Luke 15

Author: Kadin 3 years ago

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Kadin

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Kadin

06.24.2021 01:05PM

I have heard people relate or describe Black Lives Matter as described in Luke 15:

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” Then Jesus told them this parable: “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Do you think this is similar to the message of Black Lives Matter? When 100 sheep go missing, Jesus leaves the 99 and goes looking for the 1. The other sheep wonder, "don't we matter" which is similar to All Lives Matter. Of course the other sheep matter, but they're not the ones in danger so they are not the ones Jesus is paying attention to.

Unless you believe there is no history of racism in this country with lingering impacts, or that black people do not have any inherent disadvantages or discrimination due to skin color, I could see how one would relate the passages.

Directly after this passage follows the Parable of the Lost Coin and the Parable of the Prodigal Son. They reflect the importance of redemption and asking forgiveness. They analogize persons who are lost souls, and the significance and joy of them finding their way through God's grace. It is specifically the sinners or non-believers that need God most, so there is special attention paid to those people despite being less than ideal models of God.

I'm not saying black people are lost souls, but what do these passages mean to you in relation to the BLM movement, or having compassion for people who do not glorify God or live by His example? The Bible is filled with stories about empathy, compassion and forgiveness even for those who are not worthy. The lesson is to exemplify God's grace to others, and by doing so you and them can be saved. How can we be more Christian in our politics or social politics to live by God's word?

TheUnderdog

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TheUnderdog

06.24.2021 10:46PM

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@Kadin

I am an atheist and biblical passages shouldn't dictate legal opinions. But the police present such a minor threat to black lives that if I were black, I wouldn't worry about getting killed by the police. The lifetime odds of a black person getting killed by the police is .1%. If you think this is too high, you should never drive again because your lifetime odds of dying in a car crash are much greater than this. A little bit of risk is acceptable.

Dr.Franklin

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Dr.Franklin

06.25.2021 02:01AM

not even close, im pretty sure its to celebrate when someone lost is back to God and is found

if it was in relation to BLM, the sheep farm would have already burned down

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Kadin

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Kadin

06.25.2021 01:08PM

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@TheUnderdog

It is my understanding that Black Lives Matter is not solely about police brutality. It's about people getting away with killing black people, suggesting black lives are not valued as much as white people in the criminal justice system overall. George Zimmerman got away with killing Trayvon Martin. Soon Ja Du killed 15 year old Latasha Harlins, was found guilty of voluntary manslaughter and received NO jail time. The list goes on. These are black teenagers who were needlessly killed and their perpetrators got away with it virtually scot free, while many black people rot in jail for things like drug offenses. It's not about the likelihood of abuse by officers (though that plays a role), it's not about black on black crime which certainly is a problem -- it's about the ways in which historically many people received NO penalties or a slap on the wrist for beating or taking black lives. Who knows if the killers of Ahmaud Arbery would have even been charged had it not been for public pressure. It wasn't until the video of his killing went viral months after the incident that the perpetrators were even arrested and now being tried for felony murder. That's why BLM is bringing things to the media spotlight. The seeming lack of regard for black lives in a handful of ways is what BLM is about, not just cops.

That being said, I wasn't asking for a legal or political opinion at all in this thread, and I would prefer to keep that to the Politics forum. This is the Religion forum. I was asking what Christians thought about this Bible passage in relation to All Lives Matter.

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Kadin

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Kadin

06.25.2021 01:29PM

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@Dr.Franklin

not even close, im pretty sure its to celebrate when someone lost is back to God and is found

I agree. What about the reference to the 99 sheep asking "don't we matter" and Jesus pointing out that He needs to focus on the 1 sheep in danger? That is not my favorite verse in relation to BLM anyway. Another one I like is, “Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality" (2 Corinthians 8:13-15). There are several that have spoken to me.

if it was in relation to BLM, the sheep farm would have already burned down

Many times destruction of property is a form of political protest, and there are references to the burning of idolatrous things in the Bible. However I do not think it is righteous.

EtrnlVw

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EtrnlVw

06.25.2021 01:49PM

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@Kadin

Sure why not, many Biblical passages and or teachings are just overarching principles using specific illustrations but that can be applied to a myriad of scenarios. Of course BLM would fit into that parable, black people have been subjected to discrimination, murder and heinous crimes while others lived in peace. Blacks are not the only people who experience discrimination but certainly they qualify as ones who Jesus left the 99 for.

What goes around comes around though and in many ways whites will be the ones who suffer more than minorities, they may even become the minority.

Dr.Franklin

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Dr.Franklin

06.25.2021 01:51PM

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@Kadin

its much more complicated than a sheep parable, anyone could use it for their goals for example, the 1 sheep is the lost working class american in the rust belt and trump is bringing them back.

Many times destruction of property is a form of political protest, and there are references to the burning of idolatrous things in the Bible. However I do not think it is righteous.

are small businesses idolatrous?

