unsure, on whether it's to their long term advantage or not.
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,674
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Unpopular
According to the Pew Center, 43% of republicans in 2019 believed that presidents could operate more effectively if they did not have to worry so much about congress and the courts. That number has increased from 14% when Trump took office. That means under Trump, 30% of republicans which is  almost 1/3 of the party changed their view on the roles of the branches of government.  Huh.

i agree with these republicans, the executive branch needs more power and the SCOTUS has way too much, 9 people in robes cant just strike down anything they dont like
Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
-->
@Dr.Franklin
i agree with these republicans, the executive branch needs more power and the SCOTUS has way too much, 9 people in robes cant just strike down anything they dont like
They are supposed to be following the constitutional and legal precedent, and their clerks provide them with all the information they use to make a decision. If they do not decide if something is constitutional or not, who should be deciding that, the president? The president is sometimes the one being challenged in court, like when they do something unconstitutional that shouldn't be enforced. If Biden decided to round up every gun in America, the supreme court would be the ones to rule that illegal. In what ways do you think the president should have more power? 
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,674
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Unpopular
make it so that the President just has more power over at least congress and it make so that the SCOTUS ruling can be challenged
Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
-->
@Dr.Franklin
make it so that the President just has more power over at least congress and it make so that the SCOTUS ruling can be challenged
A supreme court decision can be overturned, such as when gay marriage was legalized eventually, or when you create a new constitutional amendment, which is done by the congress. Where should a president have more control over congress? If Joe Biden wanted to confiscate all guns, and the supreme court and congress was both against that, you think he should be able to do it anyway? 
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Unpopular
According to the Pew Center, 43% of republicans in 2019 believed that presidents could operate more effectively if they did not have to worry so much about congress and the courts. That number has increased from 14% when Trump took office. That means under Trump, 30% of republicans which is  almost 1/3 of the party changed their view on the roles of the branches of government.  Huh.
We have much more recent and relevant polling regarding American's faith in the Constitutional separation of power as discovered in polling about Jan 6th.  The 2019 Pew poll was strictly political theory while Jan 6th was an actual pass/fail test.  Whatever Republicans' self-delusion about the election results, there's no denying that all Constitutional processes had been respected and that Jan 6th was the Constitutionally mandated assembly of the Legislative Branch to count electoral votes and formalize the transition of Executive power.  Anybody who supports, excuses, or forgives that violent interruption of Legislative power on behalf of the discharged Executive stands in opposition to the Constitution's balance of powers and endorses the supremacy of one man over and above the State's representatives and the duly appointed Judiciary.  45% of Republican voters (about 20% of all voters) supported the storming the day after Trump's attack and that number has remained fairly consistent.  That's not hypothetical anymore- that's 1 in 5 American voters endorsing the Executive's rejection of powers granted to the Legislative and Judiciary by the US Constitution.  When it came to a real world test of who supports the US Constitution, the majority of Republicans flunked.

52% of conservatives agree that many of the country's problems could be dealt with more better if U.S. presidents didn't have to worry so much about congress or the courts, and 68% of liberal to moderate republicans say it would be too risky, so it is the more moderate republicans that want to put a check on executive power.  If republicans and democrats were polled today, would these numbers look the same? Do 43% of republicans still believe that a president should be able to bypass congress and the court to carry out their agenda? Why is it the conservatives who most believe in the consolidation of power to be under one man, one authority, rather than support separation of powers?
Republicans who identify as conservative to a Pew pollster fail to reflect in any way the values of American Conservativism as is easily demonstrated by the poll results.  The first principle of American Conservatism is a tradition of limited Federal power is relation to the States.  By definition, if you agree "that many of the country's problems could be dealt with....better if U.S. presidents didn't have to worry so much about congress or the courts"  you are not a Conservative by any American standard.  There are almost no Conservatives left in the Republican Party, indeed little evidence of any political principle at all beyond the naked acquisition and retention of power.

It looks like the far right wants to live under some type of communism, with economic populism and one superior head of state, where anybody who challenges the supreme ruler is an automatic lemming because supporters of the supreme leader are the only ones you can trust.
That's not Communism by any definition, which was anti-Statist generally much less promoting any head of State.  If you mean that the Republican's current political philosophy most closely resembles authoritarian USSR under Stalin (which called itself Communism but never demonstrated any of the principles of that political philosophy),  then I whole-heartedly agree while also  noting the concurrence of such renewed resemblance in Putin's Russia.

