Is the god of the Muslims the same as the Jewish god?

Author: Timid8967

Posts

Read-only
Total: 118
#61
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Barney


.
Ragnar,

First off, it is great that you are now participating within the Religion Forum that you moderate as well, praise Jesus!

In your post #35 within this thread, you were addressing the following: "Is Allah the same as Jehovah, or are they 2 different Gods?"
Your answer was: "They are both Abrahamic Religions, so kinda yes. However, kinda no.  Then you followed up your statements with analogies to try and prove your point.

Subjectively, when talking about whether all of the Abrahamic Religions worship the same one god, or worship separate and distinct gods, it has to be an absolute conclusion and not in any way a "Maybe" whether they are or not as you stated in your link below.

Therefore, wouldn't it be very hard to conclude that the 3 Abrahamic Religions were all from the decent Abraham, but at the same time, they were 3 DIFFERENT DISTINCT GODS?!  NOT!  Whereas, within the scriptures of each of the Abrahamic Religions show that it is the same one God that they all worship, no matter the disturbing outcome that this proposition may show!

Peruse my post #60 above, and we can further talk about it if so desired. 


.
#62
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherDThomas
so because other people say something to be the case, you hop right on the bandwagon and use it as evidence? If a Raelian said that his God was the same as the Christian God would you automatically accept it as fact? Are you always driven by whatever anyone claims in a text? The fact is, Judaism and Christianity don't agree on the essential characteristics of God and Judaism and Islam don't agree on the activities of God. But if you are happy reading some quotes and letting that substitute for your own thinking then party on, Garth.
Topic's author
#63
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
Fair point. 
Topic's author
#64
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Lemming
Not all Christians consider Jesus 'God though, my family certainly didn't.

Most Christians believe that Jesus was both human and the Son of God.[13] While there has been theological debate over his nature,[t] Trinitarian Christians generally believe that Jesus is the Logos, God's incarnation and God the Son, both fully divine and fully human. However, the doctrine of the Trinity is not universally accepted among Christians
Additionally, regarding Muslims, I 'think, Jesus is
A major figure in Islam,[40][42] Jesus (often referred to by his Quranic name ʿĪsā) is considered to be a messenger of God
Hi Lemming, 

thanks for that.  I certainly accept that christianity can be understood more broadly than just trinitarian. in fact some people think if you are born in the west then you are a christian. i went to the world council of churches for a definition. What is the World Council of Churches? — World Council of Churches (oikoumene.org)

The World Council of Churches is a fellowship of churches which confess the Lord Jesus Christ as God and Saviour according to the scriptures, and therefore seek to fulfil together their common calling to the glory of the one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
If we use a broad definition - then essentially the term loses it meaning - it would be better to use a definition that is used by the overwhelming majority of churches, at least in my opinion. 

And certainly since I am trying to understand the position of muslims and jews - what the definition of christianity is somewhat irrelevant. 
Topic's author
#65
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
Hence why this is about jews and muslims only.  

 Whose Jew  god you have identified by his Christian/ Anglican title of Jehovah.

Dimtim8967 wrote: Is Allah the same as Jehovah? Or are they two different gods?  #1


Fair point stephen, let's go with yhwh then or whatever the jewish people want to name their god. 

 But never the less, you have made it clear on many threads  that you are a "non theists",  which, with the creation of  this thread about god and or gods completely flies in the face of everything you say about yourself and gods, here:


non-theists don't debate theology -  it is impossible because theology means - the study of god and non-theists don't believe in god. 

non-theists debate or discuss or rather dogmatically affirm discussions about some kind of god we think might exist but cant prove or disprove.  Really we are fools.  

How can we debate about something we don't actually know how to define - and by that I mean - there is no consensus on what god is? #20

Not sure what you point was. I conceded I was wrong - or at least I suspended my position about the above.  Isn't that what you wanted me to do? I was wrong  so now I am trying to learn something new. 


So if that be the case, then shouldn't you first be asking or searching for the definition of what a god is or establishing the existence of god or gods before asking if two gods are the same or different?
Well actually you were the one who made a point about me only referring to the christian god and not the muslim god. So here I am trying to do so - and you still are needling away.  ?????  Besides everyone learns differently. I am trying to find out what these two religions understanding is - and what others say so that I have more information to make a decision.  Obviouly -- you just dive in - without understanding to tell your bit. 



There is a thread addressing just this here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6119-how-do-you-define-god  that I notice you haven't contributed to at all.

It is pretty hard to contribute when I don't have a definition for myself. 
Topic's author
#66
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@BrotherDThomas


YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE IN POST #26: "So please stick to the specific topic.  Muslim and Jewish god or gods. christianity is irrelevant in this thread. "

Christianity is NOT irrelevant to your thread because of the simple FACT that Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate, understood?  Therefore Jesus is in the mix of your titled thread as well if the serial killer God Yahweh is concerned, get it?  :(. To save time, actually LEARN about the religions that you talk about, okay? Thank you.