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Kadin

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Kadin

06.25.2021 03:04PM

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@Dr.Franklin

its much more complicated than a sheep parable, anyone could use it for their goals for example, the 1 sheep is the lost working class american in the rust belt and trump is bringing them back.

Nobody said "all classes matter" when attention was given to the poor or working class. The Bible is filled with stories about empathy, compassion and forgiveness even for those who are not worthy. The lesson is to exemplify God's grace to others, and by doing so you and them can be saved. How can we be more Christian in our politics or social politics to live by God's word? Is there a Bible passage that gives you guidance in this area?

are small businesses idolatrous?

No, that is part of why I don't find that behavior to be righteous.

TheUnderdog

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TheUnderdog

06.25.2021 03:25PM

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@Kadin

It is my understanding that Black Lives Matter is not solely about police brutality. It's about people getting away with killing black people, suggesting black lives are not valued as much as white people in the criminal justice system overall.

Very few people seriously believe that blacks are worth less than white people in the criminal justice system. Blacks are more likely to end up in jail, but there are lurking variables to this. The presence of single motherhood is something that effects the black community more and this is why you see blacks being more likely to commit crime; because people in single motherhood environments are more likely to commit crime. Also people in urban areas are more likely to commit crime whether black or white.

George Zimmerman got away with killing Trayvon Martin. Soon Ja Du killed 15 year old Latasha Harlins, was found guilty of voluntary manslaughter and received NO jail time. The list goes on. These are black teenagers who were needlessly killed and their perpetrators got away with it virtually scot free, while many black people rot in jail for things like drug offenses.

While people shouldn't be punished for mere drugs use, the examples you point out are very rare. If BLM cared about black lives, they would want to end single motherhood. A majority of black people want to end single motherhood, but BLM doesn't really push this message even though it would help out black people more than bringing justice to the extremely rare events that you brought up.

Who knows if the killers of Ahmaud Arbery would have even been charged had it not been for public pressure.

40% of all murderers get away with their crime(There’s a 40 percent chance you’ll get away with murder in America - Vox). It is very easy to assume that the killers of Ahumnd Arbery and the other cases that you mentioned merely got lucky rather than the criminal justice system being racist. There have been black people that murdered white people and got away with it. This isn't because of racism, but instead because of the need for evidence to convict someone of murder (and government waste). Privatizing the police will bring this proportion down.

I was asking what Christians thought about this Bible passage in relation to All Lives Matter.

Christians shouldn't form their policy opinions based on the bible. This is not a theocracy and I don't know too many people that want America to become a theocracy.

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Dr.Franklin

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Dr.Franklin

06.25.2021 05:35PM

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@Kadin

Nobody said "all classes matter" when attention was given to the poor or working class. The Bible is filled with stories about empathy, compassion and forgiveness even for those who are not worthy. The lesson is to exemplify God's grace to others, and by doing so you and them can be saved. How can we be more Christian in our politics or social politics to live by God's word? Is there a Bible passage that gives you guidance in this area?

The bible does teach empathy and compassion but it also doesnt tolerate sin. To be Christian in our policies is to uphold God.

what do you think of pslams 37:13?

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#11

Kadin

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Kadin

06.25.2021 08:34PM

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@TheUnderdog

Very few people seriously believe that blacks are worth less than white people in the criminal justice system.

I agree that most people do not believe that at face value, but that does not change the data or high profile cases where beatings and killings of black people were captured on video and not punished. Can you think of many cases where a white person's killer was given a slap on the wrist or no punishment at all? (There are probably a handful of cop cases like that, as police are routinely given the benefit of the doubt when they shoot people.) It seems BLM brings up many grievances, and some are much more legitimate than others.

If BLM cared about black lives, they would want to end single motherhood. BLM doesn't really push this message even though it would help out black people more than bringing justice to the extremely rare events that you brought up.

It is pretty disheartening to see someone disparage a legitimate grievance by bringing up a red herring meant to shame the group which holds the legitimate grievance in the first place. That would be like the working class pointing out some grievances with the elites or public policy that hurts them, and in response saying if they really cared about their prosperity and security they would pipe down, get a better education and find a new job to focus on their own shortcomings. It's true that everyone should be accountable for their advancement and behavior, but it's also true that some people experience hardships that can be acknowledged and addressed by society, government, etc. Not every situation can be remedied, but patterns can tell a story we might hope to improve.

I'm also not sure what BLM can do to address single motherhood outside of encourage present fathers, and look to diminish unwanted pregnancy through sex education and accessible birth control. I believe they are doing all of those things.

40% of all murderers get away with their crime

This is another red herring but I'll address it. It turns out there is racial disparity in the solving of murder cases as well. Chicago does a terrible job at solving murders, especially when the victim is black. That is actually the trend of every major city. There are several reasons for this trend, but it contributes to the idea that black lives are not worthy enough to invest in solving their murder cases.

There have been black people that murdered white people and got away with it. This isn't because of racism, but instead because of the need for evidence to convict someone of murder (and government waste). Privatizing the police will bring this proportion down.

