Why exactly is Pool Billiards separated by gender?

Author: Intelligence_06

Posts

Total: 36
Topic's author
#1
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
You have Men's billiards, and you have women's billiards. Those are two separate competitions.

This is not like weightlifting, where men has superior strengths overall; and this is not like gymnastics, where women is more sufficient at balancing.

To be fair, most of us that can type a computer should be able to exert a force that would knock a white ball onto a red ball, then into the socket, even if the balls are on either walls of the pool table. As of the precision, Most of us can just train enough to get good.

So why exactly is pool billiards separated by gender?
Topic's author
#2
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
There is no female-only chess or male-only poker competitions anywhere in this world, so why the gender separation here?
#3
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
I believe it is in case a fight to the death breaks out, and pool cues are snapped to make pointed objects. 

Pool is the thing I miss most about countryside bars actually. In cities in Ireland it's regarded as a scumbag sort of thing. Draws trouble, I guess. 
#4
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Reminds me of brian_eggleston: 

"It's good to see Badger back and I would like to thank him for his generous compliments! I wonder where he's been for so long, by the way. Many of you will remember Badger's early days on this site when his avatar was a charming photo of him on the lash down the pub, grinning menacingly and swinging a pool cue about in an aggressive manner. Oh, yes, the good old days when Badger used to come on this site when everybody else was asleep and have arguments with himself on the forums; the good old days when Badger was a socialist who shunned the use of the "shift" key, dismissing it as an obscene capitalist decadence, but since he has been away it seems he has been reformed: not only does he now employ the use of capital letters but it seems he has also become an apologist for the Bourgeoisie."

Sorry lol. 
#5
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Intelligence_06
Chess has more lenient elo for women to gain same titles as men.
#6
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
I know!  Why is Olympic shooting divided into Men's and Women's?

or Bowling?
#7
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Intelligence_06
This whole discussion is ridiculous to begin with. Billiard is not a sport!
#8
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Athias
->@Intelligence_06
This whole discussion is ridiculous to begin with. Billiard is not a sport!
disagree

Wiki:

SPORT pertains to any form of competitive physical activity or game that aims to use, maintain or improve physical ability and skills while providing enjoyment to participants and, in some cases, entertainment to spectators

CUE SPORTS also known as billiard SPORTs, are a wide variety of games of skill generally played with a cue stick, which is used to strike billiard balls and thereby cause them to move around a cloth-covered billiards table bounded by elastic bumpers known as cushions.

Shooting SPORTs is a collective group of competitive and recreational sporting activities involving proficiency tests of accuracy, precision and speed in shooting — the art of using various types of ranged firearms, mainly referring to man-portable guns (firearms and airguns, in forms such as handguns, rifles, and shotguns) and bows/crossbows.

Bowling is a target SPORT and recreational activity in which a player rolls a ball toward pins (in pin bowling) or another target (in target bowling). 
Topic's author
#9
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@oromagi
But that doesn't answer the question. Why is it separated by gender? Or do you just not know?
#10
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@oromagi
I know!  Why is Olympic shooting divided into Men's and Women's?
Men and women have different bone structures. The hips are one main difference for shooting, as it allows different amounts of support (at least for shooting while standing), for instance.
#11
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Intelligence_06
@oromagi
But that doesn't answer the question. Why is it separated by gender? Or do you just not know?
I'm no historian of billiards but I'm willing to speculate to some degree.

  • Originally, billiards was a sport of the European upper class and ladies often played.  Mary, Queen of Scots was a famous billiards player who was buried wrapped in the cloth taken off her prison billiards table.
  • The game increased in popularity in America, particularly among Civil War soldiers and particularly as an object of gambling.  The name "pool" is a gambling reference and tables were to be found at horseracing tracks and saloons before the popular adoption of pool halls. None of these environments were particularly welcoming to well-mannered women so there were few women players.
    • Competitive women's billiards started in the UK in the 1920's and enjoyed some (aristocratic) popularity for a few decades.
  • The game was considered rather low-class and dying out when the 1961 move "The Hustler" renewed popularity and it is after this point that some US women began to play professionally, although always in a much smaller proportion than men.  Even if you look at movies in the '80's and '90's the cliché is still men playing while women admire from the margins- The Color of Money,  Urban Cowboy.  The clichés about hustling and fighting may play some part in dissuading women or attracting men.
    • Many US tournaments are not segregated by gender and women do compete.  Women compete in the US Open for example and have won some large payouts although no woman has taken the top prize.
    • Many US tournaments include couples events and team events where women are often competitive.
    • Overall, though, I think the main reason we still see gender division in billiards is because there are far fewer women, and so a woman who wants to go Pro has a much better shot at achieving cash rewards in the women's league.  Big fish, small pond.
    • At present, if all Pro billiards competitions became unisex,  only a few women would be top-ranked and some women who currently make a living would be driven out of the cash prizes.
  • So- 
    • there's less gender segregation than most sports
    • some of that segregation seems cultural and anarchronistic
    • some of that segregation is strategic and voluntary on the part of PRO women.

