Suppose you are talking to a Holocaust survivor that renounced their faith after their time in Auschwitz. How would you go about trying to reconvince them that there is a god, or that this god loves them?
Why should a Holocaust survivor believe in God?
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If you mean their god, the Jewish and/or Christian God then I agree, doubt the crap out of him.
The real god is more of a bystander who sometimes intervenes, we are like an enjoyable television show or experiment to them (I don't feel it's appropriate to call god an 'it', I'd say her as I find god to be more feminine than masculine however I would say they/them if we discuss 'sex' as opposed to gender).
The real god(dess) isn't concerned with being evil hut also isn't concerned with being entirely benevolent. I am certain she/they experimented a while back and realise it's boring as fuck to have a world where everyone is always kind and predictably selfless, even for the humans involved.
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@Sum1hugme
Why would you waste your time? The Nazis are the supreme example of why god is just a jumped up deadbeat.
If god was real, he would not have let the Jews suffer in such a manner.
Unless god is really ALLAH. And then perhaps he might have. with delight.
Seems to me that - it was a blessing for these people to lose faith in a useless god.
this question is not new -- why is there suffering? How can one believe in or have faith in a God who allows these things to happen?
But for some, these events actually strengthen faith.
If you want a full playing out of both sides of the argument, I recommend watching a wonderful movie called "The Quarrel" -- here is a vimeo link to it (with German subtitles? Irony...)
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@Timid8967
If god was real, he would not have let the Jews suffer in such a manner.
Yet he let them wonder the dessert, be drowned, turned to salt and be slaves in Egypt. The Torah pretty much says, "Hey I will let you rot once in a while".
I am out to convince anyone they should believe in gods. If they have lost their faith for whatever reason that is their choice.
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@Sum1hugme
How would you go about trying to reconvince them that there is a god, or that this god loves them?
God’s creation of human persons with free will is something of tremendous value. It might be the most significant thing about life itself. God could not eliminate much of the evil and suffering in this world without thereby eliminating the greater good of having created persons with free will with whom he could have relationships, and who are able to love one another and do good deeds. Suffering is therefore an inextricable part of humanity, but one that ultimately proves God's grace.
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@Kadin
A camp inmate had no free will to decide to be in a concentration camp. Therefore, god chose the free will of the Nazis over the free will of his chosen people, and the other victims of the Nazi Regime.
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@Kadin
If you saw a woman being raped (as many women in the camps were), do you have a moral obligation to attempt to stop the rapist? Is the free will of the rapist more important than the free will of the raped?
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@Polytheist-Witch
And your point is ???
You have to admit that God believes in fairness. He gave free will to viruses and cancer.
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@Sum1hugme
Different people are convinced differently.
People have different reasons and motivations, different depths for what they 'do believe.
It's a question easier answered with some context.
'I think.
Myself I have difficulty with 'answering the question, because it's not 'my motivation.
I have an easier time justifying what I 'do believe, than what I don't.
In addition the two questions
"Why should a Holocaust survivor believe in God?"
and
"How would you go about trying to reconvince them that there is a god, or that this god loves them? "
Are different question, with different answers.
. . .
'I think faith is a deep well, of many sources.
Not 'just one.
It seems to me more complicated than asking for a single simple argument.
Ask me how to make cake, and my saying,
Flour, Sugar,
Is an insufficient answer.
. . .
Out of curiosity,
Have you ever read,
Man's Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl?
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@Lemming
No I have not read that book.
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@Timid8967
Unless god is really ALLAH. And then perhaps he might have. with delight.
Funnily enough, the islamic Egyptian Government protected known Nazi war criminals. And to my understanding, in an official government report stated that the holocaust helped with the palestine problem
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@Sum1hugme
This is a great question to ask and I was actually curious about this myself. I had the honor to talk and interview a Holocaust survivor and this question was answered for me.
He stated, (not in exact quotes)
"I kept to my practice of religion because it gave me a sense of sanity in times where I felt nothing. If I were to abandon what I believe in, I would reassure the negative feelings of emptiness and loneliness. But with my faith and knowing that there could be something waiting for me at the end is what kept me from killing myself, knowing that one day I could see eternal heaven. Sure, I could blame god all I want for this event, and I even questioned why. But my faith kept me sane in a terrible times and I believe I would be in a worse position if it weren't for God."
"I kept to my practice of religion because it gave me a sense of sanity in times where I felt nothing. If I were to abandon what I believe in, I would reassure the negative feelings of emptiness and loneliness. But with my faith and knowing that there could be something waiting for me at the end is what kept me from killing myself, knowing that one day I could see eternal heaven. Sure, I could blame god all I want for this event, and I even questioned why. But my faith kept me sane in a terrible times and I believe I would be in a worse position if it weren't for God."
To sum it up, he believed that religion and eternal life at the end gave him a sense of sanity in insane times. I can't speak for all victim, but I got to ask a victim themselves this question
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@Sum1hugme
Wow! I did not know that. I was merely considering why some theists might think the holocaust was a good thing. And Muslims and some Christians find the Jews offensive. Another good reason to not turn to god in the first place.
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@Sum1hugme
A camp inmate had no free will to decide to be in a concentration camp. Therefore, god chose the free will of the Nazis over the free will of his chosen people, and the other victims of the Nazi Regime.
For God to intervene and prevent humans from catastrophic mistakes and tragedies, He would have to take away their free will. This would undercut the most significant thing about being human. It is not that God "chose the free will of the Nazis" over anyone else; it's that He chose to provide humans with free will in general. Allowing humans freedom comes with the potential for many horrific negatives, but the alternative would be no freedom and no free will which is worse. Nobody wants to be a slave, mental or otherwise.