The republican party has gone to shite, along with the dems. But congress has become so ineffective, and the courts so partisan, there's no wonder so many people have little faith in them. What is the solution? 
American must maintain faith in our republican institutions and our US Constitution, even if it comes to a second Civil War, even if we all perish in that pursuit.  It is a slow and frustrating process but we must keep our eyes on the prize.  We must preserve the freedom and fairness of elections and use that instrument as the best reflection of the American will.   If Congress seems ineffective it is mostly because one party refuses to act or legislate or fulfill its Constitutional duties in any loyal sense-so I argue we should vote that party out of power and put into power people who will represent our values.   I don't think the Courts are irretrievably partisan but to the degree Courts demonstrate real partisan preference they should be challenged and replaced with judges who will fulfill their oaths.  Yes, our faith in America is being tested but we have faced this test before and found a way forward.  We must pass this test and survive and thrive again as a people of the people by the people for the people.
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,674
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Unpopular
as far as im aware, the decision can not be overided
Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Nearly 100 supreme court cases have been overturned, here is a list.


Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,758
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Unpopular
so it is the more moderate republicans that want to put a check on executive power.
I think it makes sense to conclude that, while of course not completely immune, the more moderate members (of either party) are less prone to partisanship.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Unpopular
You claim it is republicans who claim greater executive power, yet, in Trump's first year in office [2017], according to the Federal Register office https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents/executive-orders/joe-biden/2021

55 EOs were signed by by Trump according to the Register in hgis first 12 months. Whereas, Biden, in 6 months, has already signed 51 EOs. well ahead of your criticism of Trump. Care to use some official stats in your stated opinion as to presidential thought on the matter?

Not to mention that your cited Pew Poll includes some information you ignore: 
1. The polled used an insufficient sample size to be statistically significant, using only 1,500 samples when it should have been a minimum if 2,400.
2. The poll also distinguished both liberal and conservative repubs, and the data demonstrates a decided advantage toward liberals among the Rs.
3. The poll also demonstrates a generally declining view of the public of both parties taking a dimmer view of Congress.
Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
-->
@fauxlaw
You claim it is republicans who claim greater executive power, yet, in Trump's first year in office [2017], according to the Federal Register office https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents/executive-orders/joe-biden/2021
What I said is that according to the Pew Center, 43% of republicans in 2019 believed that presidents could operate more effectively if they did not have to worry so much about congress and the courts. A link about Joe Biden's executive orders does not disprove that, and I don't see how it's relevant to the statement at all.


55 EOs were signed by by Trump according to the Register in hgis first 12 months. Whereas, Biden, in 6 months, has already signed 51 EOs. well ahead of your criticism of Trump. Care to use some official stats in your stated opinion as to presidential thought on the matter?
I never said that Trump signed more executive orders than Joe Biden, nor did I criticize Trump in my post. I don't have any opinion on the number of executive orders either  one has signed because off hand I do not know the nature of what those orders are. Usually I support a separation of powers, so I am mostly against executive orders except in rare circumstances.


Not to mention that your cited Pew Poll includes some information you ignore: 
1. The polled used an insufficient sample size to be statistically significant, using only 1,500 samples when it should have been a minimum if 2,400.
2. The poll also distinguished both liberal and conservative repubs, and the data demonstrates a decided advantage toward liberals among the Rs.

It is a good point that good polls should use more people, but I don't see how the data demonstrates an advantage toward liberals among the Rs. What does that have to do with my questions about how before Trump, republicans wanted separation of powers and after Trump, they wanted the president to have more power to override the other branches of government? 

3. The poll also demonstrates a generally declining view of the public of both parties taking a dimmer view of Congress.

Actually I did not ignore that, in the OP I wrote " The republican party has gone to shite, along with the dems. But congress has become so ineffective, and the courts so partisan, there's no wonder so many people have little faith in them. " 
Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
I think it makes sense to conclude that, while of course not completely immune, the more moderate members (of either party) are less prone to partisanship.
Ok but what does that have to do with republicans suddenly wanting the president to have more power to go against the other branches of government? 
Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
-->
@oromagi
Anybody who supports, excuses, or forgives that violent interruption of Legislative power on behalf of the discharged Executive stands in opposition to the Constitution's balance of powers and endorses the supremacy of one man over and above the State's representatives and the duly appointed Judiciary.  
I agree with this entirely, and most of your whole post, except for the below.

There are almost no Conservatives left in the Republican Party, indeed little evidence of any political principle at all beyond the naked acquisition and retention of power.