Yes it is irrelevant to this thread.   Whatever the christians think about jesus is entirely irrelevent to what the jews think of their god and the muslims think of their god.  I could call myself Jesus - this would not mean I become relevant to christian's understanding of god.  It is nonsense.  

Please start your own thread if you want to discuss jesus or christianity. 

#67
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@rosends

.
Rosends, ungodly rewriter of the Hebrew Bible and other Jewish writings, and runaway from Jewish biblical axioms, calls His Yahweh God a LIAR, and now doesn’t know when to quit to save himself from further embarrassment within this forum,

ROSENDS, in addressing your feeble sounding post #62,  the godly propositions in my revealing post #60, where ALL Abrahamic Religions worship the SAME ONE GOD are Biblically vouchsafed by the separate divisions of the Abrahamic Religions as explicitly shown,  and most importantly, in using your Hebrew Religion as well, which holds more validity to the eventful outcome shown!  Whereas your gibberish gobbledygook opinions as a human shown in your ungodly laughable posts in trying so hard to say that the Abrahamic Religions have separate and distinct gods, falls flat upon it's proverbial face!  But, in turn, look at it this way, with my schooling towards your blatant ignorance on this topic, you will eventfully learn!  You can thank me later.  

I only have time for one of your blatant hypocritical quotes: You stated: "Are you always driven by whatever anyone claims in a text? " Well, you most certainly follow this quote of yours by reading from your Hebrew Tanakh Bible!  Whoops!  LOL

Now, like I said, get your sorry Satanic  ass back into the Flat Earth thread where I haven't even started on your outright Bible stupidity relative to that main topic at hand, understood?  GO! NOW! HURRY! LOL!

.
#68
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Timid8967


Timid8967, the half-assed member because he fails to include a biography,

In answering yet another subjective faux pas of yours in your post # 66, you should have finished the spectrum of mentioning ALL of the Abrahamic Gods at once, therefore including the serial killer Jesus as Yahweh god incarnate. Therefore, as if your half ass membership wasn't embarrassing enough for you because you can't fill out a biography, then your topic became half assed as well without Jesus.  Get it, yeah you do.  :(


NEXT?
Topic's author
#69
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@BrotherDThomas
Hi Brother,

You have failed to be consistent in your reasoning. You forget you gave me a waiver from filling out the bio because I am not religious.  I am a non-theist.  And since this means I am on my way to Hell, there is no need to provide any specifics of my background. Like Stephen who also has an empty bio, we are exempted.  Have a nice day. 

Oh yes, and I am not interested in Abrahamic religions per se, just the current conflict - which we see on tv between the Jews and the Muslims.  Or Israel and Hamas / Palestine. It is not a conflict between JEws and Christians and Muslims. It is the Muslims who want to see the end of Israel and the Israelies who want to see the end of Palestine.  

My entire topic is premised (at least in my mind - even though I have not previously mentioned it) due to the onset of this conflict.  Why can the Jew not see their god is the same as the Muslim? Jesus has nothing to do with this.    And therefore Christianity has nothing to do with this topic. 
#70
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967
But never the less, you have made it clear on many threads  that you are a "non theists",  which, with the creation of  this thread about god and or gods completely flies in the face of everything you say about yourself and gods, here:


non-theists don't debate theology -  it is impossible because theology means - the study of god and non-theists don't believe in god. 

non-theists debate or discuss or rather dogmatically affirm discussions about some kind of god we think might exist but cant prove or disprove.  Really we are fools.  

How can we debate about something we don't actually know how to define - and by that I mean - there is no consensus on what god is? #20
Not sure what you point was.

My point was that your stance on all things god is that you say that you are fool for even discussing things that you can't define and don't believe in.  Yet here you are discussing gods that you know nothing about and  haven't defined yet.  Not to mention that you have also  said that paedophile priests and "other things" were enough to convince you that there was no god. But here you are again, contrary to your years of belief as a "non theist"  ready to "suspend"  all of your previous beliefs after being here just a matter of weeks? 

  Seriously!!! who are you trying to kid?  I have already  said that after your little speech here  #31  Timid8967  that   before long you will shed you "non theist" skin and become a believer if not a full blown christian because this now is the only way that you can discuss ( what you really do believe in) religion, god, Jesus and the scriptures after you had blown all of your toes clean  off with all of your profound faux anti religious bullshit that you have spouted since day one of your arrival and that  only Fauxlaw pretended not to notice.#20



  You showed us your sheer retarded stupidity by suggesting that religion and Jesus and god shouldn't be even given oxygen or discussed, while yourself,  discussing all three on a forum on the WWW! AND NOW  your saying that just a few weeks of posting here has brought you to your senses? And you believe the opposite is true after weeks of continually pressing home to us just how anti religion, Jesus , god and scriptures you are? 


I conceded I was wrong -

About what exactly. 

Are you now saying we  atheists and "non theists"  should not have to "take the bull by the horns" and  bare the burden of proving god does or doesn't exist? 

Do you still believe "Jesus is a myth"?