#12
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Intelligence_06
I'm reminded of a group of women friends of mine who started playing a sort of tough street version of rollerblade hockey in a local park on Sunday mornings for a few years.  There were maybe twenty men who played and only three women but they played hard and competitively and were top picks for games.  It then happened that our state was hosting some national street hockey exhibition and while there were women's teams from many states competing there was not a team from our state and the state decided to sponsor an ad-hoc team just for the sake of representation.  The men recommended my three friends to state officials and the women then recruited from  their friends and local venues.  They never had a chance to train or even play together as a team before they competed but they beat every women's team they faced and won the championship.  I expect this is because all the out-of-state women had only been competing against other women's team all along while my friends had been playing and succeeding along with the men.  I suppose it's only anecdotal but I do suspect that one of the major reasons women are less competitive against men in a lot of sports is because they don't train against men much or ever.  Yes, there would still be all the gender difference in terms of size and strength in many sports but I think the more women are allowed to compete against men, the more women will train to a level that will sometimes beat men.  Certainly in something like billiards, if more women join and compete against men more often, I fully expect an exceptional woman would take the US Open and then other women champions would follow.  A lot of sport is mental.  Nobody thought a human could surpass the 4 minute mile but once surpassed, many runners found that capacity within themselves.
#13
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Intelligence_06
It's separated by gender, by tradition.
#14
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@oromagi
You make such good posts on the most seemingly random of shit. 

I suppose it's only anecdotal but I do suspect that one of the major reasons women are less competitive against men in a lot of sports is because they don't train against men much or ever.
It's not only anecdotal, it's tried and tested. RM brings up chess earlier, the Polgar sisters are such an interesting case where it comes to female ability. The reason women don't meet men's standards in a lot of sports where they might be expected to, is because they are not trained into it like men are. Just the fact that there's less women in all of these sports to begin with suggests this, but Lazlo Polgar gave us a proof. 

Random aside, I once wrote a short story about a pool shark and I think it's the best thing I've ever written. I liked the "big fish in a small pond" double meaning of it. 
#15
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
My mam spends her evenings watching youtube videos on famous gravestones, medieval furniture, the Romanovs, that sort of shit. She's a total fairy tbh but she has knowledge on any sort of topic you could ever think to bring up. Detail oriented, I think. I reckon her brain must be so different to mine, I'm definitely more of a concepts kinda guy. Maybe there's something in that too, but really I'm just often in awe of her. Then I lean in over her shoulder for a video on riddles of which I've seen all of them before and rattle off the answers for her and she thinks I'm a fucking genius but I'm a total cheater lol. 
#16
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Even being out in the farm as a little kid, I got such a training in tool use and levers and statics and centers of gravity. I can't much articulate it, but there was a quiet physics in all of it. I honestly think there's genius in the way a man handles a pipe grips even. The dumbest grunt might have a thousand years of artistry in the way he handles tools. And be smug about it of course, they all are, and all watching the thoughtless boy, but there with a tip, or a hint, or a secret. And again we leave girls in home. It's no wonder. 
#17
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@oromagi
Wiki:

SPORT pertains to any form of competitive physical activity or game that aims to use, maintain or improve physical ability and skills while providing enjoyment to participants and, in some cases, entertainment to spectators
The context in which I applied the term, sport, was exclusive to athletic competition, which games like billiards, golf, and bowling are devoid of (not that I mentioned bowling to begin with.) I've played athletic sports like Basketball and Football, and I've also played games which focus more on skill like billiards, golf, bowling, etc. and trust me--there's a difference. The term, Sport, colloquially has become, unjustly, a substitute for competition. I acknowledge games like billiards, golf, bowling, chess, poker, and even "gaming" as platforms for large scale competition; I do not acknowledge them as sports primarily due to limited physical exertion and stamina the aforementioned require. 

