Is the god of the Muslims the same as the Jewish god?

Author: Timid8967

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#31
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@oromagi
Is Allah the same as Jehovah? Or are they two different gods?  

Some suggest that even in the OT - there are two gods - jehovah and lucifer.   Thor and Loki.  Two brothers forever in competition.

Can this be extended to allah and jehovah? 
Not brothers so much as two incarnations of the same God of Thunder.
Interesting. 


WIKI: YHWH was the national god of Ancient Israel. His origins reach at least to the early Iron Age and likely to the Late Bronze Age. In the oldest biblical literature he is a storm-and-warrior deity who leads the heavenly army against Israel's enemies; at that time the Israelites worshipped him alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal, but in later centuries El and Yahweh became conflated and El-linked epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone, and other gods and goddesses such as Baal and Asherah were absorbed into the Yahwistic religion.

Towards the end of the Babylonian captivity (6th century BCE), the very existence of foreign gods was denied, and Yahweh was proclaimed as the creator of the cosmos and the one true God of all the world.
When Greek culture spread across the Mediterranean, Romans found that their God of Thunder, Jupiter was a reasonable facsimile for the Greek Zeus and Etruscan Tinia (and later even Ba'al and YHWH) and so sought to synthesize beliefs and practices and consolidate various religions into a single harmonious tradition.  Similarly, YHWH was first an Israelite thunder god in a Pantheon of other Israelite gods who synthesized with the creation god El and other Canaanite traditions in Egypt to emerge as a henotheistic Hebrew god (That is, NOT "there are no other gods" but rather "thou shalt have no other gods before me."  After Babylonian captivity, the Jews emerged as a monotheistic tradition that suppressed other traditions by disallowing the mere mention of the many names of  God.

Allah is the Arabic word for El, the Canaanite creation god, and the Kaaba at the heart of Mecca was dedicated to that old Hebrew tradition (before other gods but not because there are no other gods) for a long time before synthesizing with the local Meccan pantheon around 600 CE, then turning to monotheistic reaction after Muhammad.   When speaking Arabic or Aramaic, Christians, Jews, and Muslims all use the name Allah to invoke God.  In Arabic, Muslims call the god of their prophets Moses and Jesus Allah and recognize a new synthesis between those traditions and the El of Meccan monotheism.
So are you suggesting that Jeohovah was firslty a tribal god and then morphed into something else? 
#32
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@Timid8967
Yes, a couple of morphs, both during eras of enslavement.  Thunder God of Israelite Pantheon => Supreme Thunder/Creation God of Hebrew Henotheocracy => Creation God of the Jews (and only God in that creation)
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-> @Polytheist-Witch
Thor and Loki are not bothers. Please refer to actual Norse myth not Marvel for discussion in a religion forum. 
That is probably a fair rebuke.  I did get it from the Marvel - but I seem to recall it in other discussions. But thanks for that. 
Also, Loki and Thor are not brothers in the Marvel Universe either although they once believed they were brothers.   Thor is Asgardian and Loki is a Frost Giant.
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@Timid8967

Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baháʼí Faith,[1] alongside Samaritanism, Yazidism, Druzism, and Rastafarianism,[1] are considered Abrahamic religions because they all accept the tradition of the God (known as Yahweh in Hebrew and Allah in Arabic) that revealed himself to Abraham.[1] Abrahamic religions share the same distinguishing features:[2]
The Abrahamic God in this sense is the conception of God that remains a common feature of all Abrahamic religions.[4] God is conceived of as one, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and the creator of the universe.[4] God is always referred to as masculine only,[4] and further held to have the properties of holiness, justice, omnibenevolence and omnipresence. Proponents of Abrahamic faiths believe that God is also transcendent, meaning that he is outside space and outside time and therefore not subject to anything within his creation, but at the same time a personal God, involved, listening to prayer, and reacting to the actions of his creatures.
Though I think it depends on 'who you ask.
I don't think it's a case of 'brothers, myself.

I 'also think the whole Lucifer thing is mostly overhyped modern invention, blasphemy, ignorance.
But I'm pretty ignorant myself, more trouble than I care for, to go reading old books, and other old books, to gain clearer understanding or make a point. As I don't believe in an afterlife or the supernatural myself.
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@Timid8967
Is Allah the same as Jehovah? Or are they two different gods?
They are both Abrahamic religions, so kinda yes. However, also kinda no.

