The Holy Trinity

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Kadin
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Nontrinitarian Christians do not believe in the trinity, they do not believe that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all equal as one.

These folks believe that only the Father is without beginning, that the Father is greater than the Son in all things, that the Son had a beginning, and he was brought forth at a certain point as "the firstborn of all creation" and "the only-begotten son." They do recognize Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and Redeemer, and believe that after his ascension to Heaven he resumed his pre-human identity, but exalted to God's right hand until the last days.

They do not believe that the Holy Spirit is an actual person, but rather refers to God's power or character depending on the context. They believe the Holy Spirit is God's "active force" that He uses to accomplish His will. Judaism and Islam also reject the concept of the trinity. How would you describe or defend the trinity to these people, and  nontrinitarian Christians in particular? 
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@Kadin
the first verses in the gospel of John say in the beginning the word was with God, and the word was God. that is describing the traditional trinity. there are also a few obscure verses who Jesus is referred to as 'God' in the letters of the new testament. 
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The matter is confused even further trying to describe the Trinity as a single God representing three different forms, as if a candy bar of chocolate, nougat, and nuts. I ascribe to three separate and distinct beings having a completely unified purpose: to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
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@Kadin
Nontrinitarian G.C.

New club....What's the dress code?
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The Holy Trinity



"the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" said Rabbi David Kimhi - " therefore, with reference to this god whom you call Father, Son and Holy Spirit, -  that part which you call the Father must be prior to that which you call Son,  for if they were always coexistent would have to be called twin brothers.

More over, if the Son is the Father what of  Mary getting pregnant?  Is this not an incestuous congregation? The Father has sex with the mother to conceive the Son who is also the Father.....so technically the Son, who is also the father, had sex with his mother"... 

It's  all very -  Oedipus, isn't it ?

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@fauxlaw
Doesn't the bible say that God is one? OR there is only one god.


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@Timid8967

Doesn't the bible say .............................. there is only one god?


What do you think?




Deuteronomy 6:4ESV “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

1 Timothy2:25 ESV "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Notice it clearly say " THE man" when talking about the anointed Jesus.


Isaiah 44:6  ESV  "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.


James 2:19 ESV    You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Mark 12: 29 ESV Jesus [the man] answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

 But then a careful reading of these unreliable "confusing and contradictory" scriptures in full, you will notice that even Jesus "THE MAN Christ"  goes on to contradicts himself. when speaking of god the father and himself.


 John 10:30 " I and the Father are one".   

John 14:28  “ I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I" .

More "confusing and contradictory"  saying of Jesus the man himself can be found here>>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5642-if-these-were-not-jesus-own-contradictory-words

 Of course John 10:30 could simply mean I and god are in agreement. Or it could simply mean -  I Jesus the man agree with god? Because John 14:28 clearly states god is greater than himself.



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@Stephen


Stephen,

GOD FORBID, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BRING UP THIS EMBARRASSING PROPOSITION IN POST #7, WHERE FOLLOWING TRUE CHRISTIANITY IS HARD ENOUGH!: "More over, if the Son is the Father what of  Mary getting pregnant?  Is this not an incestuous congregation? The Father has sex with the mother to conceive the Son who is also the Father.....so technically the Son, who is also the father, had sex with his mother"... 

Yes, the TRUE Christian like myself has to accept the following upon Jesus' birth:  As if the aforementioned above isn’t embarrassing enough,  then Mary and Jesus fall prey to the following inspired passage by Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate: "No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD. Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her. Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.” (Leviticus 18:6-8)

Whether they’re sexual relations though the natural “fruit of the loin” (Acts 2:30), or through the spirit of Jesus’ incestuous celestial impregnation of his own mother Mary (Matthew 1:18-25), the end result is the same, INCEST! Therefore this precludes the child Jesus was born out of true wedlock in the Hebrew tradition with Joseph not being the paternal father, and therefore Jesus  becomes a Bastard Child, of which we base the beginning of our faith upon.  :(….