#18
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Athias
I certainly empathize- I feel the same way when automobile racing is categorized as sport.  Still, making up you own definition for words is not likely to help.
#19
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@oromagi
I certainly empathize- I feel the same way when automobile racing is categorized as sport.  Still, making up you own definition for words is not likely to help.
I didn't make it up. The definition of sports, like many words, have nuanced descriptions. And competitions like bowling, and billiards, and even "gaming" have entered the vernacular of Sports only in recent decades. 

#20
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Athias
@oromagi
I certainly empathize- I feel the same way when automobile racing is categorized as sport.  Still, making up you own definition for words is not likely to help.
I didn't make it up. The definition of sports, like many words, have nuanced descriptions. And competitions like bowling, and billiards, and even "gaming" have entered the vernacular of Sports only in recent decades. 
I don't buy either of those claims.  If anything, the old English meaning was even further flung including any amusement as good sport- from poker to sex and I assume the English, at least, have consider bowling billiards sporting pastimes since at least the 19th century.

#21
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@oromagi
I don't buy either of those claims. 
I'll address your first statement, later:

If anything, the old English meaning was even further flung including any amusement as good sport
I never claimed that the Old English, or the etymological root, of the term, Sports, excluded leisurely and recreational activities--i.e. from poker to sex. I stated that billiards, bowling, and even "gaming" entered  the vernacular of Sports only in recent decades. Billiards competitions go far back, but so does Chess. 

And second, are you claiming incredulity as it concerns the nuance of definitions? Do you want me to cite a definition which meets my description? Merely typing "sport" into your google search engine should suffice.

You can even conduct an impromptu survey for your own benefit: ask any random sample(s) of individuals whether or not they play "sports" and see how often billiards, poker, bowling, "gaming," etc. comes up when answered in the affirmative.
Topic's author
#22
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
Why do any of you say that autosports isn't sports?
#23
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Intelligence_06
Why do any of you say that autosports isn't sports?

I don't think anybody did.  I said I didn't like it, I didn't say it wasn't true.
#24
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Athias
The definition of sports, like many words, have nuanced descriptions. 
Yes, there are multiple sense of the word Sport, but none that include running and exclude billiards as you claim.

SPORT [noun] (countable and uncountable, plural sports)
  1. (countable) Any activity that uses physical exertion or skills competitively under a set of rules that is not based on aesthetics.
    • Billiards and bowling are games of skill, so applicable
  2. (countable) Something done for fun, regardless of its design or intended purpose.
    Joe was banned from getting legal help. He seemed to view lawsuits as a sport.
    • Billiards and bowling are fun, so applicable
  3. (countable) A person who exhibits either good or bad sportsmanship.
    Jen may have won, but she was sure a poor sport; she laughed at the loser.
    The loser was a good sport, and congratulated Jen on her performance.
    • N/A
  4. (countable) Somebody who behaves or reacts in an admirably good-natured manner, e.g. to being teased or to losing a game; a good sport.
    You're such a sport! You never get upset when we tease you.
    • N/A
  5. (obsolete) That which diverts, and makes mirth; pastime; amusement. quotations 
    • Billiards and bowling are amusing, so applicable
  6. (obsolete) Mockery, making fun; derision. 
    • N/A
  7. (countable) A toy; a plaything; an object of mockery.
    • N/A
  8. (uncountable) Gaming for money as in racing, hunting, fishing.
    • Billiards particular but also bowling may be bet on, so applicable
      • Poker, as I said
  9. (biology, botany, zoology, countable) A plant or an animal, or part of a plant or animal, which has some peculiarity not usually seen in the species; an abnormal variety or growth. The term encompasses both mutants and organisms with non-genetic developmental abnormalities such as birth defects. 
    • N/A
  10. (slang, countable) A sportsman; a gambler.
    • N/A
  11. (slang, countable) One who consorts with disreputable people, including prostitutes.
    • N/A
  12. (obsolete, uncountable) An amorous dalliance.
    Charlie and Lisa enjoyed a bit of sport after their hike.
    • Sex, as I said
  13. (informal, usually singular) A friend or acquaintance (chiefly used when speaking to the friend in question) 
    • N/A
  14. (obsolete) Play; idle jingle. 
    • N/A


#25
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Athias
competitions like bowling, and billiards, and even "gaming" have entered the vernacular of Sports only in recent decades. 