To use an analogy: Imagine God was an elephant. One set of people study it, and conclude it's a herbivore; another group concludes it has a diet strictly consisting of vegetarians. The second group further declares the first group is lying when they say herbivore means no meat, when they know the elephant slaughters and eats any vegetarians it can find.

Both sets may have originally seen the same beast, but their interpretations differ so much that the same beast would not be concluded from their descriptions (maybe a distant cousin).
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@oromagi
Loki and Thor are not brothers in the Marvel Universe either although they once believed they were brothers.
Brotherhood goes deeper than blood. They were raised for thousands of years as brothers, with the time knowing Loki was adopted as a very very very recent development in the scale of their lives. While there is certainly strife from the revelation, it doesn't change anything about who they are as people.

If blood was everything to Thor, he would have relinquished the throne to any older sibling that showed up.
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--> @oromagi
Loki and Thor are not brothers in the Marvel Universe either although they once believed they were brothers.
Brotherhood goes deeper than blood. They were raised for thousands of years as brothers, with the time knowing Loki was adopted as a very very very recent development in the scale of their lives. While there is certainly strife from the revelation, it doesn't change anything about who they are as people.

If blood was everything to Thor, he would have relinquished the throne to any older sibling that showed up.
I've only seen the movies so I'm likely out of my depth- I expect you've read the canon.

Fine.  Let's strike the definitive,

DELETE: Loki and Thor are not brothers in the Marvel Universe either although they once believed they were brothers.
and fall back on vague innuendo

INSERT: And even in the Marvel Universe, Loki's parentage is supposititious.
I'll make no characterizations regarding Thor's outlook on Asgardian sucession beyond sic semper tyrannis


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@oromagi
Involving religion in popular media, appears to dilute religion. Seems to me.

Which seems 'bad from a theist perspective, I'd say. Since it makes a mockery of one's religion, confuses it's meaning.

Even bad from an atheist perspective, 'I think, a drop of ink isn't so bad as a bucket of ink mixed into water.
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--> @oromagi @Ragnar
Involving religion in popular media, appears to dilute religion. Seems to me.
I was under the impression that the Bible was the most popular media of all time.

dilute=less strong

Q: How do comic books make religion less strong?

Which seems 'bad from a theist perspective, I'd say. Since it makes a mockery of one's religion, confuses it's meaning.
Q: How do comic books mock one's religion?

Even bad from an atheist perspective, 'I think, a drop of ink isn't so bad as a bucket of ink mixed into water.
In this metaphor, what do the ink and the water represent?

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@oromagi
Q: How do comic books make religion less strong?
Well, as I see it, it makes it less 'true.
For instance, there's a number of YouTube creators that I enjoy, who use props and artistry in how they explain their points. It makes me suspicious when appeals to emotion are used rather than factual statement.

I'd rather religion just be stated for what it is understood to be, rather than making garish imagery in comic books, to appeal to children by 'show, rather than truth.
And if the 'truth isn't enough, ah well.

My view is, that comic books trivialize religion, I don't much care for religious artwork either, statues of Jesus on the Cross, Crosses themselves, stained glass images of Saints, murals on ceilings.

Q: How do comic books mock one's religion?
Perhaps it's the same vein as depictions of Muhammad, though that's a 'guess on my part.
I don't actually recall 'why they object to that.

But comics for instance, are stepping stones to 'other media, such as The Exorcist (1973).
Artistic depictions of religion start to seep into the public mindset, corrupt the source material, so to speak.

Even bad from an atheist perspective, 'I think, a drop of ink isn't so bad as a bucket of ink mixed into water.
In this metaphor, what do the ink and the water represent?
I suppose the ink is religion, and the water media.
Was really just an offhand thought.

#41
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@oromagi
To be clear, I only meant regarding them being brothers in the movies... I guess in the comics too... Going into the myths, gets really weird.
#42
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@Timid8967
All ideologically diverged from the same fundamental, regional and cultural beginnings....For sure.

Regional and cultural beginnings that predate Abrahamic theism......As do most regional and cultural beginnings predate Abrahamic theism.

The guy that went up a mountain, got stoned, and had a chat to a supernatural entity.....For sure.
#43
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@Timid8967
This is not a topic about christians.........................................Muslim and Jewish god or gods. christianity is irrelevant in this thread. 

 OK. But please do not deny later that it was YOU that said that and not anyone else.

And you must recognise that it was you that used the Christian name/ interpretation for the Jew god and not me. So you can see that the blinding mistake was your own.

