Who is the Observer?

Author: EtrnlVw

Posts

Total: 52
Topic's author
#1
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
Atheists, who is the observer of the mind and body? is the "brain" the observer? who (or what) is observing your experience?

Theists (or spiritualists), who is the observer of the mind, body and emotions? is that "observer" distinct from the brain and the senses of the body (soul/spirit)? is the observer or the soul itself distinct from God (Creator)?

#2
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
2
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
2
2
Atheists, who is the observer of the mind and body? is the "brain" the observer? who (or what) is observing your experience?
What does that even mean? What observer are you talking about? How can a brain observe? What experience are you talking about?

#3
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@EtrnlVw
The conscious experience can never be explained or communicated. It can have the result of it (the shown personality) transposed onto an artificial intelligence replica of a person (more feasible means of 'immortality' without having the problem of overpopulation or people fighting over who gets to live or not) but there is no way to genuinely show others you actually have an experienced personhood looking out from the inside of your eyes no matter what words you use or actions you do.
#4
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
I dunno.

Divine spark?

Some would say.


#5
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@EtrnlVw
 who is the observer of the mind, body and emotions?
I am.

is that "observer" distinct from the brain and the senses of the body (soul/spirit)?
Yes.

is the observer or the soul itself distinct from God (Creator)?
Yes.
Topic's author
#6
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Goldtop
Without an observer, no experience would be possible. No thought, no emotion, no feeling could be experienced without an observer/knower of that experience in the same way a mind would be useless without someone observing that mind and making sense of things within it. Claiming the brain creates consciousness (which I'm assuming would be your position) is claiming the brain creates the one observing the experiences that you have. That means those who would claim that, are claiming the brain is an entity, or observer.... how does the brain create an observer and can you show how that works precisely? what activity/impulses within a brain could create an entity or observer is my question? and as you know of course, my position is that the brain does not create a conscious observer, rather confines the observers experience to physical form/body. That is because in all possible scenarios a brain as well as brain activity....neurons or electrical impulses could never create you as a conscious being, it cannot create a conscious observer. You (the soul) are the observer of the body, the body nor the brain did not create your inner being, you inhabited it.

The reason we can measure activity within a brain is because there IS activity within a brain just like there is activity within a circuit board. The brain is a component you use to correlate your experience here in this body but it is no more than a control panel or component it has no real awareness in and of itself, the brain is your connection/interface from the soul to the physical world just like a circuit panel is the connection of electricity to a building. It's needed to confine your experience and flow or consciousness but just like the circuit panel, it does not create electricity it only harnesses it and directs its flow and the same with the human brain of course.

"Descriptions like this also reveal why neuroscience will always struggle to study consciousness in all its private glory. How are we supposed to study something that is a "hidden hermitage"? We never actually see consciousness. All we see are its consequences in behavior. So when we look for the neural correlates of consciousness, what we are really looking for are the neural correlates of certain measurable behaviors that we think are closely related with consciousness"

This is correct above, you can't study a soul/conscious awareness with a material medium or ideology because it has no physical nature other than awareness and we see that awareness play out through the physical brain like we would see electrical activity in a circuit panel.... that "panel" regulates and controls that flow of electricity within that house or confined form for it to function as it does just as the brain does. What is being measured within a brain is just the consequences of the conscious soul experiencing through it, so that is all you are left to examine outside of spirituality unfortunately is activity within the brain. Unfortunately only because you don't want to acknowledge the origin of the conscious soul. 

Topic's author
#7
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
"is the observer or the soul itself distinct from God (Creator)?"

Yes. 

Can you show how that works? perhaps I should have asked, is the very nature of the soul distinct from the nature of God?


Topic's author
#8
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Mopac
I dunno.

Divine spark?

Some would say.

You don't know what a soul is? or where consciousness originates?

Topic's author
#9
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@RationalMadman
The conscious experience and the soul can both be articulated and communicated. Why not? they have a nature and an origin and so they can be known and explained. But from the source of spirituality, it's the only source that can expand on it and reach it. Consciousness has been articulated through spiritual sources for ages. 
Topic's author
#10
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Goldtop
#11
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@EtrnlVw
No matter what you do or say I can never know or experience there being someone inside your head.
#12
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
2
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
2
2
Observe - to see, watch... to see or learn something... to watch, view, or note for a scientific
So, based on the definition of the word, your post makes no sense. Brains cannot observe, eyes observe and then pass on that information to the brain for synthesis. So, the "observer" of the mind makes no sense because the mind is the working of the brain and we cannot observe that unless we have specific technologies to do so. So, the only "Who" that might be observing our "experiences" are other people.

Does this answer your question?

#13
Shed12
Shed12's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 72
0
0
4
Shed12's avatar
Shed12
0
0
4
Nothing.
#14
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@EtrnlVw
A holon (Greek: ὅλον, holon neuter form of ὅλος, holos "whole") is something that is simultaneously a whole and a part. 