Do you still consider Christianity  "a danger to our children and our existence"?

Do you still believe that Christianity is a "cancer that should be cut out" ? 

Do you still believe the Christians holy book the bible " should be committed to the flames"? 





or at least I suspended my position about the above. 

Veiled backpedaling, is what I call that.


Isn't that what you wanted me to do?


 Whatever gave you the idea I wanted you to do anything except address questions raised by your own comments, statements and your  belief.
I have asked you numerous times now- what is it that "we" atheist and Non theist have to "take back from the theists"? 

I have also asked you what "truth"  is it that you believe  atheists and non theist have?  #20     You have simply fell silent on both questions.  So as for me  learning  and being "unteachable"  why don't you now teach me what "truth " we are supposed to have, why don't  you not teach me what it is the we or I have to take back from the theists? 


I was wrong .

About what?  What has caused you to believe that you were wrong after being here just a few short weeks of arguing with mostly me after your initial arse licking, that I didn't fall for at all? 


so now I am trying to learn something new. 

About what?  What is it  you now expect to learn? 


It is pretty hard to contribute when I don't have a definition for myself. 

So you don't even know what  it is that you are discussing , do you?






#71
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Timid8967
Well.

Jesus is either the son of a GOD, or the personification of a GOD, or both.....Such is the confusion of the Christian Club version.

Nonetheless  the spread of Arabian theism all stems from the same notion of GOD.

So depending on which club one subscribes to, (or not, in my case) GOD can be both the same and/or different. (Other specialist clubs are available)

The Christian one is often envisaged as a fair skinned guy with a flowing mane of blond hair.......I would imagine that the Muslim one is generally regarded as being swarthier with curly black hair......And the Jewish one perhaps wears a black hat.

And as for Catholics and all that Virgin Mary stuff!
Topic's author
#72
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4

Jesus is either the son of a GOD, or the personification of a GOD, or both.....Such is the confusion of the Christian Club version.

Nonetheless  the spread of Arabian theism all stems from the same notion of GOD.

So depending on which club one subscribes to, (or not, in my case) GOD can be both the same and/or different. (Other specialist clubs are available)

The Christian one is often envisaged as a fair skinned guy with a flowing mane of blond hair.......I would imagine that the Muslim one is generally regarded as being swarthier with curly black hair......And the Jewish one perhaps wears a black hat.

And as for Catholics and all that Virgin Mary stuff!

If Jesus is the son of man, does that make him man? If Jesus is the son of God, does that make him God? Is it really confusing that Jesus might be both the son of God and God personification? Only if one thinks that him, being the son of man, makes him not human.  

I get that often christians are accused of envisaging Jesus as a fair skinned guy with blonde hair, but is that a fair criticism, or merely just mocking  Westerners in their religion? 

Chinese Christians draw Jesus as chinese.  And african christians draw him as african.  Is this a way for people use to identify with jesus or are they actually denying Jesus was a jew?

I have never met a christian who says Jesus is not a jew.   Have you? 
Topic's author
#73
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
Boring.  nothing to respond to.
#74
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967
Boring.  nothing to respond to.

 This is why I know you to be fraud.  You have much that needs addressing and responding to , but can't without exposing yourself further. 

I am trying to learn something new. 

You are not interested in learning about the points raised here by others concerning the Abrahamic god which also happens to be the god of Christians.  You have got caught out on that point, so again,  having been backed into a corner you have moved the goal posts and have now decided that this thread , your thread,  wasn't at all  about  the religion or " the  god of the Jews or Muslims  per se" but was created to understand the "conflict  in Palestine" and  this is also why you have clambered for this bullshite;


Dimtim wrote: "I am not interested in Abrahamic religions per se, just the current conflict - which we see on tv between the Jews and the Muslims.  Or Israel and Hamas / Palestine. It is not a conflict between JEws and Christians and Muslims. It is the Muslims who want to see the end of Israel and the Israelies who want to see the end of Palestine."  #69   Timid8967

 If this was truly the case then you have posted in the wrong sub-forum.  The Political forum is where a thread has been started on that very subject of the "Arab Israeli conflict".

But again, I notice that,   in all of the five pages and all ONE HUNDRED AND SIX POSTS of that thread you haven't asked a single question or made a single comment on the "current  Arab Israeli conflict" ? 

And "TV"  rarely, , if at all refer to this conflict as Muslim V Jew conflict. And they would never be so stupid and retarded to mention god in the western media when reporting on this centuries old conflict.  You see this conflict is about land possession and entitlement,  not god "PER SE". So you have shit out there too, haven't you, sunshine.

If Jesus is the son of man, does that make him man? If Jesus is the son of God, does that make him God? Is it really confusing that Jesus might be both the son of God and God personification? Only if one thinks that him, being the son of man, makes him not human.  

But according to you  "Jesus is a myth". So why are you evening giving more oxygen and air time to this myth? Or have you changed your mind?



I conceded I was wrong -

About what exactly? 

