School choice

Author: TheUnderdog

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TheUnderdog
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I support it right now, but I don't know the other side that well.

My dad is very against the school choice movement because he cites that autistic kids will suffer.  I think autistic kids would do better with school choice because they get to have more of specialized education that allows them to do better in their chosen field.

Everyone else also benefits.
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@TheUnderdog
I'm led to believe much of the problems with school choice come from people only wanting to go to the 'good' schools. And, it would seem reasonable to me to then conclude that all the 'bad' schools (which might be mostly from areas with poor/marginalized communities) would either run out of funding or not have enough students or would be forced to stay 'bad' because any student who is able to go to a different school likely would.

I have a friend in Ireland where they do have school choice (at least for high school), and they're fairly strict with who they let in (e.g. you must know 3 or more languages for admission in some schools [English, Irish, and some other one, usually]) and the conduct they require for students in order to protect their reputation, if I am remembering correctly. For these reasons I think you'd see a lot less parents of autistic students sending their children to a school specialized for those with developmental disorders and a lot more privileged parents trying to send their child to the 'best' school (not all too different from vaccine shopping where people try to get only the 'best' vaccine), which would overburden those schools and generally be to everyone's detriment.
badger
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I have no idea what school choice is, but I'm from Ireland and our schools or colleges aren't strict in the slightest. Study of English, Irish, and another language is mandatory in every school across the country, though. 
Dr.Franklin
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school choice is very broad
Greyparrot
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@TheUnderdog
All the schools suck so choice doesn't matter.
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@badger
The experience of my friend (who is from a rural area somewhere around Galway) very well may not be universal, but all the things I said are relative to the Canadian education I received, of course. I'm not fully certain how it works, but I believe(?) my friend stopped taking Irish.
TheUnderdog
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@Nyxified
I'm led to believe much of the problems with school choice come from people only wanting to go to the 'good' schools. And, it would seem reasonable to me to then conclude that all the 'bad' schools (which might be mostly from areas with poor/marginalized communities) would either run out of funding or not have enough students or would be forced to stay 'bad' because any student who is able to go to a different school likely would.
Or the bad school could sell themselves to a good school.  If School A (which is run by company A) competes with school B (run by company B), and school A sucks, they could sell themselves to company B, so company B (the better company) runs both schools, enabling the typical student to be educated by the better of 2 school options.  If there are 10 schools, the 9 worse schools eventually sell themselves to the best school, and now most people have a better education.

and the conduct they require for students in order to protect their reputation
If the conduct is all happening inside the school, I don't think the school would have a bad reputation with poorly behaved kids as long as they deliver better grades.

For these reasons I think you'd see a lot less parents of autistic students sending their children to a school specialized for those with developmental disorders and a lot more privileged parents trying to send their child to the 'best' school (not all too different from vaccine shopping where people try to get only the 'best' vaccine), which would overburden those schools and generally be to everyone's detriment.
If the good schools get overburdened, then they have 2 options.  They can either:

1) Buy out other schools.
2) Expand their own school.

They pay for this with waivers.

How school choice works is parents have a consistent government voucher to spend on any school they want.  If they homeschool the kid, they get to keep the money.  This would lead to more homeschooling, which I think is a good thing as homeschool kids tend to outperform public school kids (Turns Out, Homeschooled Kids Really Are Smarter Than Their Public School Peers - BrightHub Education).  I would have been preferred to be homeschooled I think.
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@TheUnderdog
As far as I can tell, this would rely on privatization of the school system, as I don't think I've heard of anything like this in a publicly owned school. 

Or the bad school could sell themselves to a good school.  If School A (which is run by company A) competes with school B (run by company B), and school A sucks, they could sell themselves to company B, so company B (the better company) runs both schools, enabling the typical student to be educated by the better of 2 school options.  If there are 10 schools, the 9 worse schools eventually sell themselves to the best school, and now most people have a better education.
This relies on the presumption that school B is better because company B has a better way of running the school and is capable of delivering a better education. I don't see any reason to suspect the success of a student would be related to the administration of the school. Rather, I think the success of a student is based on the quality of the teachers, the effectiveness of the curriculum (which I'm presuming is still standardized, because otherwise we would run into many other problems imo), and personal factors in the student's life.

My point is that, unless company B is simply able to hire better teachers and ensure that they perform well (which, if they could do, why wouldn't every school do that?) and would be able to get around the fact teacher's unions make it nearly impossible to fire an under-performing teacher, there is nothing that makes company B better than company A.

The only thing that differs between school A and school B is that school A (which I am using as a placeholder for all 'bad' schools) might be populated by mostly poor or marginalized students, might be in an area with a high crime rate or that is perceived as being 'unclean', might have lower scores on standardized tests, among other things. The only way I could see school B being an improvement is that they hoard the best teachers, which they would only be able to get from paying them the most money. This diverts money away from the students and forces unequal distribution of qualified teachers, forcing schools who can't afford those teachers because their student count is declining won't be able to catch up unless they divert even more money away from students.