Koestler proposed the word holon to describe the hybrid nature of sub-wholes and parts within in vivo systems. From this perspective, holons exist simultaneously as self-contained wholes in relation to their sub-ordinate parts, and as dependent parts when considered from the inverse direction.
Koestler also says that holons are self-reliant units that possess a degree of independence and can handle contingencies without asking higher authorities for instructions. I.e. they have a degree of autonomy. These holons are also simultaneously subject to control from one or more of these higher authorities. The first property ensures that holons are stable forms that are able to withstand disturbances, while the latter property signifies that they are intermediate forms, providing a context for the proper functionality for the larger whole.

This is the way I see it, EtrnlVv, we are a part of God, but distinct at the same time.

#15
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
@ET
Does your observer live on your god worlds? LOL
#16
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,274
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
My mind is the observer of my mind and body.
#17
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@EtrnlVw
Maybe I think I know, but I'm also fine with mystery.

Topic's author
#18
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Castin
My mind is the observer of my mind and body.

So you're saying then the mind is "you"? Would you consider that the mind is not an entity or a being (you) but rather mechanical in nature like a machine? kind of like a vehicle, where you are the driver and observer of it and not IT itself.....Can you show me the mechanics of how a mind (which I would assume you believe is created by the brain) produces or creates a conscious, sentient being? by what processes does products of matter become/transform into conscious awareness? I'd prefer you explain it and not paste some link because I'm going to ask you specific questions. I want to know at what point, does a product of matter, whatever it is becomes a living entity.

You can observe/control what takes place in the mind from an observation point just like you can control what you do with a computer or a vehicle from an observation point, or even a piece of machinery. The mind is more like a storage area that categorizes and labels what you experience through memory and emotions. Much like a library in fact and we both know libraries do not create conscious beings...….you are the observer (librarian) of the mind (library), the mind does not create your conscious awareness you are a soul that is looking through the mind and body, observing it from an observation point which is first conscious.
On the other hand and unaware, someone else could/can be controlled by the mind (machine) through the repetition of thought, perception and experience which creates behavioral patterns, not knowing they are following thoughts and emotions and those two things lead them like dogs on a collar unaware. Despite that, the mind (or brain) does not create consciousness or sentient beings, we can either control and use the mind, or the mind can eventually control the user and even terminate it in this experience, that is how powerful a machine the mind is but again, it is no more than a machine. The soul uses the mind to categorize and label its experiences in this realm through emotion and memory and the brain is the component that correlates and confines the souls experience to a physical body much like a circuit panel confines the flow of electricity to a building or machine. But electricity, the soul (consciousness) and energy exists independently of form and object.

Topic's author
#19
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@RationalMadman
No matter what you do or say I can never know or experience there being someone inside your head.

We are all alone in our experience as individuals and as God as well yes, that is not what I meant though. What I meant was that consciousness or the nature of consciousness can be articulated objectively and explained. It has an origin and it has a nature and that is not the brain. The brain does not create conscious beings, the brain simply confines our experience to this realm and to a body.


Topic's author
#20
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Shed12
Nothing.

"Nothing" is an observer? or are you not an observer? 
#21
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@EtrnlVw
I get that you think the brain is the representation and not the means and that, in your eyes, neurons firing are merely physicalised soul-pulses but I'm sorry to say that it's more probable that it's the other way around as proven by neurological studies of people who had damage to the skull and such having severe alterations in personality.

Topic's author
#22
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@janesix
This is the way I see it, EtrnlVv, we are a part of God, but distinct at the same time.

I agree with that because we are essentially a reflection of the whole trapped within duality experiencing an individual experience so we are not in a form which perceives the All....but, the point I'm getting at is the very nature of what you are that we are from that "All", and the very nature of you is not distinct from God. Suppose I took a glob of clay (which represents myself) and created a little separate object of clay that had a form that was unique from mine, yet an expression of my own desires and heart....would that piece of clay no longer be clay?
Same thing with the Creator, the soul is a piece or a tiny fragment/expression of God and then sent into the worlds of duality but all things come out of a singular Being or Reality. Kind of like these definitions below....

Brahman-
"connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe.[1][2][3] In major schools of Hindu philosophy, it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists.[2][4][5] It is the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes.[1][6][7] Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe."
Brahman is discussed in Hindu texts with the concept of Atman (Soul, Self),[10][17] personal,[note 3] impersonal[note 4] or Para Brahman,[note 5] or in various combinations of these qualities depending on the philosophical school.[18] In dualistic schools of Hinduism such as the theistic Dvaita Vedanta, Brahman is different from Atman (soul) in each being.[5][19][20] In non-dual schools such as the Advaita Vedanta, Brahman is identical to the Atman, is everywhere and inside each living being, and there is connected spiritual oneness in all existence."