Stephen, could I pay you to not bring up topics like this to embarrass my faith in Jesus and Christianity?  For you to not do this again, how about me paying for an all expenses paid trip for an entire week at Hawaii's Kahala Hotel & Resort? I'll even throw in a 7 day rental for a Ferrari 458 Italia, and who cares if the rental charge for this exotic car to me is $2500.00 a day! At least think about it, okay? Thanks.   Oh, I presume you want the Ferrari in red? 

.
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@BrotherDThomas
Stephen,

GOD FORBID, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BRING UP THIS EMBARRASSING PROPOSITION IN POST #7, WHERE FOLLOWING TRUE CHRISTIANITY IS HARD ENOUGH!: "More over, if the Son is the Father what of  Mary getting pregnant?  Is this not an incestuous congregation? The Father has sex with the mother to conceive the Son who is also the Father.....so technically the Son, who is also the father, had sex with his mother"... 


 Is there any other way to see this Brother without rewriting scripture and or putting words into the mouths of the biblical authors and biblical characters? 

At least you are honest enough to see this little dilemma for what it is;  in any language?  And we have had it from the mouth of our resident expert in ancient Greek that to even read the bible written in English is a complete and utter waste of time as he rendered it completely useless as any kind of authority on matters biblical, so from his own standpoint, it would be complete a waste of time trying to make biblical verses written in English  `fit` as a way out of what is clearly a biblical dilemma for Christians.   


Stephen, could I pay you to not bring up topics like this to embarrass my faith in Jesus and Christianity? 

 No. But thank you,  that is the nicest and politest way that I have ever been told to shut the F*** up and F*** off.
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@Stephen


Stephen,

Uh, why aren't the pseudo-christians coming into your thread, especially when it relates to the Trinity Doctrine? Since I am the only TRUE Christian upon this forum, at least I made an entrance!

.
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Kadin
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@n8nrgmi
the first verses in the gospel of John say in the beginning the word was with God, and the word was God. that is describing the traditional trinity. there are also a few obscure verses who Jesus is referred to as 'God' in the letters of the new testament.

Presumably, nontrinitarian Christians are familiar with those Bible verses and still do not accept the trinity. How would you personally describe or defend the trinity to those people? 
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@Kadin
Holography { holy } Cosmi Trinity { 1, 2, 3 }:

1} Metaphysical-1 { spirit-1 } mind/intellect/concepts and ego/identity of God, Universe, Space, Time, Dogs, Cats etc

----------------------conceptual line of demarcation--------------------------------------------------------------

2} macro-inifnite, non-occuppied space,

3} finite, occupied space Universe/God.

........3a} phyiscal reality aa observed time, ergo fermions, bosons and any collection thereof and may include new hybrid set of these two,

........3b metaphysical-3 { spiri-3 }, positively curved geodesic of Gravity   (  ) ---see torus bisection (   )(   )------

..........3d} metaphyiscal-4 { spirit-4 } negatively curved geodesic of Dark Energy )(.

All that exists is a subcatagory of the above three. Simple and not complex to grasp.


.............................................Space( * ) i ( * )Space.............................................

Universe/God may be a mystery, but its no secret.
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Timid8967
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@Kadin
Nontrinitarian Christians
Isn't that an oxymoron? 

Can there be a non-trinitarian christian? surely, any definition of a christian must include Jesus as God? Otherwise it is not really a christian definition - just someone pretending to be one.  

I can like Gandhi, but I would not call myself a ghandistian. Or I can like stalin - does not make me a stalinist.

Is christianity - a religion - a way of life - a cover all provision for anyone born in the west or anyone who likes Jesus? 


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Castin
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@Timid8967
A nontrinitarian can believe in the divinity of Jesus without necessarily believing he is one with, or equal with, God the Father. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses would be modern examples. Alternatively, a Christian could venerate and follow the teachings of Jesus without thinking he is divine at all, like the ancient Ebionites. Unitarians would be a modern example -- some of them, anyway.