Is Allah the same as Jehovah? Or are they two different gods?  #1  Timid8967

And I won't mention your other mistake concerning Thor and Loki and your Marvel comic version of mythical "brothers" that has created a separate  argument ON YOUR THREAD about Hollywood, comics and comic characters. I will leave it up to you to tell them also to stay on topic as this is your thread.



Is Allah the same as Jehovah? Or are they two different gods? [.................................................]
 This one is about muslims and jews......................................Muslim and Jewish god or gods.


Did the Hebrews and do the Jews call their god Jehovah? I thought their god was referred to as YHWH and didn't the god of Moses call himself as "I AM"? 
So what you should have asked then is -;  "  Is Allah the same as YHWH & I AM Or are they two different gods?

 And depending on who you ask or believe, one party will say they are the same god while another party will vehemently protest that they are not.



 But never the less, you have made it clear on many threads  that you are a "non theists",  which, with the creation  this thread about god and or gods completely flies in the face of everything you say about yourself and gods, here:


non-theists don't debate theology -  it is impossible because theology means - the study of god and non-theists don't believe in god. 

non-theists debate or discuss or rather dogmatically affirm discussions about some kind of god we think might exist but cant prove or disprove.  Really we are fools.  

How can we debate about something we don't actually know how to define - and by that I mean - there is no consensus on what god is? #20

So if that be the case, then shouldn't you first be asking or searching for the definition of what a god is or establishing the existence of god or gods before asking if two gods are the same or different?

There is a thread addressing just this here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6119-how-do-you-define-god  that I notice you haven't contributed to at all.
#44
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@Lemming
I'd rather religion just be stated for what it is understood to be, rather than making garish imagery in comic books, to appeal to children by 'show, rather than truth.
And if the 'truth isn't enough, ah well.

My view is, that comic books trivialize religion, I don't much care for religious artwork either, statues of Jesus on the Cross, Crosses themselves, stained glass images of Saints, murals on ceilings.
I think about the fact that for the majority of the Christian Era, the majority of Christians were not literate.  All those images, all that artwork was true illustration- illumination and exaltation of the subject in a voice no sermon might match.  I think that if a religion can't keep up with trends in art, it tends to become less relevant.

Q: How do comic books mock one's religion?
Perhaps it's the same vein as depictions of Muhammad, though that's a 'guess on my part.
I don't actually recall 'why they object to that.

But comics for instance, are stepping stones to 'other media, such as The Exorcist (1973).
Artistic depictions of religion start to seep into the public mindset, corrupt the source material, so to speak.
Would you call yourself an Iconoclast?

Even bad from an atheist perspective, 'I think, a drop of ink isn't so bad as a bucket of ink mixed into water.
In this metaphor, what do the ink and the water represent?
I suppose the ink is religion, and the water media.

I see, thx.






#45
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@oromagi
I think about the fact that for the majority of the Christian Era, the majority of Christians were not literate.  All those images, all that artwork was true illustration- illumination and exaltation of the subject in a voice no sermon might match.  I think that if a religion can't keep up with trends in art, it tends to become less relevant.
I think there's truth in those statements.

Would you call yourself an Iconoclast?
Well,  I wouldn't say I attack cherished beliefs or institutions.
Nor do I have an interest in destroying images used in religious worship.
Nor in the past, for either of those actions.

I 'can appreciate a movement which seeks to abolish the veneration of icons and other religious images.
But I'm an atheist these days, with no aspirations of improving the world at large.
I'm mainly after my own enjoyment, though there are 'moments I'm helpful.
I'm not interested in. . . pursuing charitable work.

Publicly volunteered a 'bit in Scouts, never made it to Eagle though.
By the time I came into my own independence in life, I was an atheist.
. . .
Not that an atheist can't work to help others, be charitable.
But I'm not that kind of atheist.

Returning to the question, no, I don't think I'm an Iconoclast, though if I was religious I probably would be.
Not the the point of 'forcing my ideals on others, or destroying property, though.
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@Timid8967
Muslim Jew Christian (and all other minor derivatives).....You can't separate them Timmy....So no point in going there.

It's the bloke in the sky that they all nod to.
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zedvictor4 wrote: 
-->@Timid8967 Muslim Jew Christian (and all other minor derivatives).....You can't separate them Timmy....So no point in going there.


He can Vic lad. He's a "non theist",  don't you know?

And we all know from the horses mouth what "non theist" think about theology and god/s in particular, don't we.