I don't agree with privatizing police, but this seems like a tangent. Of course some people get away with killing white people. I'm saying there are many cases where a perpetrator is caught beating or killing a black person on video (such as the case with Ahmaud Arbery) where there IS evidence, and routinely getting away with it anyway. Can you name many cases where that has happened to white people outside of police killings?

Christians shouldn't form their policy opinions based on the bible. This is not a theocracy and I don't know too many people that want America to become a theocracy.

Again, I said nothing about public policy. I'm in the religion forum asking Christians to interpret their views on biblical passages as it relates to social justice issues and the way they see the world.

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#12

Kadin

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Kadin

06.25.2021 08:47PM

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@Dr.Franklin

The bible does teach empathy and compassion but it also doesnt tolerate sin. To be Christian in our policies is to uphold God.

The Bible is critical of sin, but Jesus is clear about loving sinners and the way we should treat and respond to them. How do you think we can be more Christian in our politics or social politics to live by God's word? Is there a Bible passage that gives you guidance in this area?

what do you think of pslams 37:13?

We must understand that a lot of language used in Psalms and several other places in the Old Testament is very poetic and anthropomorphic. For example, when God asks Adam "where are you," we know that God is omniscient and therefore knows where Adam is. However, that language is used to highlight a point that Adam hid himself from God. Another example is when the Bible refers to God relenting on multiple occasions, even though we know that God likely does not change His mind. This language is used to convey a story in a way that people at the time hearing these stories could understand certain concepts and grasp the lessons. When we hear about the Lord laughing at the wicked, it's not so much God mocking those people and reveling in their despair. Rather, it shows that God is unwavering in His word and commitment to His people. When those who hate godliness make plans to attack godly people, this passage says in response God simply laughs, for He knows His Way is the truth and those evil schemes are doomed to fail.

What does this have to do with Black Lives Matter?

#13

Dr.Franklin

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Dr.Franklin

06.27.2021 01:41PM

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@Kadin

The Bible is critical of sin, but Jesus is clear about loving sinners and the way we should treat and respond to them. How do you think we can be more Christian in our politics or social politics to live by God's word? Is there a Bible passage that gives you guidance in this area?

well the bible teaches to hate the sin but love the sinner as our neighbor.

What does this have to do with Black Lives Matter?
0

well god laughs at BLM for their plans are wicked

422 days later

#14

Shila

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Shila

08.24.2022 01:05PM

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@Kadin

I have heard people relate or describe Black Lives Matter as described in Luke 15:

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” Then Jesus told them this parable: “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Do you think this is similar to the message of Black Lives Matter? When 100 sheep go missing, Jesus leaves the 99 and goes looking for the 1. The other sheep wonder, "don't we matter" which is similar to All Lives Matter. Of course the other sheep matter, but they're not the ones in danger so they are not the ones Jesus is paying attention to.

Unless you believe there is no history of racism in this country with lingering impacts, or that black people do not have any inherent disadvantages or discrimination due to skin color, I could see how one would relate the passages.

Directly after this passage follows the Parable of the Lost Coin and the Parable of the Prodigal Son. They reflect the importance of redemption and asking forgiveness. They analogize persons who are lost souls, and the significance and joy of them finding their way through God's grace. It is specifically the sinners or non-believers that need God most, so there is special attention paid to those people despite being less than ideal models of God.

I'm not saying black people are lost souls, but what do these passages mean to you in relation to the BLM movement, or having compassion for people who do not glorify God or live by His example? The Bible is filled with stories about empathy, compassion and forgiveness even for those who are not worthy. The lesson is to exemplify God's grace to others, and by doing so you and them can be saved. How can we be more Christian in our politics or social politics to live by God's word?

The Bible was not very effective at reducing antisemitism even though the Jews were Gods chosen people. God established a covenant with the Jews and sent them prophets to deliver them from their suffering.

Despite these divine interventions the Jews lived in Exile throughout their history.

To look for parables in the Bible that apply to the BLM and uncover the racism and slavery the blacks have endured would prepare Christians for the future where by 2030 the majority of Christian will be Africans living in Africa.

Will the BLM absorbs Christianity and treat the whites as lost souls and show compassion for these people who did not glorify God or live by His example?

The Bible is filled with stories about empathy, compassion and forgiveness even for those who are not worthy. The lesson is to exemplify God's grace to others, and by doing so blacks and whites can be saved.

The fact that Christianity is shifting to Africa is evidence Christianity is failing in western countries. Will these failed Christians be seen by the BLM as analogous to the Parable of the Lost Coin and the Parable of the Prodigal Son? They reflect the importance of redemption and asking forgiveness. They analogize persons who are lost souls, and the significance and joy of them finding their way through God's grace. It is specifically the sinners or non-believers that need God most, so there is special attention paid to those people despite being less than ideal models of God.

The true test would the the dream MLK had: “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”

Going back to the parable. I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one black man George Floyd receiving Justice than over ninety-nine white righteous persons who do not repent.