Why is the LDS considered a cult and not a proper Christian denomination?

Author: Timid8967

Posts

Total: 90
Topic's author
#1
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
What are the primary points of similarity that put it in the Christian camp? And what are the points of doctrine which distinguish it from the traditional Christian position? And what are the unique and distinct perspectives of the Mormons that radically uplift it into weird territory? 

Please do not use this as a slanging board against the LDS.  Use it as an opportunity to compare and contrast and analyze the Mormons and the veracity of its doctrines.  
#2
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@fauxlaw
I suspect you might be able to address this question with the most authority.
#3
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@oromagi
@Timid8967
First, we prefer to not be referred to as "Mormons." That was tolerated for a long while, but it was recognized as one of the reasons why people not familiar with the church classify us as non-Christians. Officially, the Church is known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and members of the church are properly referred to as members of said church, by full name. We know Jesus Christ to be the Savior and Redeemer of the world, the only mortally begotten Son of the Father, who are, as well as the Holy Ghost, three distinct personages of perfect glory, who are one only in terms of their absolute unification of thought and action. Rather than repeat it all here, I will offer the following citation, called. The Articles of Faith:


These summarize our core beliefs.
#4
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967
Please do not use this as a slanging board against the LDS

And please, let us not forget that it was you said that.



Or forget this;

Dimtimtim wrote: Most people interpret the bible the same way.  This way people can understand each other and when contradictions arise which they do - then they all sit down together and agree that this is what it is saying - even when it is contradicting itself............


#5
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@oromagi
I suspect you[fauxlaw] might be able to address this question with the most authority.

Well, he is a "high priest". 

Relative to the Priesthood I hold, it is not a matter of what I consider. I am an ordained High Priest.
#36
Topic's author
#6
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@fauxlaw
First, we prefer to not be referred to as "Mormons."
So do you find the term Mormon derogatory? 

We know Jesus Christ to be the Savior and Redeemer of the world,

What does this mean? Savior and redeemer of what and from what? 

the only mortally begotten Son of the Father,
So this is in contrast to what traditional Christians would say is true.  For they would agree that Jesus is begotten - but eternally begotten. And they would also say that Jesus is not mortal.   


who are, as well as the Holy Ghost,
Is this the same as the Holy Spirit? 

three distinct personages of perfect glory, who are one only in terms of their absolute unification of thought and action.  
So would it be fair to say this is in contrast to the traditional Christian understanding of the Trinity. Three persons in One Godhead?



The Articles of Faith:


These summarize our core beliefs.

Thanks for supplying this document summary. But I am hopeful that you will be able to address the above responses. 

I think that you have provided several contrasts to Christianity.  What would be some of the similarities?
#7
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967
So this is in contrast to what traditional Christians would say is true. 

 Define a "traditional Christian " for us. And what is it they " say is true"?



I think that you have provided several contrasts to Christianity

 But haven't you made it clear often that ;


#36: Most people interpret the bible the same way.

 where as now you have pointed out yourself the "contrasts " and that they clearly do not?
#8
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Timid8967
It all depends upon who does the considering and who decides properness.

Who does?
Topic's author
#9
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
So this is in contrast to what traditional Christians would say is true. 

 Define a "traditional Christian " for us. And what is it they " say is true"?



I think that you have provided several contrasts to Christianity

 But haven't you made it clear often that ;


#36: Most people interpret the bible the same way.

 where as now you have pointed out yourself the "contrasts " and that they clearly do not?

Firstly, thanks for not dropping the bone.  

Secondly, I have asked fauxlaw a question. Let him answer first. He knows what a traditional christian is as I suspect most others do.  

Thirdly, again fauxlaw understands the contrasts. Let him answer first. 

There is nothing further of import or of new information in your post to address further. 
Topic's author
#10
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4
Although this might be true, I suggest there is an ordinary and typical position on traditional christianity. I have referred before to the largest umbrella of christian denominations in the world, the World Council of churches.  If this does not cover the aspect of traditional christian position, I don't know what will.  And I am certainly prepared to start there - and given this is a topic I initiated, I think that is fair. 


#11
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Timid8967
Well "typically", the central figure of Christianity is Jesus Christ.

And "ordinary" is what?....Given the schism and diversity of Christianity.

And the World Council of Churches is a bunch of pious folk, that presume to know something special.

As do all theists generally.