I think this is where you get an interesting debate, and this is what I was getting at in the OP. The republican party has changed. The republican party is no longer defined as open markets and small government. There's a lot of populists in the party now, a lot of people who want big government to run the markets and consider themselves the real conservatives of traditional, American, conservative values. If you ask people like Tucker Carlson, who now speaks for the masses, as I think he is still the most popular host on Fox News, the republican party of the past was not really conservatives but elites masquerading as conservatives. I think there is real tension in the party, which is funny, because people always talk about how its the democrats that are divided and they certainly are, but so are the republicans over what real conservativism means. It uses to be conservatives were one thing, but now they see the other branches of government as corrupt and so if they think all government is corrupt and you can only trust one man, I don't know, it's interesting how definitions may change. The democrats used to be the party of slavery, now they're the ones fighting white supremacy, vocally at least. 


Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,758
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Unpopular
Ok but what does that have to do with republicans suddenly wanting the president to have more power to go against the other branches of government? 
Do you seriously think that extreme partisanship is not the reason for their change of heart? I can't think of anything else it could be.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,038
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Unpopular
now they're the ones fighting white supremacy,
A white supremacist nation wouldn't allow flag burning minorities to participate in the Olympics. 

America is objectively today run by minorities who wield the majority of power collectively, and it's unlikely to change before a massive Balkanization of the nation as has happened every time in history when a nation becomes hyper tribal. Half of the white population actively professes to hate their skin color, but won't actually go any further than that such as give up their property and job to a non-white. It's a sure recipe for Balkanization; especially as the political parties have taken nearly every policy and labeled a religious condemnation to anyone that questions those policies. A regression to a nation of competing tribes is inevitable baring the emergence of a common enemy.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,038
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Many of the self-hating whites are reminiscent of the Jewish collaborators with the Germans thinking it would somehow stave off their own extermination.
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,674
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Unpopular
no, that overtunred by the court, not overturned by like the president
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Unpopular
I think this is where you get an interesting debate, and this is what I was getting at in the OP. The republican party has changed. The republican party is no longer defined as open markets and small government. There's a lot of populists in the party now, a lot of people who want big government to run the markets and consider themselves the real conservatives of traditional, American, conservative values.
I agree that the Republican party has changed dramatically and abandoned all its former principles.  But when these neo-Populists call themselves the "real Conservatives of traditional, American, Conservative values" that doesn't change the meaning of the word "Conservative" that only makes the neo-Populists wrong in their belief that they are Conservative anymore.  Just because the Nazis called themselves Socialists doesn't mean they were Socialists.  The definitions of words don't change just because people use the word deceptively.  The principles of American Conservatism don't change just because the Republicans stopped believing in them.  

If you ask people like Tucker Carlson, who now speaks for the masses, as I think he is still the most popular host on Fox News, the republican party of the past was not really conservatives but elites masquerading as conservatives.
Tucker Carlson is certainly speaking to and for the Trumpists, which makes a good-sized mob but hardly "the masses"- just under half of Republicans, or 1 in 5 voters or about 13% of Americans overall.  Still, I consider Tucker Carlson a perfect illustration of the Republicans" Orwellian rudderlessness.  On the night of Jan 6th, Carlson reported that Trump "recklessly encouraged" the attack on the Capitol.  Six weeks later, Carlson characterizes Liz Cheney's identical statement as obedience to the Fascist Left.  In 2018, Carlson's lawyers argued in court that Carlson can't be held liable for slander because  "the "'general tenor' of the show should then inform a viewer that [Carlson] is not 'stating actual facts' about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in 'exaggeration' and 'non-literal commentary.' and that "no reasonable person" would take what Tucker says seriously.  Weeks later, Alex Jones' lawyers made the exact same argument in his custody battle-  Alex Jones is just playing a character for entertainment purposes and "no reasonable person" would take his editorial opinion seriously.  Trump's lawyer and main propagator of the election fraud falsehoods used to justify the Jan 6th coup attempt argued in court on Mar 23rd that when it came to claims of election fraud, "No reasonable person would conclude that the statements were truly statements of fact."  When under penalty of perjury (and only then apparently) the core of the Republican Party will swear to God that they are not serious people stating actual beliefs, that they are actors paid to play a part and that no reasonable person should believe them. Trump is the first and the worst of them, the most prolific liar in history: saying in public that COVID is not to be feared while simultaneously confiding to Bob Woodward his understanding of the peril;  conceding the election one day, then the next saying he expects to be President again by August.  Putin and Kim Jong-Un are friends.  ANTIFA did Jan 6th.  Bob Barr is really a "swamp creature."  There is no Republican reality except what suits the power play of the moment.  All ideological core is gone- even officially, the Republican Party no longer has a political platform or statement of first principles.

Yes the Republican Party was traditionally the party of the elite establishment and that establishment always tends towards Conservatism because the traditional has worked out well for them, they don't want change because they are in power, they want small government because the elites have their own bases of power.  The notion that billionaire NY real estate moguls DON'T represent the elite establishment but AOC or BLM DOES represent the elite establishment is just more proof of FOX doublethink.  As Orwell put it:

"To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself—that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word—doublethink—involved the use of doublethink."