And I would argue that to be a follower of a certain ideological figure, you do not necessarily need to believe in them as a deity, but you do need to do more than just "like" them -- you need to devote yourself to their teachings and take them as a life model.
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EtrnlVw
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@Castin
Were you once a Christian or were raised in a Christian household? or are you just interested in religious theology? unlike a lot of folks you have a very solid grasp of theology, it's kind of unique to you. Is Christianity the only religious theology that interests you? have you ever been curious or have studied any other religious knowledge?
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@Timid8967
I approach the Bible as absolutely correct only insofar as it is written originally [by book, for it has many authors] 100% correctly, and then translated correctly by others. It cannot be otherwise, for God, himself, did not write one jot or tittle of it; it is a composition of men and women. Mortal men and women, meaning they have natural flaws, and they will be reflected in their writing. Such is the nature of man; a fact God understands and is willing to let be.  That God created, I have no doubt. That he created us perfectly is contrary to the intent of our creation in the first place. We were created to grow, to learn, to make mistakes, learn from them, and learn from our successes, and so progress  from ignorance to, ultimately, perfect knowledge such as God has. Creation is a process, not a complete act ended when it began. Therefore, since God did not write the books of the Bible, they have flaws. It's up to us to determine how to identify them and understand what should be a correct interpretation. How? I think James has the best answer. A read of chapter 1, in its entirety, is a valid process: ask God, trusting he will reply. "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not." [verse 5] The whole chapter is wisdom in a bottle. The other 4 chapters are just as vital to understand. 
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@Castin
A nontrinitarian can believe in the divinity of Jesus without necessarily believing he is one with, or equal with, God the Father. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses would be modern examples. Alternatively, a Christian could venerate and follow the teachings of Jesus without thinking he is divine at all, like the ancient Ebionites. Unitarians would be a modern example -- some of them, anyway.

And I would argue that to be a follower of a certain ideological figure, you do not necessarily need to believe in them as a deity, but you do need to do more than just "like" them -- you need to devote yourself to their teachings and take them as a life model.
Which parts do you have to devote yourself to? All of it - or just the parts that you identify with? 

if not all, then why don't you just admit it is an eclectic religion and not label it christianity? 

And the overwhelming majority of christians in the world - according to the WCC would not accept either the JWs or LDS as anything but cults - pseudo in nature. 
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@fauxlaw
I approach the Bible as absolutely correct only insofar as it is written originally [by book, for it has many authors] 100% correctly, and then translated correctly by others. It cannot be otherwise, for God, himself, did not write one jot or tittle of it; it is a composition of men and women. Mortal men and women, meaning they have natural flaws, and they will be reflected in their writing. Such is the nature of man; a fact God understands and is willing to let be.  That God created, I have no doubt. That he created us perfectly is contrary to the intent of our creation in the first place. We were created to grow, to learn, to make mistakes, learn from them, and learn from our successes, and so progress  from ignorance to, ultimately, perfect knowledge such as God has. Creation is a process, not a complete act ended when it began. Therefore, since God did not write the books of the Bible, they have flaws. It's up to us to determine how to identify them and understand what should be a correct interpretation. How? I think James has the best answer. A read of chapter 1, in its entirety, is a valid process: ask God, trusting he will reply. "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not." [verse 5] The whole chapter is wisdom in a bottle. The other 4 chapters are just as vital to understand. 
In other words, you choose what you like and you choose what you don't like according to your own determinations.  Sounds like it is more a religion of your own making than christianity. Still it is a matter for you.  Oh - weren't the 10 commandments written by god's own hand on the mountain? 


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@Timid8967
Did I say I make a choice of likes and dislikes? No, I did not. Please do not mix my words to satisfy your perspective. That is not at all what I said. 