Perhaps the LDS just aren't prepared to pay the subscription fees.
#12
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Timid8967
So do you find the term Mormon derogatory? 
Not derogatory, just misdirected. Jesus Christ heads the church, not Mormon, a Book of mormon prophet, circa early 5th century CE, named for him as he was its editor from a much larger group of records.

Savior and redeemer of what and from what? 
Savior of man from perpetual death following mortality by resurrection to life everlasting in perfect bodies, and redeemed from the influence of evil forever more, conditional on keeping the commandments of God.

Jesus is begotten - but eternally begotten. And they would also say that Jesus is not mortal.   
To beget is to be born in the flesh. We are born but once, and birth does not extend beyond that moment, so no one is beget eternally, not even Christ. Christ is no longer mortal, having died and resurrected, the first of all to do so, and the promise to all men, women, and children who die - all of us.

Is this the same as the Holy Spirit? 
Yes, the same.

Three persons in One Godhead?
Yes, as long as it is understood by this that we mean three separate, distinct beings who comprise the Godhead, not one being with aliases, as some believe.

similarities
That Jesus is the Christ, the living Son of a living God, the Father.

However, there is much with which we disagree. For example, we do not believe we bare the stain of Adam and Eve for their transgressions, but only for our own. To believe that we bear Adam's stain is a denial of the Atonement, that Jesus overcame death, but also our pain and suffering, disappointments, mourning for losses, suffering by the actions of others who abuse us, our failures of mortality, virtually everything that happens in our mortal lives that deter us and delay our progression. We are spared the ongoing misery of death, itself, to rise in the resurrection as perfect beings, ready to move on in that progression. 

Not a similarity, in fact, it may be somewhat unique among Christians is that we believe the potential of our progression is eternal; thaat we, by our obedience in this life, can earn the right to become gods and goddesses ourselves, to be not only in the image of God, by to be like him.

We may also be somewhat unique in the firm belief that we have a Mother in Heaven, whom we should also revere.
#13
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@fauxlaw
Are you a polygamist?
#14
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,611
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
In the coverage of Chad and Lori Vallow Daybell and her missing children, JJ Vallow and Tylee Ryan, people who have known them say they have extreme religious beliefs and are members of a doomsday “cult.”
But the nature of the reported cult is hard to define, especially since the Daybells have not spoken to the media. 
What we do know is Chad and Lori are or have been members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
And even though fauxlaw is a High Priest, he says he does not know them.

#15
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
@RM

No. That practice was ended by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the 1890s.
#16
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,611
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
The founder of the Mormon church, Joseph Smith, wed as many as 40 wives, including some who were already married and one as young as 14 years old. What a joker God is.
#17
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@fauxlaw
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I have to say I'm surprised by the ignorance demonstrated here and a little put off by the tone.   Was this a sincere religious inquiry or just a pack of rhetorical velociraptors looking to cull an individual from the herd?  I'm not so sure now.

Damn, is there anything online less Christian then a RELIGION forum?


#18
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@oromagi
Thanks. Yeah, I for one would certainly like to see more explored of Islam, let alone Asian religions. I know very little about the latter. 
#19
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@fauxlaw
Do LDS regard Jesus as sacred?
#20
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
@RM
Yes, we regard Jesus as a God, and the Son of God in the flesh. We also acknowledge him as the Creator, under the direction of God the father. Think in terms of making a movie; God, the Father is the Producer, the pre-mortal Christ is the director, responsible for the entire production effort. In that role, Jesus Christ is also Jehovah, the God of the O.T. Finally, as Jesus is the Son of God in the flesh, we also consider him an elder brother of us all, since all, including Jesus Christ, are spiritual children of God, the Father.
#21
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@fauxlaw
So Mormon = LDS yes?

What renders JW unequal to LDS then? I know I can use a search engine and already did, I am curious what 'Jehovah' signifies to LDS as opposed to JW.
#22
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967
I have asked fauxlaw a question. Let him answer first. He knows what a traditional christian is as I suspect most others do.  

 But I have simply asked you to define a "traditional Christian"?  You see, I haven't forgot that you have dismissed the bible after just one reading.  So I will remind you that Jesus himself not once in the bible even mentions the words - Christian or Christianity and neither do a single one of the four gospels? They were Jews you see.


#23
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@fauxlaw
Savior and redeemer of what and from what? 
Savior of man from perpetual death following mortality by resurrection to life everlasting in perfect bodies, and redeemed from the influence of evil forever more, conditional on keeping the commandments of God.

