I'm agnostic and I think we need a law based on the 10 commandments of the bible.

Author: TheUnderdog

Posts

Total: 40
Topic's author
#1
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
The 10 commandments of the bible are:

  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. You shall make no idols.
  3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
  4. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
  5. Honor your father and your mother.
  6. You shall not murder.
  7. You shall not commit adultery.
  8. You shall not steal.
  9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. You shall not covet.

I don't think this list is perfect, but it's a good base for our legal system.  The first 4 commandments should be removed.  The 5th one should be a legalized recommendation.  Keep commandment 6.  Keep commandment 7 unless both spouses consent to it.  Keep commandment 8 and 9, and maybe the government should lead by example by not stealing as much money as it does.  Remove commandment 10, as coveting is wishing you had more, and this sparks ambition, which is good.  A punishment should be added for every commandment as well.  I also think a commandment should be made against rape.

That makes my proposed commandments the following:


  1. Honor your father and your mother.  Punishment is up to 3 lashings if the parents desire this.
  2. You shall not murder.  Punishment is life imprisonment.
  3. You shall not rape.  Punishment is life imprisonment.
  4. You shall not commit adultery unless both partners consent.  Punishment is mandatory counseling to prevent further adultury.
  5. You shall not steal.  Punishment is 2 weeks in jail doing community service for every $1000 worth of stuff stolen.  Sentence can be reduced by 2 weeks per $1000 that is returned.  After the sentence (since you stole due to lack of money), the state offers you a job doing productive work, and this gets you out of poverty so you don't have to steal again.
  6. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.  Punishment is the punishment your neighbor would have received.

The reason for this change is because there are 6000 to 7000 federal laws and many more state laws.  "According to the data, the 1970s and 1980s were the high mark for regulations, when the total number of rules put in place were in the 6,000s and 7,000s." (PolitiFact | Ron Paul says 40,000 new laws were "put on the books" on the first day of 2012).  This makes it much harder for people to become lawyers which then causes lawyers to pay extremely huge legal fees, it requires people to pay huge sums of money for lawyers (the lawyers have no choice but to charge these high fees because law school is very expensive and lawyers have to recoup the costs.  The way to make law school cheaper is to have less rules).  Our laws have also required people to fill out so much paperwork before opening up a business.  The American commandments, based off of the 10 commandments, is a libetarian, pro freedom, pro American way to make laws that I think should be implemented in the United States to get rid of the thousands of federal, state, and local laws surrounding our lives.  Rather than have thousands of laws, I propose having just 6.  It worked for the people of ancient Israel and it would work for people living here.

Thoughts?
#2
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
The ones that matter already have laws. And five, if under 18, can lead to an incorrigible charge in some states.  Not sure adultery needs to have a law or a punishment. 
Topic's author
#3
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
If the ones that matter already have laws, then why do we need 6000 laws to prevent 6 things from happening?


And five, if under 18, can lead to an incorrigible charge in some states.
I don’t understand what your saying here.  Can you clarify?

Not sure adultery needs to have a law or a punishment.
It should if both partners aren’t on board with it.
#4
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
If the ones that matter already have laws, then why do we need 6000 laws to prevent 6 things from happening?
What 6000 are needed to address these six? There are more crimes then the ones mentioned here: Criminal, Civil and Traffic. 

I don’t understand what your saying here.  Can you clarify?
Some states have a status offense called incorrigible you can charge your kids with for not listening. 

It should if both partners aren’t on board with it.
Legislating morality never really works. 
#5
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
So.... one version of the 10 commandments (you know, as opposed to the other two)... is a good base for legality... but you know, only if we add in a tad of caveats, remove half of the moral commandments, and also add one in. Also - no - just no - specifically to number 5:
You do realize that biblically - this leads to parents getting away with abuse? With never being questioned? Dogma and indoctrination? No - it should NEVER be any sort of legal recommendation to honour your father and your mother - also - let's interpret this charitably, what about gay couples? What about single couples? What about polyamory couples (and don't even try to argue that the bible is against polyamory, it isn't.)

So um... originally this definitely did not say murder, and it definitely was not referring to the legal definition of murder - it was referring to killing in general - but you know -as to avoid the biggest contradiction in the bible - its changed to murder. Regardless, this would disavow self-defence, and all that - which I guess already happens. Also -also - in the bible, anything which is considered a "sexual crime" is considered adultery, such as gay people being gay. So, no, neither of these things should be illegal, especially not in the context of the bible. Also... no, cheating on your partner definitely shouldn't be illegal, especially not when there are things like abusive relationships and such. Though some prenups do stuff like that, I typically disagree. 