Dimtim8967wrote: 
non-theists don't debate theology -  it is impossible because theology means - the study of god and non-theists don't believe in god. 

non-theists debate or discuss or rather dogmatically affirm discussions about some kind of god we think might exist but cant prove or disprove.  Really we are fools.  

How can we debate about something we don't actually know how to define - and by that I mean - there is no consensus on what god is? #20

So it appears then that "non theists" can move the goalposts anytime they choose to move them and you have no right in showing him his own contradictions and perpetual inconsistencies.
#48
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@Timid8967
There is a third option. neither of the two religions are perfect and both have faulty recollections of what occurred. It does not need to be an either/ or.  This does need to mean that both of these religions do not have some truth about what happened. 
if an essential theological point is the accurate transmission of the text from divine to man, then it isn't an issue of recollection. 

Then surely - both gods are identical until then - when the deviation takes place.  
So you are saying that at that moment, a new God is created? I guess that that's a different approach, but it means the same thing -- the God worshipped by each is distinct.

After all, if Jews say "my god made the world". And Muslims say "my god made the world".   And if both are correct - then surely there must a connection? 
In this case, where the two actions are not mutually exclusive, there need not be two actors.


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@Stephen
 I thought their god was referred to as YHWH and didn't the god of Moses call himself as "I AM"? 
The four English consonants might be those, but might not be. Either way, Jews don't refer to God by four English letters. Also, God never referred to himself as "I AM". The word means "I will be".
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@rosends
The four English consonants might be those, but might not be..........Also, God never referred to himself as "I AM". The word means "I will be".

 I see what you are saying there Rosi. 



But you do know I was speaking bible as in ; 
Exodus 3:14 King James Version


14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

 I suppose that could be taken to mean, `mind your own business who I am, just get on and do as your are commanded `....  in English of course.

Or in the Jew case then, `mind your own business who I am, - `I will be who ever I want to be` -   just get on and do as your are commanded `?

But we can safely take it, can we, that he was never called or referred to as Jehovah by Jews , Israelites or  Hebrews, can we?  A yes or no will do. 


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#51
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@zedvictor4
Muslim Jew Christian (and all other minor derivatives).....You can't separate them Timmy....So no point in going there.

It's the bloke in the sky that they all nod to.
Hello Zed,

I am not separating them. I am just not including the christian god here. The christian god is clearly not the same as the Jewish or the Muslim god. Theirs is different because the include Jesus.  The muslims and the jews however have only one god - and he is not Jesus.    

Hence why this is about jews and muslims only.  
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@Timid8967
Not all Christians consider Jesus 'God though, my family certainly didn't.

Most Christians believe that Jesus was both human and the Son of God.[13] While there has been theological debate over his nature,[t] Trinitarian Christians generally believe that Jesus is the Logos, God's incarnation and God the Son, both fully divine and fully human. However, the doctrine of the Trinity is not universally accepted among Christians
Additionally, regarding Muslims, I 'think, Jesus is
A major figure in Islam,[40][42] Jesus (often referred to by his Quranic name ʿĪsā) is considered to be a messenger of God

#53
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@Timid8967
And you brought up Norse/Germanic mythology. Mr. I don't want to discuss religion or give it air. 
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@Stephen
No to "jehova"

that is an Anglicization of a mispronunciation.
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Q: How do comic books mock one's religion?
I wouldn't say mocks but it certainly messes with the myths giving people the wrong impression. I realize if you think they are bs who cares but when discussing religion or the details one should try be accurate. 
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@Timid8967
Hence why this is about jews and muslims only.  

 Whose Jew  god you have identified by his Christian/ Anglican title of Jehovah.

Dimtim8967 wrote: Is Allah the same as Jehovah? Or are they two different gods?  #1




 But never the less, you have made it clear on many threads  that you are a "non theists",  which, with the creation of  this thread about god and or gods completely flies in the face of everything you say about yourself and gods, here:


non-theists don't debate theology -  it is impossible because theology means - the study of god and non-theists don't believe in god. 

non-theists debate or discuss or rather dogmatically affirm discussions about some kind of god we think might exist but cant prove or disprove.  Really we are fools.  

How can we debate about something we don't actually know how to define - and by that I mean - there is no consensus on what god is? #20

So if that be the case, then shouldn't you first be asking or searching for the definition of what a god is or establishing the existence of god or gods before asking if two gods are the same or different?

There is a thread addressing just this here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6119-how-do-you-define-god  that I notice you haven't contributed to at all.