Are you now saying we  atheists and "non theists"  should not have to "take the bull by the horns" and  bare the burden of proving god does or doesn't exist? 

Do you still believe "Jesus is a myth"?

Do you still consider Christianity  "a danger to our children and our existence"?

Do you still believe that Christianity is a "cancer that should be cut out" ? 

Do you still believe the Christians holy book the bible " should be committed to the flames"? 



Topic's author
#75
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
Boring.  nothing to respond to.

 This is why I know you to be fraud.  You have much that needs addressing and responding to , but can't without exposing yourself further. 
Stephen, you are boring. You repeat yourself. I don't have anything that needs addressing. I have answered all of your questions and more.  

I am trying to learn something new. 

You are not interested in learning about the points raised here by others concerning the Abrahamic god which also happens to be the god of Christians.  You have got caught out on that point, so again,  having been backed into a corner you have moved the goal posts and have now decided that this thread , your thread,  wasn't at all  about  the religion or " the  god of the Jews or Muslims  per se" but was created to understand the "conflict  in Palestine" and  this is also why you have clambered for this bullshite;
Now you are telling lies.  I am interested in  learning and have learnt much since being on this site.  I admit that I was foolish for suggesting that talking about religion was giving it airtime whilst myself was talking about it. I admitted that. I have learned I was wrong.  The only person who keeps repeating this is you. I never moved the goalposts.  For me the current conflict was my reason for asking the question.  I did not express that originally  because I did not see it as relevant.  It is only relevant now because people kept insisting my question about Jews and Muslims must also include Christians - which it did not.  

Dimtim wrote: "I am not interested in Abrahamic religions per se, just the current conflict - which we see on tv between the Jews and the Muslims.  Or Israel and Hamas / Palestine. It is not a conflict between JEws and Christians and Muslims. It is the Muslims who want to see the end of Israel and the Israelies who want to see the end of Palestine."  #69   Timid8967
 If this was truly the case then you have posted in the wrong sub-forum.  The Political forum is where a thread has been started on that very subject of the "Arab Israeli conflict".

Nonsense. It is clearly a religious topic not a political one.  I was not asking for answers in relation to the political climate - but considering how two different tribes had so much hatred for each other - and yet for all intents and purposes worshiped the same god. 

But again, I notice that,   in all of the five pages and all ONE HUNDRED AND SIX POSTS of that thread you haven't asked a single question or made a single comment on the "current  Arab Israeli conflict" ? 
Why should I? I did not even know it was there. until you pointed it out. 


If Jesus is the son of man, does that make him man? If Jesus is the son of God, does that make him God? Is it really confusing that Jesus might be both the son of God and God personification? Only if one thinks that him, being the son of man, makes him not human.  

But according to you  "Jesus is a myth". So why are you evening giving more oxygen and air time to this myth? Or have you changed your mind?
Wow! None of my paragraph is antithetical to my position that Jesus is a myth.  I responded to another poster - and now you going to resurrect - again - what I have indicated I had changed. But hey don't let the facts get in the road of your paranoia.


I conceded I was wrong -

About what exactly? 
GO and read my previous posts here and elsewhere. I am not going to repeat myself for you. 

Are you now saying we  atheists and "non theists"  should not have to "take the bull by the horns" and  bare the burden of proving god does or doesn't exist? 

I never said that was wrong.  In fact on numerous occasions I have explained myself. You find it - you obviously don't have anything else to do except troll my posts. 

Do you still believe "Jesus is a myth"?

Yes. 

Do you still consider Christianity  "a danger to our children and our existence"?

Yes.

Do you still believe that Christianity is a "cancer that should be cut out" ? 
Yes. 


Do you still believe the Christians holy book the bible " should be committed to the flames"? 
Yes.

And if you ask me any of these questions again - now that you have an answer I will take it as your admission to trolling me. And I will act accordingly. 



#76
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Timid8967


Timid8967, the half-assed member because he fails to include a biography,

In answer to your ignorant quote about Jesus has no place in your thread AGAIN, whereas the title of your thread is: "Is the god of the Muslims the same as the Jewish god," then Jesus should be in your thread because Jesus is a JEWISH God, and Jesus is the Jewish God Yahweh incarnate, of which you speak, GET IT BIBLE FOOL? HUH?

Your Bible ignorance has absolutely no bounds within this forum!  

.


#77
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@BrotherDThomas
By Timid's own post #1, the subject does not include Christianity, so why push the point? Further, Timid admits to being non-theist, a point you manage to completely ignore. Timid has a perfect right to that position, and I don't personally believe Timid is going to hell for that, in spite of the declaration. Romans clearly offers us a variety of heavenly glories, and not one of them includes hell, so there is apparently a differing set of kingdoms in heaven for varying grades of righteousness in people, outside of hell. We're even told in Romans that hell is reserved for those who deny the the testimony of the Holy Ghost, the only unpardonable sin, which does not even include murder. 

But, none of this is relevant, because the thread does not include Christianity in the first place. 
#78
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@fauxlaw
 I don't personally believe Timid is going to hell for that, in spite of the declaration.