  It worked for the people of ancient Israel and it would work for people living here.
Makes me want to laugh at you - I am being serious-  if you are claiming that SERIOUSLY - it'd be like saying: "Women were casually raped in the past, and them being casually raped now is just fine." The fact that something happened in the past and you thought it "worked" is by no means evidence that it would work ethically today - nor do I even think it is ethical then. 

To sum up my thoughts, this is stupid - we already have laws for the biggies, and the majority of the 10 commandments (that you've presented) are bullshit, so no - there is literally no reason to use the 10 commandments as a framework. 



#6
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@TheUnderdog
@Theweakeredge
"5. Honor your father and your mother."
You do realize that biblically - this leads to parents getting away with abuse?...
  This is a good point. There are parents that deserve contempt and ostracization. Not to mention that the biblical punishment for disobedient children was death. Hardly a standard for modern legal justice.
#7
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
The entire point of Christ responding to a question posed to him re: what were the great commandments, he replied [Matthew 22] with two, which, in effect replace all 10 of those "lead-by-the-nose" commandments in Exodus, not to mention the balance noted in Lev, Num, and Deut. Christ's point was exactly contrary to what you ask, because we should not need to be led by the nose. Christ's response:

1. Love God
2. Love your fellow man

Be keeping #1, the first 4 of the mosaic 10 [plus most of Lev-Num-Deut] are met in full, without our being led by the nose, pushing that nose into someone else's shyte.
By keeping #2, we no longer need leading by the nose relative to one another, in spite of our respective shyte. 

By keeping both, we summarily eliminate every social ill we encounter in today's society, bar none. We cannot keep one without the other, and it does not matter which one is chosen. Both are required for the full effect of completely ameliorating our society. As an agnostic, or even an atheist, you can still accommodate a prudent tradition that is represented by the idea that, when setting the table for a meal, an extra place-setting is set, just in case someone unexpected arrives, and good graces advise have a place for them to sit with your meal serving. If that honored, missing, but anticipated guest happens to be God, is that skin off your nose? Nope, it's just being neighborly.
#8
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@TheUnderdog
We already have enough laws in our legal systems. Why add more laws? 

Honoring parents is already legalised - we just call it anti-hate law - or respect law or not allowed to discriminate again people on the basis of agist principles.  We have also expanded it include more people than simply parents.  

Adultery is an interesting one.  It does make sense to have sanctions on the marriage contract. Otherwise it is a meaningless legal document. But surely you would want to include within this - no rape. No domestic violence, etc.  Still - there is a morality question. 


#9
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
  1. Honor your father and your mother.  Punishment is up to 3 lashings if the parents desire this.
Lashing? Really? I thought this is the 21th century.

#10
ronjs
ronjs's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 268
0
2
2
ronjs's avatar
ronjs
0
2
2
-->
@TheUnderdog
if the commandments were followed the world would be a profoundly different place
#11
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@ronjs
I entirely agree with your #10. To simplify, I would suggest the mere two commandments Jesus offered in Matthew 22:  Love God, love your neighbor. The power of love, if used correctly, has the motivation to treat everyone with respect, meaning all 10 mosaic commandments are covered, let alone every other commandment documented by scripture. They would, in effect, Summarize the entire U.S. Code to less than 50 pages, so simple and profound are these two great commandments. And if practiced, they would solve every single social ill we face today, because their adherence demonstrated by us would, on their own, signify our complete compliance with the attitudes presented in the Sermon on the Mount, which amounts to the best political, let alone religious platform ever devised.
#12
Kadin
Kadin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 35
0
0
3
Kadin's avatar
Kadin
0
0
3
The only commandments that should be laws are those against theft, murder and bearing false witness in the form of libel or slander. The other commandments are religious or spiritual in nature. 
#13
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@TheUnderdog
I'm agnostic and I think we need a law based on the 10 commandments of the bible.

 Well the first  four are all to do with obedience to this vain jealous god of war before we even get onto the - thou  shalt not's. 


  • I am the LORD thy God.
  • No other gods before me.
  • No graven images or likenesses.
  • Not take the LORD's name in vain.

Topic's author
#14
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
What 6000 are needed to address these six?
There are over 6000 laws on the books.  I don't think America needs 6000 laws.

Legislating morality never really works. 
So if someone cheated on you, you wouldn't care?  There is an exception if both the husband and the wife are fine with it.
#15
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
There are over 6000 laws on the books.  I don't think America needs 6000 laws.

Those range from white collar to traffic court. It covers more than the few things we are addressing here. 