Atman-
"is a Sanskrit word that means inner self or soul.[1][2][3] In Hindu philosophy, especially in the Vedanta school of Hinduism, Ātman is the first principle,[4] the true self of an individual beyond identification with phenomena, the essence of an individual. In order to attain liberation (moksha), a human being must acquire self-knowledge (atma jnana), which is to realize that one's true self (Ātman) is identical with the transcendent self Brahman.[2][5]" 

Topic's author
#23
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@RationalMadman
I get that you think the brain is the representation and not the means and that, in your eyes, neurons firing are merely physicalised soul-pulses but I'm sorry to say that it's more probable that it's the other way around as proven by neurological studies of people who had damage to the skull and such having severe alterations in personality.

I'm sorry dear Madman, that is speculation. Damage to the skull or brain would certainly impair the ability of the conscious soul to operate correctly within that body. That has no impact on the conscious soul, other than what that soul experiences through that body. At what point does neurons firing become a conscious entity lol? sorry that is not probable you should rethink that. Go back and read what I have written about the brain. Nothing has been "proven" by neurological studies other than there is activity in the brain. That's a consequence like measuring a circuit board and finding activity....not the reason for consciousness, not the reason or source of electricity. Show me the mechanics of neurons becoming a conscious being. How does that take place exactly? Why does the conscious being continue to experience after actual brain death?

Topic's author
#24
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Goldtop
So, based on the definition of the word, your post makes no sense. Brains cannot observe, eyes observe

Lol, so when you close your eyes you are no longer observing? you no longer exist? try closing your eyes and see if that holds any water. So no, no eyes needed to observe or be the observer read that definition again. Without eyes you still observe and perceive your being, you still exist, you're an observer. Are you saying blind people do not perceive, or observe? They are both aware and conscious. 

and then pass on that information to the brain for synthesis. So, the "observer" of the mind makes no sense because the mind is the working of the brain and we cannot observe that unless we have specific technologies to do so. So, the only "Who" that might be observing our "experiences" are other people.

Does this answer your question?

Read above, eyes are not needed for an observer. Ears are not needed for you to exist and observe, likewise you as an observer exist independently of the brain and body. Independent of the eyes, ears ect ect. 


#25
Shed12
Shed12's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 72
0
0
4
Shed12's avatar
Shed12
0
0
4
-->
@EtrnlVw
"Nothing" is an observer? or are you not an observer? 
I mean it is not anything. It can be called you or I.

If it were something, it would be observable but it isn't. It doesn't have an appearance like observed things do.
Topic's author
#26
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Mopac
Maybe I think I know, but I'm also fine with mystery.


It's not much of a mystery though because you know by direct experience even though you are believing an illusion. You are a conscious, aware being expressing itself in/through creation. The Creator is a conscious aware Being expressing Itself and it does that through and in creation. The soul is nothing more than a piece/channel of God, an expression of the Creator. Both the soul and God are one, they are the same in nature there is no distinction there. The only thing different is the form the soul is confined in, the perception and choices it takes on through experiences but the soul comes out of the heart of God and is God expressing Itself through the created worlds.
The soul is an individualization of the One to experience right through that channel or vessel of awareness to experience something away from the alone state. And God does this through many states of consciousness and layers of experiences, a soul can be nothing other than what it came from. 
Close your eyes and get alone, that is what you are by nature. You are a conscious, creative being inhabiting a material body, but that soul, or conscious creative being is infinite, without form. The individualized soul is wrapped in layers, these layers confine the soul to its experience. These layers are known as spirit bodies or subtle bodies. 

Topic's author
#27
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Shed12
I mean it is not anything. It can be called you or I.

"You and I" is called awareness, consciousness or soul. It is a sentient, creative expression not a nothing. You are a something.

If it were something, it would be observable but it isn't. It doesn't have an appearance like observed things do.

Wait a minute, you ARE observing AT ALL times. What are you saying? at what point are you NOT observing? 

Topic's author
#28
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Shed12
I said observer.... Observer means you are the one observing an object or experience. 

#29
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@EtrnlVw
While there is a huge grey area in the study and almost entirely unexplored field of 'what makes us aware' and complete obscurity regarding how to separate us from personhood-facade Artificial Intelligence (AI), there is still far more proven likelihood that it is the physical brain that causes the experiences personhood and not the experience that results in the brain.
#30
Shed12
Shed12's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 72
0
0
4
Shed12's avatar
Shed12
0
0
4
-->
@EtrnlVw
is called awareness, consciousness or soul. It is a sentient, creative expression not a nothing. You are a something.
I don't have any qualities. 

Wait a minute, you ARE observing AT ALL times. What are you saying? at what point are you NOT observing? 
I am saying it is not a thing like observed things. The "awareness, consciousness or soul" doesn't have any appearance and isn't itself observable. Or else it would be observed and make itself not an observer.

If observation takes place all the time and there must be something that observes, then I guess I can't say the observer is nothing without also implying we do not observe. So instead I'll say that the things I observe also observe me and that observed things are not other than an observer or else without one there is not the other.