What a shame your all powerful god didn't think of doing this way back in the garden of Eden, isn't it, High Priest? Think of all the mindless slaughter he wouldn't have had to command us mere mortals to commit on his command for "his name sake" over the last billion years?

Topic's author
#24
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4
Ok.
Topic's author
#25
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@fauxlaw
Hi fauxlaw, thanks for responding. 

So do you find the term Mormon derogatory? 
Not derogatory, just misdirected. Jesus Christ heads the church, not Mormon, a Book of mormon prophet, circa early 5th century CE, named for him as he was its editor from a much larger group of records.
Ok. 

Savior and redeemer of what and from what? 
Savior of man from perpetual death following mortality by resurrection to life everlasting in perfect bodies, and redeemed from the influence of evil forever more, conditional on keeping the commandments of God.
You don't believe in Hell though do you? So is it the case that everyone now goes to heaven? Including Adolph Hitler? 

Jesus is begotten - but eternally begotten. And they would also say that Jesus is not mortal.   
To beget is to be born in the flesh. We are born but once, and birth does not extend beyond that moment, so no one is beget eternally, not even Christ. Christ is no longer mortal, having died and resurrected, the first of all to do so, and the promise to all men, women, and children who die - all of us.
Ok. So this is clearly a contrast from the traditional position of Jesus being God?    


Is this the same as the Holy Spirit? 
Yes, the same.
Ok. Would the Holy Spirit in the LDS be the same as the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church?


Three persons in One Godhead?
Yes, as long as it is understood by this that we mean three separate, distinct beings who comprise the Godhead, not one being with aliases, as some believe.
Ok. Another contrast with the traditional understanding of the Trinity.  


similarities
That Jesus is the Christ, the living Son of a living God, the Father.

However, there is much with which we disagree. For example, we do not believe we bare the stain of Adam and Eve for their transgressions, but only for our own. To believe that we bear Adam's stain is a denial of the Atonement, that Jesus overcame death, but also our pain and suffering, disappointments, mourning for losses, suffering by the actions of others who abuse us, our failures of mortality, virtually everything that happens in our mortal lives that deter us and delay our progression. We are spared the ongoing misery of death, itself, to rise in the resurrection as perfect beings, ready to move on in that progression. 

Not a similarity, in fact, it may be somewhat unique among Christians is that we believe the potential of our progression is eternal; thaat we, by our obedience in this life, can earn the right to become gods and goddesses ourselves, to be not only in the image of God, by to be like him.

We may also be somewhat unique in the firm belief that we have a Mother in Heaven, whom we should also revere.

Thanks for that fauxlaw.  You sound a little catholic - mother in heaven. So you stand in the chain of being theology? Man evolving into gods?  

Yes, there are many differences between traditional Christianity and LDS.  

For the record, how would you describe a cult? 

Topic's author
#26
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
I have asked fauxlaw a question. Let him answer first. He knows what a traditional christian is as I suspect most others do.  

 But I have simply asked you to define a "traditional Christian"?  You see, I haven't forgot that you have dismissed the bible after just one reading.  So I will remind you that Jesus himself not once in the bible even mentions the words - Christian or Christianity and neither do a single one of the four gospels? They were Jews you see.
Yes, I saw that.  But I am not here to argue a point.  Merely to ask questions.  Thanks for the reminder, but irrelevant to the topic.  Why don't you answer the question for yourself? After all you you are the one bragging about your brilliance having studied religion and the bible for 40 years.  "but I have studied religion for over 40 years. So do not make the mistake of believing I know nothing of the scriptures." https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/506/post-links/22710
#27
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,354
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Timid8967
Personally, I never really thought of them as much of a cult, but I suppose I also haven't paid close attention to the differences in denominations and popularity of Christianity.
Never went to church there, but in the city I'm from, Boy Scouts stored their stuff in a LDS facility, scoutmaster was LDS, and a number of the scouts, but not all of them.
Never brought up religion in conversation, that I recall.
Nice enough people.
Topic's author
#28
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
  So this is in contrast to what traditional Christians would say is true. 


Define a "traditional Christian " for us. And what is it they " say is true"?


Why don't you answer the question for yourself?

 Because I have politely asked you to. And it not "irrelevant" to the thread, your own thread, if you have raised the point about what YOU have called the
"traditional Christian", on your own thread, which you have and did.


  But I am not here to argue a point.
So don't argue, simply explain your definition of " traditional Christian". 
And I am not arguing anything.... at all.   I have asked you to explain your comment.