 Well we know you wouldn't have a word said against Dimtim 8967although he believes your holy "god breathed" scriptures should be burned from the face of the earth, that  Jesus is a myth, that  Christianity is dangerous to our children and our future, that  Christianity is a cancer that needs cutting out and that Christians are weird.

 I only have to suggest there maybe another side to the Jesus story and you start having menstrual cycles all over the place.
#79
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Timid8967
Christian, Jesus and Jew.

That would be an academic question.

A Christian is a Christian because they variously accept what they have been told.

I doubt that many Christians club members, have ever read the bible from cover to cover.....Most just have childhood recollections of the popular bits.


And GODS are/were created in various images......States the obvious really.


#80
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967
Stephen, you are boring. You repeat yourself.
No. I simply repeat questions raised by your own comments the you often dodge, ignore and refuse to answer.


I am trying to learn something new. 

What are you trying to learn?  You are a "non theist" and some kind of study other than one read of the bible brought you to repeatedly declare your adamant
"non theist"position and to declare your professed abhorrence of all thing biblical,  Christian and Christianity.  So what are you hoping to learn and why?



  I am interested in  learning and have learnt much since being on this site. 

What have you learned in the short few weeks that you have been here on this forum? 



 I never moved the goalposts.  For me the current conflict was my reason for asking the question.

 Of course you did. You have  totally changed the reason/topic of this thread from religion to political. I would agree that it is a religiopolitical subject, but considering that not a single western government or media outlet mentions Jews or Muslims but instead carefully choose the words  Israelis and Arabs and I can't remember  god ever being mentioned in a single broadcast by a reporter or news outlet.



 If this was truly the case then you have posted in the wrong sub-forum.  The Political forum is where a thread has been started on that very subject of the "Arab Israeli conflict".

But again, I notice that,   in all of the five pages and all ONE HUNDRED AND SIX POSTS of that thread you haven't asked a single question or made a single comment on the "current  Arab Israeli conflict" ? 
Why should I? 

Because if as you only now say  the real and original reason for creating this thread was to understand the "Arab Israeli conflict" then that would have been the forum - the political forum - would have been the OBVIOUS PLACE to post it in and not the religion forum asking about the differences or non differences of anyone's god or if or not Jews and Muslim share the same god? 





But hey don't let the facts get in the road of your paranoia.

No. That will be Christians that do that on a regular basis. They even deny what is written in their own scriptures and they do let biblical facts get in the way of their misguided faith and beliefs. 


I conceded I was wrong -

About what exactly? 
GO and read my previous posts here and elsewhere. I am not going to repeat myself for you. 

Just so I am clear then . That will be that you no longer believe that we shouldn't be discussing religion,the bible, Jesus and god ?  

Are you now saying we  atheists and "non theists"  should not have to "take the bull by the horns" and  bare the burden of proving god does or doesn't exist? 

I never said that was wrong. 

 I am asking you if this still stands in your opinion?   Are we the atheist and the " non theist" to bare the burden of proof concerning the existence or no existence of god? 


In fact on numerous occasions I have explained myself.


 (A)
Not really. Are you now saying that the atheist has nothing to " take back" from the theists?    And you haven't explained the "truth" that you say the atheist has have you?

here is a solution  to (A)

Simply say if or not they also were silly statements for you to make too? <<<< that would clear that up nicely and  leave us with only your original "non theist" beliefs as you have reaffirmed for us below. 




Do you still believe "Jesus is a myth"?

Yes. 
Ok. we can come back to the why's and wherefores on a later thread.


Do you still consider Christianity  "a danger to our children and our existence"?


Yes.
Ok. we can come back to the why's and wherefores on another thread .




Do you still believe that Christianity is a "cancer that should be cut out" ? 
Yes. 

Ok. we can come back to the why's and wherefores on another thread at a later date.


Do you still believe the Christians holy book the bible " should be committed to the flames"? 
Yes.
(B) I will assume that you are  including all holy books and  literature from all cultures and all religions  and not just the  holy scriptures of Christians? 


And if you ask me any of these questions again -

I shouldn't need to if as long as you simply confirm (A) & (B) above, should I? 




. And I will act accordingly. 

 You do what ever you believe you have to do princess, but I will keep asking questions.


#81
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
@ Stephen

Not likely to happen. Gender has purpose, and that one is not mine. Accusation fail.
Topic's author
#82
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
Do what you have to do Stephen, it does not change the fact that you are boring.  

And just as you have the right to question  - I have the right to decline to answer.  Although on my part - I have already answered - you just seem to not be able to comprehend. 

And given that I am not your teacher (you keep telling me) then I don't have any desire to explain that further.  Go and find yourself a mentor or guru who can assist you with your questions.  


Topic's author
#83
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
 (A)
Not really. Are you now saying that the atheist has nothing to " take back" from the theists?    And you haven't explained the "truth" that you say the atheist has have you?