#57
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@Polytheist-Witch
And you brought up Norse/Germanic mythology. Mr. I don't want to discuss religion or give it air.

 A1+   #20
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@rosends


.
Rosends, ungodly rewriter of the Hebrew Bible and other Jewish writings, and runaway from Jewish biblical axioms, calls His Yahweh God a LIAR, and now doesn’t know when to quit to save himself from futher embarrassment within this forum,


YOUR QUOTE OF BEING BEREFT AND NONSENCICAL: “I'll type slowly and use small words because I want you to be able to follow along and you might not have access to an aide who can help you with the tough parts.”
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6132-is-the-god-of-the-muslims-the-same-as-the-jewish-god?page=1&post_number=21

ROSENDS, to help me in trying to understand your wanting intellect, show us in how one can tell when you typed slowly!  Therefore, which parts can be visually seen in your post #21 within this thread where you actually typed slowly like you said you did? 

To the membership, this is the inept mental state from ROSENDS as shown, and that I have to deal with when easily making him the outright Hebrew Bible fool!  LOL

.

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@Timid8967


Timid8967,

YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE IN POST #26: "So please stick to the specific topic.  Muslim and Jewish god or gods. christianity is irrelevant in this thread. "

Christianity is NOT irrelevant to your thread because of the simple FACT that Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate, understood?  Therefore Jesus is in the mix of your titled thread as well if the serial killer God Yahweh is concerned, get it?  :(. To save time, actually LEARN about the religions that you talk about, okay? Thank you.

.
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@rosends

.
Rosends, ungodly rewriter of the Hebrew Bible and other Jewish writings, and runaway from Jewish biblical axioms, calls His Yahweh God a LIAR, and now doesn’t know when to quit to save himself from futher embarrassment within this forum,

ROSENDS, barring your flustering post #21 above in typing "slowly," which was great comedy on your part, let me zone in on your continued Hebrew Bible ignorance relative to your notion that the Abrahamic religions all have separate gods, okay? Thank you.


1.   The Hebrew Jesus is your serial killer Hebrew Yahweh God incarnate, therefore, Yahweh and Jesus are the same God, end of discussion for 2 Gods being the same ONE GOD, understood Bible fool? Yes? Maybe?

2.   Relative to the Islamic God Allah being the SAME ONE GOD that the Jews and Christians worship, the Christian Catholic faith accepts that the Islamic god Allah is the same ONE GOD as Jesus, which in turn is the Hebrew God Yahweh. Are you able to understand this simple syllogism thus far? Yes?  

Therefore a Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 841).   GET IT?  

Therefore the Muslims accept that the serial killer Hebrew God named Yahweh of Abrahamic decent, is the same God that they worship, therefore deducing its down to its irreducible primary, YAHWEH, JESUS, AND ALLAH are all the SAME ONE GOD!  

3.  Furthermore, the Muslim faith states with specificity they accept the god that has been sent down on Abraham and the tribes of Judaism, which is again your brutal serial killer Yahweh God.  Whereas of which was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets where they make no division between any of them, and to surrender to Him as the serial killer Yahweh (Quran, chapter 2:136)  Get it Bible fool?

4.  Mainstream Muslims have to agree they worship the same God that Christians or Jews worship AS THE ONE SAME GOD because within the Quran there's the Biblical story of Jacob asking his sons whom they'll worship after his death. "Jacob's sons replied, 'We will worship the God of your fathers' — Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac. He is the God,” (Quran 2:133)  Therefore this God that Jacob worshipped is the God that Abraham, Isaac worshipped, and is your brutal serial killer Yahweh God that Muslims worship today!  Understood, or do I need to get my neighbors 2 grader boy within this forum after school to explain it to you more simply, huh?

Therefore at your bewildering expense once again, the blatant FACTS shown above make you the continued historicity of religions a FOOL because ALL, and I repeat, ALL Abrahamic Religions share the SAME ONE GOD as explicitly shown, but not the same religion, no matter the disturbing outcome it may show!  2+2=4, and oil and water don't mix, and you remain one of the most Bible ignorant Hebrews this forum has ever seen!


ROSENDS, now, get your sorrowful ass back into the Flat Earth thread once again, where I will continue to show your blatant ignorance in that thread as well, understood? GO, RUN, GET THERE SO I CAN EASILY SHOW YOUR CONTINUED BIBLE STUPIDITY, HURRY!  I SAID GO!  LOL!

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