This topic is about Mormons. It is not about traditional Christians.  If you want to make it about traditional Christians, then you define what traditional Christians are. You as I said above are the one who brags about your brilliance having studied religion and the bible for 40 years.  "but I have studied religion for over 40 years. So do not make the mistake of believing I know nothing of the scriptures." https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/506/post-links/22710

#29
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967
  So this is in contrast to what traditional Christians would say is true. 


Define a "traditional Christian " for us. And what is it they " say is true"?


Why don't you answer the question for yourself?

 Because I have politely asked you to. And it not "irrelevant" to the thread, your own thread, if you have raised the point about what YOU have called the
"traditional Christian", on your own thread, which you have and did.


  But I am not here to argue a point.
So don't argue, simply explain your definition of " traditional Christian". 
And I am not arguing anything.... at all.   I have asked you to explain your comment.


This topic is about Mormons. It is not about traditional Christians

Yes, traditional Christians that you introduced into the thread, your own thread.



After all you you are the one bragging about your brilliance having studied religion and the bible for 40 years. 


 "but I have studied religion for over 40 years. So do not make the mistake of believing I know nothing of the scriptures." https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/506/post-links/22710


Didn't you once not so long ago on this thread asked members :  "Please do not use this as a slanging board "#1 ?    It hasn't taken you long to start dragging your own thread down into a slanging match has it?  I did ask you to remember that it was you that said that. .#4 Stephen


You can call it  "bragging" if you wish. I would call it simply stating a fact. But yes. I have studied the scriptures for over four decades. And this why I am puzzled that you, after reading the bible just once AND dismissing it ,  can go on to talk about what it is a "traditional Christian" is, when the supposed leader of the Christian movement never once even says the word's Christian, or Christianity, you see.   And it is this type of question that comes after studying the scriptures for over four decades with bible ignorant and  dismissive "anti theists" such as you.  You still are a ardent "anti theist", aren't you? Or was that yet another of your rigid statements that you wish you hadn't ever made!?

 If you do not wish to be questioned on your own comments don't comment or at least think out your comments before  you post.

 And I remind you once more to keep your own wish in mind, before you begin to derail your own thread simply because you have been challenged.:

Timid8967 wrote: "Please do not use this as a slanging board"... #1

OK

Topic's author
#30
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
  So this is in contrast to what traditional Christians would say is true. 


Define a "traditional Christian " for us. And what is it they " say is true"?


Why don't you answer the question for yourself?

 Because I have politely asked you to. And it not "irrelevant" to the thread, your own thread, if you have raised the point about what YOU have called the
"traditional Christian", on your own thread, which you have and did.


  But I am not here to argue a point.
So don't argue, simply explain your definition of " traditional Christian". 
And I am not arguing anything.... at all.   I have asked you to explain your comment.


This topic is about Mormons. It is not about traditional Christians

Yes, traditional Christians that you introduced into the thread, your own thread.



After all you you are the one bragging about your brilliance having studied religion and the bible for 40 years. 


 "but I have studied religion for over 40 years. So do not make the mistake of believing I know nothing of the scriptures." https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/506/post-links/22710


Didn't you once not so long ago on this thread asked members :  "Please do not use this as a slanging board "#1 ?    It hasn't taken you long to start dragging your own thread down into a slanging match has it?  I did ask you to remember that it was you that said that. .#4 Stephen


You can call it  "bragging" if you wish. I would call it simply stating a fact. But yes. I have studied the scriptures for over four decades. And this why I am puzzled that you, after reading the bible just once AND dismissing it ,  can go on to talk about what it is a "traditional Christian" is, when the supposed leader of the Christian movement never once even says the word's Christian, or Christianity, you see.   And it is this type of question that comes after studying the scriptures for over four decades with bible ignorant and  dismissive "anti theists" such as you.  You still are a ardent "anti theist", aren't you? Or was that yet another of your rigid statements that you wish you hadn't ever said?

 If you do not wish to be questioned on your own comments don't comment or at least think out your comments before  you post.

 And I remind you once more to keep your own wish in mind, before you begin to derail your own thread simply because you have been challenged.:

Timid8967 wrote: "Please do not use this as a slanging board"... #1

OK

Stephen, this is a topic about Mormons.  If you want to introduce Traditional Christians, fine, just define your terms.  You have "four decades with bible ignorant and  dismissive "anti theists".https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6303/post-links/271971

You are the one with the bragging rights.  Go for it.