  • The earliest reference to billiards as a SPORT that I can readily locate is Egan's London magazine "Annals of Sporting" 1823
  • The earliest reference to lawn bowling as a SPORT that I an readily locate is Fitzstephen's "The Life of St Thomas Becket" written in the 1170's
  • The Ancient Greeks referred to the Olympics as the "Olympic Games" "Olympiaki agones" since 776 BC

#26
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,171
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@Athias
This whole discussion is ridiculous to begin with. Billiard is not a sport!  You are correct, its a competition like a spelling Bee or a baking contest, it requires no physical strength 
#27
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@oromagi
Yes, there are multiple sense of the word Sport, but none that include running and exclude billiards as you claim.

SPORT [noun] (countable and uncountable, plural sports)
  1. (countable) Any activity that uses physical exertion or skills competitively under a set of rules that is not based on aesthetics.
    • Billiards and bowling are games of skill, so applicable
  2. (countable) Something done for fun, regardless of its design or intended purpose.
    Joe was banned from getting legal help. He seemed to view lawsuits as a sport.
    • Billiards and bowling are fun, so applicable
  3. (countable) A person who exhibits either good or bad sportsmanship.
    Jen may have won, but she was sure a poor sport; she laughed at the loser.
    The loser was a good sport, and congratulated Jen on her performance.
    • N/A
  4. (countable) Somebody who behaves or reacts in an admirably good-natured manner, e.g. to being teased or to losing a game; a good sport.
    You're such a sport! You never get upset when we tease you.
    • N/A
  5. (obsolete) That which diverts, and makes mirth; pastime; amusement. quotations 

  1. (obsolete) Mockery, making fun; derision. 
    • N/A
  2. (countable) A toy; a plaything; an object of mockery.
    • N/A
  3. (uncountable) Gaming for money as in racing, hunting, fishing.
    • Billiards particular but also bowling may be bet on, so applicable
      • Poker, as I said
  4. (biology, botany, zoology, countable) A plant or an animal, or part of a plant or animal, which has some peculiarity not usually seen in the species; an abnormal variety or growth. The term encompasses both mutants and organisms with non-genetic developmental abnormalities such as birth defects. 
    • N/A
  5. (slang, countable) A sportsman; a gambler.
    • N/A
  6. (slang, countable) One who consorts with disreputable people, including prostitutes.
    • N/A
  7. (obsolete, uncountable) An amorous dalliance.
    Charlie and Lisa enjoyed a bit of sport after their hike.
    • Sex, as I said
  8. (informal, usually singular) A friend or acquaintance (chiefly used when speaking to the friend in question) 
    • N/A
  9. (obsolete) Play; idle jingle. 
    • N/A
It's impressive that you've combed through so many definitions, but ultimately futile. I'm not rejecting any of those definitions. I'm only indulging the nuance in the description of Sports and creating divisions based on popular usage. However, since you do require an explicit reference which meets my description, I'll provide it for you:


(2) : a particular activity (such as an athletic game) so engaged in

1 : physical activity (as running or an athletic game) engaged in for pleasure or exercise

Now that we've established that I'm not making up definitions, let's delve further into your non-sequiturs:

    • Billiards and bowling are fun, so applicable

Billiards and bowling are amusing, so applicable

Having played Billiards and bowled numerous times, I can attest to the notion that these games are fun and amusing. That however is not the source of my contention. To understand the distinction I'm drawing a bit better, let's first define "athlete":

Athlete:
a person who is proficient in sports and other forms of physical exercise.

 a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill.

a person trained to compete in sports or exercises involving physical strength, speed, or endurance

I cite these definitions in order to demonstrate the term's association to sports. And you'll also notice in those definitions the equivalence drawn between sports and games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina. 

If we accept games like Billiards, bowling, and the like into the vernacular of Sports, then there's nothing that discourages the label of a pool player as an "athlete" especially considering your broad application of the term Sports. Some Obese teenager sitting on a "gaming chair" for 16 hours a day would also be considered an athlete, and tacitly equated to athletes of sports like Basketball, Baseball, Football, Soccer, Tennis, etc. 

Oromagi, you are aware of distinction I've made. (Hence, your stating that you empathized.) The issue was whether my description was "made up." I trust now that your concern has been addressed.
#28
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@sadolite
This whole discussion is ridiculous to begin with. Billiard is not a sport!  You are correct, its a competition like a spelling Bee or a baking contest, it requires no physical strength 
I more so blame the English language than anything else.
Topic's author
#29
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@sadolite
The last time I tried baking a bread, it was a real damn workout. According to what you think about anything here, baking contests are technically sports.


#30
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,171
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@Intelligence_06
"The last time I tried baking a bread, it was a real damn workout. ' I am guessing really poor cardio