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@Sum1hugme
If you saw a woman being raped (as many women in the camps were), do you have a moral obligation to attempt to stop the rapist? Is the free will of the rapist more important than the free will of the raped?
I believe I would have a moral obligation to stop the rapist. I do not believe the rapist's "free will" is more important than the victim's will. What I meant before is that if GOD did not give humans free will (the freedom to sin in big or small ways) it would change the entire scope of what it means to be human.
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@Kadin
For God to intervene and prevent humans from catastrophic mistakes and tragedies, He would have to take away their free will. This would undercut the most significant thing about being human. It is not that God "chose the free will of the Nazis" over anyone else; it's that He chose to provide humans with free will in general. Allowing humans freedom comes with the potential for many horrific negatives, but the alternative would be no freedom and no free will which is worse. Nobody wants to be a slave, mental or otherwise.
God had no problem taking away the free will of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea when they were coming to attack the Hebrews. This is a situation where there is a clear cost-benefit ratio.
Either:
1. Limit the free will of a handful of evil men by preventing their conceiving and execution of the Final Solution
2. Allow, by virtue of inaction, the total destruction of millions of lives and therefore, millions of wills.
We agree that one has a moral obligation to attempt to stop wrongdoing, such as rape, even if the attempt may not succeed. God, being all powerful, could only succeed. He is therefore, morally obligated to intervene.
This "free will defense" is a complete joke, bordering on insult, in it's level of vacuous reasoning.
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@Kadin
I believe I would have a moral obligation to stop the rapist. I do not believe the rapist's "free will" is more important than the victim's will. What I meant before is that if GOD did not give humans free will (the freedom to sin in big or small ways) it would change the entire scope of what it means to be human.
In the situation of rape, one individual is using their free will to take away the free will of another individual. This forces a choice between which will is more important to preserve in the eyes of the witness with the power to intervene. If you do nothing, you are choosing, by virtue of inaction, the free will of the rapist to rape, over the free will of the victim to not be raped.
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@Sum1hugme
Suppose you are talking to a Holocaust survivor that renounced their faith after their time in Auschwitz. How would you go about trying to reconvince them that there is a god, or that this god loves them?
Couldn't one argue that their survival is a testament to that?
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@Athias
Not as strongly as they could argue that their survival was fundamentally random, because that would selectively ignore the majority that died
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@Sum1hugme
Not as strongly as they could argue that their survival was fundamentally random, because that would selectively ignore the majority that died
Then on what premise does this supposed Holocaust survivor renounce his faith?
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@Athias
That could be very subjective, but for sake of discussion, let's suppose they reject it because their god cannot possibly be all loving, if he is capable of helping them when they need it most.
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@Sum1hugme
That could be very subjective, but for sake of discussion, let's suppose they reject it because their god cannot possibly be all loving, if he is capable of helping them when they need it most.
How did randomness ever play a role in this (this of course being a reference to the statement you made earlier)? There are stories in the Torah for example that explicitly delineate mass murder (e.g. Amalekite-Israelite conflicts.) "How can a God be all loving, yet allow such and such..." is consistent with (internet) atheist reasoning, as opposed to one who is discouraged about his/her faith.
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@Athias
Randomness played a huge role in who lived and who died. If you've ever listened to the stories of those who survived the holocaust, there are so many chance happenings that contribute. In one story I was listening to, she had been selected for the gas chamber multiple times, and she snuck out of the line. All it would have taken was a single guard to notice and she would've been shot on the spot. It was a random moment of compassion from an unexpected source that allowed her to get on the truck that took her to the factory work that let her regain some weight from higher rations. Randomness played a huge role in survival probability.
It is consistent with the old testament for god to order mass killings, but that contradicts the claim that he is all loving. The holocaust is just another, more modern example of why he couldn't possibly be all loving and capable of intervention.
It is consistent with the old testament for god to order mass killings, but that contradicts the claim that he is all loving. The holocaust is just another, more modern example of why he couldn't possibly be all loving and capable of intervention.
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@Sum1hugme
I get where you're going but your blind to the overall message... a "God" a "heaven" a new way of living... a good way of living, a new life and everything being good and okay... is actually more appealing to someone that has suffered. That's how religion got popular. Yes, you will work in the fields, yes, you will die for my cause, yes, you will be a slave to my world... but when you die, you will have your heaven.... that is the big lie any person that wants to be at the top will tell. So it makes sense for someone suffering to look for "something better" ... it's a sick manipulation on the weak minded. So it makes sense why they believe in god.
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@Sum1hugme
Randomness played a huge role in who lived and who died. If you've ever listened to the stories of those who survived the holocaust, there are so many chance happenings that contribute. In one story I was listening to, she had been selected for the gas chamber multiple times, and she snuck out of the line. All it would have taken was a single guard to notice and she would've been shot on the spot. It was a random moment of compassion from an unexpected source that allowed her to get on the truck that took her to the factory work that let her regain some weight from higher rations. Randomness played a huge role in survival probability.
Who was the unexpected source of compassion, and why was it random?
It is consistent with the old testament for god to order mass killings, but that contradicts the claim that he is all loving.
How? How is killing and love mutually exclusive?
The holocaust is just another, more modern example of why he couldn't possibly be all loving and capable of intervention.
That's internet atheist reasoning. There's nothing that excludes one's being loving from one's lack of intervention.
475 days later
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@Sum1hugme
Suppose you are talking to a Holocaust survivor that renounced their faith after their time in Auschwitz. How would you go about trying to reconvince them that there is a god, or that this god loves them?
Gods destroyed all life on earth by a flood, yet the Jews did not renounce their faith in the God of Abraham.
The Holocaust actually strengthened the faith of the Jews with a renewed determination to rebuild their Jewish homeland.