If a school A is underperforming, the solution isn't to then have students leave school A, force school A to shutdown, bring students to school B where the same personal/socioeconomic factors would continue to exist, overburden school B, make them buy school A, place students into school A, and then be back in the exact same place. It's such a roundabout way to placate people who want their children to go to 'good' schools without changing anything and, during the transition, depriving schools that most need it of their funding. To me, it seems the logical conclusion is inequality and less money going towards actually helping students (even though I agree teachers should be paid more, a model surrounding the highest bidder is not the way to go).

If we want a better education, we need to improve the school system, not make it so that way an opinion that very well may have no basis in logic about what is a 'good' or 'bad' school determines the ability of said school to survive.
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I don’t think I could put into words how in favor of it I am. It’s probably my #2 issue right now and I really hope that the next republican president does something with school choice. I’m extremely biased on this topic because I know that 1) I want to have as many kids as I can afford and 2) they will not be attending public schools. 

The public schools have gotten so infiltrated by pseudo-religious zealots that I basically view it as a religion tax. I have to pay for these institutions even though their express purpose is to turn children against me and my values. And if I don’t want my children to be indoctrinated I have to pay for them to be educated privately even though I’m already paying for public schooling. I don’t think this is how things should be in a multi religious/multicultural society. There will never be peace until we collectively decide to stop trying to force our ideologies and religions down each other’s throats and let people associate as they wish. Unfortunately I’m not sure that will ever happen /: but school choice is a good and important start 
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@thett3
I don’t think I could put into words how in favor of it I am. It’s probably my #2 issue right now and I really hope that the next republican president does something with school choice. I’m extremely biased on this topic because I know that 1) I want to have as many kids as I can afford and 2) they will not be attending public schools. 

The simple fact that the vast majority of poor Blacks want school choice while the vast Majority of rich Whites oppose it is enough for me to support it.
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@Greyparrot
Public schools exist for the same reason institutions like the New York Times exist: the take the economic priorities of the ruling class and translate them into moral arguments. I can see why people wanted public schools but it’s an experiment that has obviously failed.

I mean you mention poor blacks, a little known fact is that some of the absolute worst school districts in the country actually have more than enough funding. Detroit spends almost $15k per student per year: https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/detroit-schools-spend-more-educate-less-than-other-us-urban-districts and the results are pitiful. Obviously it’s not working and if parents were given the choice if they had any sense at all they would use the money to better their kids in some other way. Imagine if every child had $150,000 to spend on technical school or apprenticeship programs. Or even just dumping that money into a retirement account lol, I 1000% would’ve taken that over my public education and mine was actually extremely good. It’s all so tiresome. If the government should be involved at all they should just be distributing money so that everyone can buy an education. 
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@thett3
I think it's implied when I say the vast majority of rich Whites oppose school choice I also mean to say the vast majority of rich White Democrats.

And of course, it's the rich that actually dictate political policies.
thett3
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Lmao I looked up the per pupil cost per year at my old school district, which was about the same as the cost per pupil in Detroit, multiplied it by 12 and then divided it by two to be conservative. If the “cost” of my public education, which began in 2000, had been dumped as a lump sum into the S&P with dividends reinvested it would be worth over $350k right now. Hmmm which would you rather have, $350,000 in your mid twenties or an education from the Detroit public schools? What a waste lol 

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I support public funding for education (of the parents choice) but I would absolutely argue that $50-100k per child invested on the day of their birth and inaccessible until retirement (or whatever), followed by the government throwing up it’s hands and saying “sorry you’re on your own for education” would be better than the status quo
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@thett3
School choice takes the central out of central planning.
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imagine not being able to choose which school you will go to lol
RationalMadman
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Schooling itself is what's flawed. You cannot properly help creative thinkers flourish in a regimented syllabus strict examination system.

Until we realise we can't ever have everyone ranked objectively, we'll begin to better analyse resumes and intelligence levels of creative students. Until then, they need to creatively endure the BS until they're adults and then make their own way in life if they can.
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@Greyparrot
School choice takes the central out of central planning.
Not really. While I would agree that this is a "step-up" from the previous scheme, as I understand it, this initiative is sanctioned with Federal Funds, which will inevitably create a Federal criterion which all schooling options must meet.

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@RationalMadman
Schooling itself is what's flawed. You cannot properly help creative thinkers flourish in a regimented syllabus strict examination system.
That doesn't mean that "schooling" is flawed. The same reason a creative thinker wouldn't flourish in a strict regimented system, a book-smart, hard-line thinker wouldn't flourish in a more open-standard environment. Education, pretty much like everything else, should be individually based, rather than conscripting children to subject themselves to indoctrination gulags, where they merely learn that which the State wants them to learn.

Until we realise we can't ever have everyone ranked objectively, we'll begin to better analyse resumes and intelligence levels of creative students. Until then, they need to creatively endure the BS until they're adults and then make their own way in life if they can.
Most Education standards, if not all, are just training to enter the corporate environment.
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@Athias
Not really. While I would agree that this is a "step-up" from the previous scheme, as I understand it, this initiative is sanctioned with Federal Funds, which will inevitably create a Federal criterion which all schooling options must meet.

Just like a Casino, Washington DC never loses.
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@ILikePie5
Here is something to watch this weekend.

It will take 2 generations of school competition to fix this.