Yes, really I have explained it.  The atheist needs to take back the "front foot". The atheist is only able to respond - or react - never preempt. When the atheist stops being lazy - when the atheist realizes that the current status quo only ever enables them to react or to respond - not to pre-empt and decide the path that we want to go on - he or she will continue to be on the backfoot.  

I understand the burden of proof - yet - it seems to me that the entire notion of the burden of proof has been so wired - that  the argument can never be decided properly. 

As for the truth - the truth is - there is no god.  This is the truth that non-atheists hold to and have in their arsenal.  Why you would even need to ask this - is simply a nonsense.  

To me - it looks as though you are simply a paranoid white old man who MUST get his way and who when he does not resorts to what he knows best and this is to bully and act like a pompous arse.  Oh the privilege that exists in your tiny little half assed brain.  I suspect you like the Brother are actually just a fraud - which explains why you ask such dumb questions. 
#84
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967
 (A)
Not really. Are you now saying that the atheist has nothing to " take back" from the theists?    And you haven't explained the "truth" that you say the atheist has have you?

  The atheist needs to take back the "front foot". The atheist is only able to respond - or react - never preempt. When the atheist stops being lazy - when the atheist realizes that the current status quo only ever enables them to react or to respond - not to pre-empt and decide the path that we want to go on - he or she will continue to be on the backfoot.  
 What an absolute load of old bollocks?  I accept that you have admitted to your foolish statements  that not speaking about god , "the myth that is Jesus", the bible  and religion is certainly not the way to go.  And  I thank you for  reaffirming your beliefs too #80 I am sure that our resident scholar of ancient Greek Fauxlaw will excuse you for all of those beliefs that are totally contrary to his own. Unless he has faith  that are  you only pretending to be  anti just about everything religious, of  course. I say this because I have yet to read of his condemnation of yourself and  for your beliefs.  I mean, burning the holy word of god is right up there isn't it? It is one of the highest blasphemies in the eyes of his god as is not believing in Jesus AND the resurrection!  
 


I understand the burden of proof - yet - it seems to me that the entire notion of the burden of proof has been so wired - that  the argument can never be decided properly.


What "front foot" ?   The bible and Christians  make all the claims. I did't write the bible stating Jesus is god, did YOU? I didn't make the claim the Jesus walked on water did YOU?

 I don' t claim to have seen Jesus bring a dead man back to life,  do YOU?   No you don't and neither have I?  But here you are, still sticking to your belief that the atheist and the "non theist" should shoulder the burden of proof.   Let me tell you, your  "new self"  is already falling apart.

It is a universally  accepted fact that the burden of proof lies  with he that brings the claim.


As for the truth - the truth is - there is no god.  This is the truth that non-atheists hold to and have in their arsenal.  Why you would even need to ask this - is simply a nonsense.  

So the truth you say "we" have on our side it simply to say, there is no god.  Well then why even bother about telling us that "we"  should shoulder the burden of proof, simply not believing is enough for you, why do you feel that you have to prove there is no god. You never once have made that claim have you?


To me - it looks as though you are simply a paranoid white old man who MUST get his way

Non of that is true but you are entitled to your opinion of me that goes nowhere. 



and who when he does not resorts to what he knows best and this is to bully and act like a pompous arse. 

who have I bullied? 



Oh the privilege that exists in your tiny little half assed brain.


I feel your ad hominems towards me serves to  sooth and massage  your own  troubled mind rather than their intentions to offend me.  Because they don't  work on me you see.


  I suspect you like the Brother are actually just a fraud - which explains why you ask such dumb questions. 

I have nothing to be fraudulent about. I make my stance very clear on where it is that I stand on the scriptures. I always have done. Nothing to hide here princess. 

And I will say it again just for your benefit. I personally believe that there is another side to the Jesus story to the one that we have had rammed down our throats for millennia. I don't believe the so called "miracles" and I don't believe that Jesus was the son of any god in the biological sense.

 I believe that  he believed that he was rightful heir to the throne of King David,. he would have then - had ever got to sit on the "promised" throne -  would have been called  "the son of god"  just as his predecessors David and Solomon were also called. , IN FACT the whole nation of ISRAEL were called SONS OF GOD!!!  Read your fkn bible sunshine. Oh you can't , can you,  you have set alight and  burned yours haven't you? 

But this is the  stuff that the church like to keep from their worshipers. They totally rely on them not reading the bible for themselves and they do cherry pick only what they want their worshipers and followers to hear and then they have these cherry picked verses explained to them and   didn't Jesus do exactly the same thing.? He only taught certain things to certain people, didn't he? read your fkn bible princess. 

And THEN, and just like the person that you tell us that you " would be happy, no pleased to be ` mistaken for`#243 " they simply pass sit on. 


Then every one goes home to a nice Sunday dinner.