And, no, while God wrote the commandments on tablets hewn from the mountain, they were copied onto another medium by men, weren't they? Did they copy faithfully? Who knows? Then the tablets disappeared with the Ark of the Covenant, didn't they? Lost by men. Then the copies were re-copied and translated, again by men. Extrapolate to today.
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I do not think it matters to god if I think he's some sort of transformer. Still, I'm probably half Christian, or thereabouts. I listened to Paradise Lost last summer on audiobook. I don't like to admit I believe in god actually, and I'll lie about it often. I'll tell any girl I'm an atheist in order to bed her, I'll humour the fuck out of astrology, too, anti-vax even a couple of times. I'm not sure if that matters, but it's like not believing in a buddy or something, there's a tingling guilt there only. Day or two in hell, tops. Raiders of the Lost Ark was a cool Indiana Jones movie. Nearly sent that as Indian. Indian Jones. That's a completely different movie. 
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@EtrnlVw
Were you once a Christian or were raised in a Christian household? or are you just interested in religious theology? unlike a lot of folks you have a very solid grasp of theology, it's kind of unique to you. Is Christianity the only religious theology that interests you? have you ever been curious or have studied any other religious knowledge?
I was raised by an agnostic and former Christian, in a very Christian area, where I went to church and was often, and still am, encouraged to convert. I have a definite interest in theology, and it certainly is not limited to Christianity, though like most westerners I have read the Bible more than any other religious text.
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@Timid8967
A nontrinitarian can believe in the divinity of Jesus without necessarily believing he is one with, or equal with, God the Father. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses would be modern examples. Alternatively, a Christian could venerate and follow the teachings of Jesus without thinking he is divine at all, like the ancient Ebionites. Unitarians would be a modern example -- some of them, anyway.

And I would argue that to be a follower of a certain ideological figure, you do not necessarily need to believe in them as a deity, but you do need to do more than just "like" them -- you need to devote yourself to their teachings and take them as a life model.
Which parts do you have to devote yourself to? All of it - or just the parts that you identify with? 

if not all, then why don't you just admit it is an eclectic religion and not label it christianity? 

And the overwhelming majority of christians in the world - according to the WCC would not accept either the JWs or LDS as anything but cults - pseudo in nature. 
I'm so glad you asked me that, because I have a pre-written Supreme Christian Checklist of Parts You Have to Devote Yourself To, To Be Christian, which is the absolute authority across the world because I, Castin the Great (Peace Be Unto Me), have declared it to be so, and only the Christians who devote themselves to my Supreme Checklist are the really real Christians. So sayeth Castin the Great.

Hmm, my browser red underlined "pre-written" as a misspelled word and suggested "pee-written" as one of the corrections.

Possibly a commentary on the theological value of my Supreme Checklist. Harsh but fair.

The point is, I am not the arbiter of what it means to be a follower of Christ.

And disagreements over what it does mean to be a follower of Christ appear to go back to the time of Peter, James, and Paul in the Apostolic Age. In my own experience, Christians have always devoted themselves more to the parts of the Bible they identify with, and de-emphasized parts of the Bible they do not identify with. I don't know a Christian who consistently follows "all of it."

I have a Christian acquaintance who divorced her first husband because of irreconcilable differences rather than infidelity. Jesus, it appears, does not approve of this, and according to him she is committing adultery on her first husband with her second husband. Yet she worships Christ and is a pillar of her church. Is she not a Christian because she doesn't follow "all of it"? No one in the Protestant world seems to question her Christianity, and I suspect you wouldn't either, even though Jesus's disapproval of divorce is spelled out far more explicitly in the Bible than the doctrine of the Trinity.
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@Castin
I'm so glad you asked me that, because I have a pre-written Supreme Christian Checklist of Parts You Have to Devote Yourself To, To Be Christian, which is the absolute authority across the world because I, Castin the Great (Peace Be Unto Me), have declared it to be so, and only the Christians who devote themselves to my Supreme Checklist are the really real Christians. So sayeth Castin the Great.
Ok. 

Hmm, my browser red underlined "pre-written" as a misspelled word and suggested "pee-written" as one of the corrections.
Spell checkers seems to be omniscient. 


Possibly a commentary on the theological value of my Supreme Checklist. Harsh but fair.
Ok. 

The point is, I am not the arbiter of what it means to be a follower of Christ.
Ok. 

And disagreements over what it does mean to be a follower of Christ appear to go back to the time of Peter, James, and Paul in the Apostolic Age. In my own experience, Christians have always devoted themselves more to the parts of the Bible they identify with, and de-emphasized parts of the Bible they do not identify with. I don't know a Christian who consistently follows "all of it."
Interesting.  Yet even in that first council at Jerusalem, an agreed position was reached - even as it was over the next several hundred years and councils.  Can you give an example of where people identify with some and not with others? And what do you think the rationale is that people do this? 