So if someone cheated on you, you wouldn't care?  There is an exception if both the husband and the wife are fine with it.
Yes but what does the law have to do with my hurt feelings?
Topic's author
#16
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Theweakeredge
(In reference to honor your mother and father)
You do realize that biblically - this leads to parents getting away with abuse? With never being questioned?
If your parents are being abusive, then you wouldn't honor them.  You don't have to obey your parents on everything and still honor them.  For example, you probably honor America, even though you disagree with some of it's policies.  Moreover, the vast majority of parents love their children enough not to cause abuse.  If their kids state that one of the parent's rules is unjust, then the parents often modify that rule.  It happened in my house.  The parents used to restrict the kid's WIFI to 2 hours a day.  But then the kids gradually got that number up to something else.


So um... originally this definitely did not say murder, and it definitely was not referring to the legal definition of murder - it was referring to killing in general
If this was referring to killing in general, then the bible would advocate vegetarianism, which it doesn't.  The bible prohibits murder, not all killing.

 Also -also - in the bible, anything which is considered a "sexual crime" is considered adultery, such as gay people being gay.
Homosexuality is not banned under my 6 commandments, unless the gay people are committing adultury that their partners don't consent too.

Also... no, cheating on your partner definitely shouldn't be illegal, especially not when there are things like abusive relationships and such.
If your partner doesn't consent, it should be banned.  Although there should be a commandment prohibiting assault, with the punishment depending on the damage.  This outlaws abusive relationships, where there is a huge amount of assault.

Makes me want to laugh at you - I am being serious-  if you are claiming that SERIOUSLY - it'd be like saying: "Women were casually raped in the past, and them being casually raped now is just fine."
Under my 6 commandments, rape is banned and punished with life imprisonment:
3. You shall not rape.  Punishment is life imprisonment.

#17
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
And here you are isolating my statements from their context - represent them honestly and you'll get a response - here - I'll start it for you:
  It worked for the people of ancient Israel and it would work for people living here.
Makes me want to laugh at you - I am being serious-  if you are claiming that SERIOUSLY - it'd be like saying: "Women were casually raped in the past, and them being casually raped now is just fine." The fact that something happened in the past and you thought it "worked" is by no means evidence that it would work ethically today - nor do I even think it is ethical then. 
Yet you tried to represent the text as if I had said that people being raped wasn't covered by your laws - I was talking about how your justification regarding how it "worked" in the past is a fallacy. There's your freebie, correct the rest yourself - because I don't like dealing with people who are dishonest
Topic's author
#18
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Sum1hugme
Not to mention that the biblical punishment for disobedient children was death.
I think when the bible said that, they meant putting the idea of children disobeying their parents to death.  Meaning, if a child disobeyed their parents, it was the parent's job to put the idea that the child had to death.  Children in bible times were comparably rebellious to children today.  If this verse was implemented literally, there would be a lot of dead kids back then.
Topic's author
#19
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Timid8967
We already have enough laws in our legal systems. Why add more laws? 
I want to replace the thousands of laws in our legal system with 7 easy to remember laws.  This includes the 6 ones I mentioned, plus a law against assault, with the punishment for that depending on the damage.

Adultery is an interesting one.  It does make sense to have sanctions on the marriage contract. Otherwise it is a meaningless legal document. But surely you would want to include within this - no rape. No domestic violence, etc.
Already covered.  My 7 commandments are:

  1. Honor your father and your mother.  Punishment is up to 3 lashings if the parents desire this.
  2. You shall not murder.  Punishment is life imprisonment.
  3. You shall not rape.  Punishment is life imprisonment.
  4. You shall not commit adultery unless both partners consent.  Punishment is mandatory counseling to prevent further adultury.
  5. You shall not steal.  Punishment is 2 weeks in jail doing community service for every $1000 worth of stuff stolen.  Sentence can be reduced by 2 weeks per $1000 that is returned.  After the sentence (since you stole due to lack of money), the state offers you a job doing productive work, and this gets you out of poverty so you don't have to steal again.
  6. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.  Punishment is the punishment your neighbor would have received.
  7. You shall not assault.  Punishment depends on the damage.