Topic's author
#85
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
I mean, burning the holy word of god is right up there isn't it? It is one of the highest blasphemies in the eyes of his god as is not believing in Jesus AND the resurrection!  
Don't get me wrong.  I think getting rid of the bible is a good thing.  Yet, I don't think it is true to say that it is one of the highest blasphemies in the church.  If it were the Koran - that would be true. But the bible at least for the christians I know is just a book. Even those who say it is the words of god.  again don't misunderstand me.  they would be pissed off if it was done - but would they consider it blasphemy? I doubt it or at least it would surprise me.  i think you are making too much of it.  For me - I think that like Hitler's mein kamph there are some books that ought to be wiped out. 
Topic's author
#86
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
What "front foot" ?   The bible and Christians  make all the claims. I did't write the bible stating Jesus is god, did YOU? I didn't make the claim the Jesus walked on water did YOU?

 I don' t claim to have seen Jesus bring a dead man back to life,  do YOU?   No you don't and neither have I?  But here you are, still sticking to your belief that the atheist and the "non theist" should shoulder the burden of proof.   Let me tell you, your  "new self"  is already falling apart.

It is a universally  accepted fact that the burden of proof lies  with he that brings the claim.
whatever Stephen. Keep your fingers in your ears. Shut your eyes. Don't think outside of the box - and continue your endless tirade of cyclical discussions with religious folks. 

I never said the b.o.p was not on the theists side. I said - I think the entire idea of b.o.p in this particular discussion is a waste of time because it is backwards.  And so - you go ahead and do what you do.  Eat shit and die. I don't care.  But you WILL never convince anyone of anything. Except you don't want the truth. 
Topic's author
#87
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
Of course you are a fraud.  everyone can see that.  using ad hominin is acceptable. You call me princess and dimtim. So get over it. 

You bully by continuing your tirade against me despite me answering your questions. You deny you are a bully - but that is too be expected.  Oh and this is far from me playing the poor old victim. I am no victim and I don't pretend to be.  

I am sorry - why should I care what you believe - you are a self proclaimed atheist - and the burden of proof is one the theist's side.  Your job is to respond - not to invent your own stories -  no one cares about your made up stories. 

Please stop being such a hypocrite.  And stick to the topic. 
#88
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967
I mean, burning the holy word of god is right up there isn't it? It is one of the highest blasphemies in the eyes of his god as is not believing in Jesus AND the resurrection!  
Don't get me wrong.  I think getting rid of the bible is a good thing.  Yet, I don't think it is true to say that it is one of the highest blasphemies in the church.

Blasphemy is an insult that shows contempt, disrespect, or lack of reverence concerning a deity, a sacred object, or something considered inviolable.

 YOU want to see the holy book of Christians and the "word of god" condemned to the fire.  Is this blasphemy? 


If it were the Koran - that would be true. But the bible at least for the Christians I know is just a book.

 How do you know that the bible is "just a book to Christians"? <<<<<<<Please don't ignore that question.


 The Quran promotes violence and intolerance towards the non believer  Islam is an  ideology of submission and perpetual Jihad against the non believer. The New Testament Jesus nowhere promotes violence. Quite the opposite, he says "love your enemies". Matthew 5:44
And you want to see it burned and eradicated from the face of the earth. 


Even those who say it is the words of god. 

You are making no sense again.    What about those that say the bible is the word of god?  Why would devout Christians deny the word of god and not believe it blasphemy for you to have done such a thing to the holy scriptures as to have condemned  their holy book to the flames as you do.




again don't misunderstand me.  they would be pissed off if it was done

# You don't saaaaaaayyy!?   Why would they? 


- but would they consider it blasphemy?


It matters not what it is that you believe I am making of it. And the only difference between the reaction to the burning of the Quran and setting to the flame  the holy book of Christians is that you won't have a fkn fatwa stuck on your head. 




 Your job is to respond -. 

 My "JOB" !??
I do respond and you don't appear to like me responding very much do you? 



Do you still believe the Christians holy book the bible " should be committed to the flames"? 
Yes.
 I will assume that you are  including all holy books and  literature from all cultures and all religions  and not just the  holy scriptures of faithful Christians? 




What "front foot" ?   The bible and Christians  make all the claims. I did't write the bible stating Jesus is god, did YOU? I didn't make the claim the Jesus walked on water did YOU?

 I don' t claim to have seen Jesus bring a dead man back to life,  do YOU?   No you don't and neither have I?  But here you are, still sticking to your belief that the atheist and the "non theist" should shoulder the burden of proof.   Let me tell you, your  "new self"  is already falling apart.

It is a universally  accepted fact that the burden of proof lies  with he that brings the claim.
whatever Stephen. Keep your fingers in your ears. Shut your eyes.

 I don't do neither.   And you appear to be awfully eager to promote  a belief system that you say is a danger to our children and existence and  a book and   the you want committed to the flames.


. I said - I think the entire idea of b.o.p in this particular discussion is a waste of time because it is backwards.

You have said many things regarding  the Burden of Proof even to the point  of denying that you had ever even mentioned the burden of proof  until I had to remind you that you certainly had. here>>

I have never talked about the burden of proof, not that I can recall anyway.  Let me be clear. Theists have the burden of proof. I cannot recall ever saying otherwise.  And I don't recall thinking otherwise either.  #61

So there it is,  it is on the likes of Fauxlaw to prove god exists and not the atheist and "non theist" such as your self to prove anything at all. Well done that is all I need clearing up from you on that particular point.