I have a Christian acquaintance who divorced her first husband because of irreconcilable differences rather than infidelity. Jesus, it appears, does not approve of this, and according to him she is committing adultery on her first husband with her second husband. Yet she worships Christ and is a pillar of her church. Is she not a Christian because she doesn't follow "all of it"? No one in the Protestant world seems to question her Christianity, and I suspect you wouldn't either, even though Jesus's disapproval of divorce is spelled out far more explicitly in the Bible than the doctrine of the Trinity.

I am not a christian - my brother was before he passed away during the first part of this year.  He was a pretty switched on fundy.  After reading your post - I thought I would talk to his wife and see what she thought.  She said to me that she knows christians who have separated from the partners for domestic violence - but she also indicated that DV was a form of infidelity anyway.  She did not think that Jesus would disaprove of divorce for either infidelity or DV. But she did state that marriage should be for lifetime commitment and that irreconcilible differences is anti- committment.  She said she would find it difficult to see how someone could divorce for that reason and still be considered a rock on her church.   She talked about grace as well.  Jesus died for our sins - that is how people become christians - not because they obey the commandments.  she thought that she would think that someone who did not believe Jesus was god - was not a christian.  
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Stephen
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@Timid8967
Jesus died for our sins -

 And I wouldn't want anyone to take responsibility for "sins" that I have committed and certainly not pay for what I did via a blood sacrifice. How barbaric!!!


 my brother was before he passed away during the first part of this year.  He was a pretty switched on fundy.  After reading your post - I thought I would talk to his wife and see what she thought.  

 Don't you mean "his widow", your sister in-law?


that is how people become christians -

 So baptism / Christening plays no part in becoming a Christian at all then?  



I thought I would talk to his[my brothers widow] wife and see what she thought. 

she thought that she would think that someone who did not believe Jesus was god - was not a christian.  

 You seem awfully reliant on,  if not taken by, the word of someone that believes in a "myth"#16 and is a member of the "most dangerous"religion in existence.#153
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@Stephen
So baptism / Christening plays no part in becoming a Christian at all then?  
I asked my sister in law - she is pretty clear about this. Baptism /  christening - is only seeking to identify with the local church. it has nothing to do with "becoming a Christian".  In her opinion - water baptism is an outside ceremony or ritual with symbolic significance - but with no power itself to make someone a CHRISTIAN. 
#26
Stephen
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@Timid8967
So baptism / Christening plays no part in becoming a Christian at all then?  
I asked my sister in law - she is pretty clear about this. Baptism /  christening - is only seeking to identify with the local church. it has nothing to do with "becoming a Christian". 
So your answer is NO, then.

 And so this is not an initiation into the Christian fold then.. Well I find that really interesting. 

 

Well In her opinion - water baptism is an outside ceremony or ritual with symbolic significance - but with no power itself to make someone a CHRISTIAN. 

Yes its a total nonsense really isn't it.


I was christened,  but like you,   I believe that the "mythical"  story that CHRISTIANS have wrapped around a Jew  man that believed himself to be King of the JEWS and heir to the throne of David is total and utter nonsense.

Why is it I wonder that Christians believe that a Jew man had come to earth to unite and save them, when the scriptures make it perfectly clear this wasn't ever the case?


What does your sister- in- law say when you tell her that she is following  one of the most "dangerous religions"  on the planet?

Do you have discussions with her about the "myth" of Christ?  What was her reaction when you told her that you believe the bible belongs on the fire?



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@Stephen
When I see her again I will talk to her. 

Then we will perhaps know.  


9 days later

#28
Stephen
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@Timid8967

I asked my sister in law - she is pretty clear about this. Baptism /  christening - is only seeking to identify with the local church. it has nothing to do with "becoming a Christian". 


What does your sister- in- law say when you tell her that she is following  one of the most "dangerous religions"  on the planet?

Do you have discussions with her about the "myth" of Christ?  What was her reaction when you told her that you believe the bible belongs on the fire?

When I see her again I will talk to her. 


 So, what's she have to say? 




#29
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@Stephen
I haven't spoken to her this past week.  I said when I see her next, I will ask.  
#30
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@Timid8967
Well I am sure  it should make for an interesting conversation considering she obviously doesn't know that you are so anti everything religion?