ANTIFA did Jan 6th but also Jan 6th was no big deal but also Jan 6th was justified.  The election of Biden was fraud but also the election of GOP Senators was fair.
COVID is a Chinese attack but also vaccines are a Fauci conspiracy.  The poor are the elite and racial minorities the establishment.  Whatever Tucker says today must be true even after he swore that he can't be trusted.

I think there is real tension in the party, which is funny, because people always talk about how its the democrats that are divided and they certainly are, but so are the republicans over what real conservativism means. It uses to be conservatives were one thing, but now they see the other branches of government as corrupt and so if they think all government is corrupt and you can only trust one man, I don't know, it's interesting how definitions may change.
Definitions of words don't change because just political interests employ words deceptively.  American Conservatism is still what it was.  Republicans used to fault John Paul Stevens for transitioning from the most Conservative appointee to the Supreme Court to the most Liberal but Stevens quite correctly points out that fifty years of his judicial philosophy is on the record and remained exactly the same.  What has changed is the Republican Party.  Romney and Cheney, the Bushes and George Will have not changed their political philosophy- they are still conservatives in the traditional American sense.  They are RINOs now because the Republican Party no longer values Conservatism or indeed any political principle at all.

Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
-->
@Dr.Franklin
no, that overtunred by the court, not overturned by like the president

I don't know what you're talking about, none of those cases were overturned by the president. They were court cases that the supreme court overturned later on, though it's possible to have congress undue some court decisions. 
Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
-->
@Greyparrot
A white supremacist nation wouldn't allow flag burning minorities to participate in the Olympics. 

Are you referring to that girl who turned her back during the anthem? I haven't heart about this. I don't  think someone who turns their back on the anthem or flag should be in the Olympics though. Unlike professional sports, where one could argue free speech, the whole point of the Olympics is to represent your country. That isn't the time to protest your country. Or maybe it is, I haven't though about it like that yet. But for the most part I think you should not be burning the flag on the world stage. If an Olympian wants to burn the flag at home, I'm fine with that. That's their free speech, that's the whole point of what's great about America. 

America is objectively today run by minorities who wield the majority of power collectively, and it's unlikely to change before a massive Balkanization of the nation as has happened every time in history when a nation becomes hyper tribal. Half of the white population actively professes to hate their skin color, but won't actually go any further than that such as give up their property and job to a non-white. It's a sure recipe for Balkanization; especially as the political parties have taken nearly every policy and labeled a religious condemnation to anyone that questions those policies. A regression to a nation of competing tribes is inevitable baring the emergence of a common enemy.
I very much doubt that half the population hates their skin color, but what does any of this have to do with executive power? I said before Trump, 14% of republicans thought the executive branch had too little power and during Trump, 43% of republicans though the executive branch had too little power. What does that have to do with what a nation of competing tribes or white guilt?

Many of the self-hating whites are reminiscent of the Jewish collaborators with the Germans thinking it would somehow stave off their own extermination.

I still don't see what self hating whites, whoever those people supposedly are,  has to do with the checks and balances of the United States government. 
Unpopular
Unpopular's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 98
0
1
3
Unpopular's avatar
Unpopular
0
1
3
-->
@oromagi
Tucker Carlson is certainly speaking to and for the Trumpists, which makes a good-sized mob but hardly "the masses"- just under half of Republicans, or 1 in 5 voters or about 13% of Americans overall.  

Trump still has a  hold on the republican party, though it's smaller than before. 53% of republicans view Trump as the real president which is just insane. There hasn't been any proof, and each person sticking to those claims is crazier than the next like the my pillow guy Mike Lindell and lawyer Sidney Powell. They appear erratic and unhinged. If half the republican party truly believes the whole government is so thoroughly corrupt at every single level of government in and out, through and through in every state and party, I'm surprised there hasn't been a coup. I think they know deep down Trump didn't win and they just really want him to be president so they go along with these crazy things. That's what I was saying in the OP, I doubt if you polled Republicans now in July 2021 that 43% would say Joe Biden doesn't have enough power and should be able to bypass congress and the courts. They are not consistent, nobody is. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,038
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Unpopular
I still don't see what self hating whites, whoever those people supposedly are,  has to do with the checks and balances of the United States government. 
Because those who can control the narrative and create evil labels for the groups of people that are in the way of uncontested power will ultimately bypass those checks and balances. The laws mean nothing when the political narrative saps the will of the people to enforce them.

Congress doesn't have to worry about not delivering solutions when the people are too distracted fighting among themselves in the streets.
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,674
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Unpopular
its different