But you WILL never convince anyone of anything.

 Opinion . And you appear awfully worried that I just may get get someone to see AND understand AND agree what I have  so say.   But that has never been my intention. I even  don't care if no one  reads what I have to write. It doesn't deter or bother me in the slightest. It seems to bother you an awful lot though.


Except you don't want the truth. 

What truth?  Will this be the "truth" that you say "we" have  just by saying god does not exist? Or do you have some other truth now? 


I am sorry - why should I care what you believe 

Yes that's' a good question. Why do you?  But you keep coming back don't you? 


you are a self proclaimed atheist

Well I do struggle with that  you see. Because I believe the bible  only minus the miracles. So I am not ever sure what that makes me , IN YOUR own eyes and I don't particularly care. but I do know that it makes me more of a believer than you will ever be if we are to believe your anti religion stance? 



Of course you are a fraud.

I have nothing to be fraudulent about. I make my stance very clear on where it is that I stand on the scriptures. I always have done. Nothing to hide here princess. 

And I will say it again just for your benefit. I personally believe that there is another side to the Jesus story to the one that we have had rammed down our throats for millennia. I don't believe the so called "miracles" and I don't believe that Jesus was the son of any god in the biological sense.

 I believe that  he believed that he was rightful heir to the throne of King David,. he would have then - had ever got to sit on the "promised" throne -  would have been called  "the son of god"  just as his predecessors David and Solomon were also called. , IN FACT the whole nation of ISRAEL were called SONS OF GOD!!!  Read your fkn bible sunshine. Oh you can't , can you,  you have set alight and  burned yours haven't you? 

But this is the  stuff that the church like to keep from their worshipers. They totally rely on them not reading the bible for themselves and they do cherry pick only what they want their worshipers and followers to hear and then they have these cherry picked verses explained to them and   didn't Jesus do exactly the same thing.? He only taught certain things to certain people, didn't he? read your fkn bible princess. OH, I KEEP FORGETTING, YOU HAVE SET YOURS ALIGHT AFTER READING IT ONLY ONCE , HAVEN'T YOU!!? 

And THEN, and just like the person that you tell us that you " would be happy, no pleased to be ` mistaken for`#243 " they simply pass sit on. 


Then every one goes home to a nice Sunday dinner.


Please stop being such a hypocrite. 

 Hypocritical about what?

I have simply pointed out your mistake of using the given christian name for a Jewish god. And I do agree with the few here that Christianity cannot be excluded in this thread. But it isn't that important to me  and certainly not important now that you have changed the topic of the conversation mid thread to a political issue .




To me - it looks as though you are simply a paranoid white old man who MUST get his way.
Oh the privilege that exists in your tiny little half assed brain.


As i have said numerous times now.  I feel your ad hominems towards me serves to  sooth and massage  your own  troubled mind rather than do their intentions to offend me.  Because they don't  work on me you see.  As long as you don't go all disgusting  and filthy as you did after only being here a short while. Would you lie a reminder? #272


Topic's author
#89
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
I don't give a rat's arse about blasphemy.  I cannot blaspheme against something that does not exist.  And if religious people get upset - well good for them.  It is not my job to make people feel happy about nonsense.  

Ok, my bad.  Perhaps more than christians care about the bible. IDK.  It certainly sounds like you worship it.  Jesus said he came to divide family. To set man against son and mother against daughter. How is that peace? He told one of his disciples to go and get swords. Swords which then they used in a violent manner.  Jesus was often talking about hellfire - gnashing teeth and all of that. To say Jesus did not advocate violence is simply a lie. 

And you appear to be awfully eager to promote  a belief system that you say is a danger to our children and existence and  a book and   the you want committed to the flames.
Do you just read what I say - and think "he is saying the opposite of these things".  Stephen, I am not promoting the bible and I am not promoting christianity or indeed any religious position.  Stop being a jerk.  

And as I said - keep to the topic. It is about Jewish god and it is about Muslims god.  It is not about what your side speculation about Jesus is or christianity.  

Since you continue to distract us with your own agendas, please don't expect me to respond in this topic unless it is directly on point of the thread topic. 
#90
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,346
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Timid8967
there are some books that ought to be wiped out. - Timid8967
Mainly out of personal taste, but also out of logical argument. I'm not for any book being wiped out. Well. . . No, no, even some books I hate, I don't think I'll go the direction of wiping them out.
Personally I just hate to see things die, even books that I hate, I'd rather lock them deep behind red tape, but allow people to access them if they're determined enough.

Logical argument is it sets precedent for 'other people to burn 'your books, as well as allowing history to be repeated if people are not aware of it.
Though I suppose one could record 'of Mein Kampf, without needing the actual text, or the argument that evil should be stomped out.

I'm still not one for book burning myself, I think.