The fear of domestic violence is covered under my 7th commandment.
Topic's author
#20
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Intelligence_06
Lashing? Really? I thought this is the 21th century.
It's only 3 lashings.  I don't think it would be that big of a deal.  So what if someone gets lashed 3 times as a punishment.  It's not like they are being shipped 100x.
Topic's author
#21
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Stephen
I stated that I would repeal the first 4 commandments.
#22
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@TheUnderdog
I think when the bible said that, they meant putting the idea of children disobeying their parents to death. Meaning, if a child disobeyed their parents, it was the parent's job to put the idea that the child had to death. Children in bible times were comparably rebellious to children today. If this verse was implemented literally, there would be a lot of dead kids back then.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
English Standard Version

A Rebellious Son
18 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20 and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 (A)Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. (B)So you shall purge the evil from your midst, (C)and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

#23
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@TheUnderdog
Also,

Deuteronomy 22:13-21
English Standard Version
Laws Concerning Sexual Immorality
13 “If any man takes a wife and (A)goes in to her and then hates her 14 and accuses her of misconduct and brings a bad name upon her, saying, ‘I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her evidence of virginity,’ 15 then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate. 16 And the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man to marry, and he hates her; 17 and behold, he has accused her of misconduct, saying, “I did not find in your daughter evidence of virginity.” And yet this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.’ And they shall spread the cloak before the elders of the city. 18 Then the elders of that city shall take the man and whip[a] him, 19 and they shall fine him a hundred shekels[b] of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name upon a virgin[c] of Israel. And she shall be his wife. (B)He may not divorce her all his days. 20 But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, 21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and (C)the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has (D)done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father's house. (E)So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Topic's author
#24
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Sum1hugme
If that law was put into practice, then over 90% of sons back then would have gotten stoned to death, because every son rebelled against their parents at some point.  I think that verse was twisted similar to how things are twisted in the game telephone.  In the game telephone, one person deliberately messing up what was said or multiple people accidentally messing something up will lead to an inaccurate bible.

Moreover, assuming these things that were said was what God intended, a law based off of the 10 commandments won't include this portion because the first 4 commandments got repealed under this model.  My commandments and punishments that would come with those commandments are:

  1. Honor your father and your mother.  Punishment is up to 3 lashings if the parents desire this, but the maximum punishment must be used very rarely.
  2. You shall not murder.  Punishment is life imprisonment.
  3. You shall not rape.  Punishment is up to life imprisonment, depends on the state.
  4. You shall not commit adultery unless both partners consent.  Punishment is 10 hours of mandatory counseling to prevent further adultury.
  5. You shall not steal.  Punishment is 2 weeks in jail doing community service for every $1000 worth of stuff stolen.  Sentence can be reduced by 2 weeks per $1000 that is returned.  After the sentence (since you stole due to lack of money), the state offers you a job doing productive work, and this gets you out of poverty so you don't have to steal again.
  6. You shall not bear deliberately false witness.  Punishment is the punishment the defendant would have received.
  7. You shall not assault.  Punishment depends on the damage caused and is left up to the states, but can't be punished by more than 1 week, unless damage was very serious.

Since obeying God no matter what isn't mandatory with these commandments, this means that women who aren't virgins on their wedding day won't get stoned and rebellious sons won't get stoned either.
#25
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@TheUnderdog
Why repeal the first four? Just amend them to enable the state to be the final authority. 

  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
The State is the only supreme authority. No one is above the law.


  1. You shall make no idols.
There shall be no competition of authority. And no individua human rights.  If the state says one thing - everyone else asks "how high"


  1. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
If you don't want to be part of this state - you will die or be put out. 

  1. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
The only holidays the state declares are legal and must be sacrosanct. 



#26
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@TheUnderdog
If that law was put into practice, then over 90% of sons back then would have gotten stoned to death, because every son rebelled against their parents at some point. I think that verse was twisted similar to how things are twisted in the game telephone. In the game telephone, one person deliberately messing up what was said or multiple people accidentally messing something up will lead to an inaccurate bible.
  This is obviously an ad hoc rationalization, when your previous ad hoc rationalization was refuted In black and white text.

Honor your father and your mother.  Punishment is up to 3 lashings if the parents desire this, but the maximum punishment must be used very rarely.  
  There are contemptible, abusive parents. Suppose there are two parents who have a child. The parents are drug addicts, and strike and curse their children. Then the children run away. They are recovered by the police. Under your law, those same parents could have the government lash their children for trying to escape the abuse.
#27
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@TheUnderdog
What are you agnostic about? Are you agnostic about being a Christian or not a Christian... or are you agnostic about in the sense that everything could be true. There are different agnostics, and i think you are dueling with Christianity or not. In that sense i get it. The 10 comm. or whatever is pretty whatever. As a "overall" agnostic... i think the only important one's have to do with true evil... murder, rape, imprisonment... hurt to others in a malicious way. Everything else, i don't find evil, and need no laws. 

Cheating on your wife hurts, but... what if it needed to happen? Taking the lords name in vein, and believing in other gods, could be wrong or bad, but what if it's needed? All the other ones i feel are needed. So, as an agnostic spiritual atheist, i think you're way off... bc we already have laws that will punish the true evil in those commt's. Everything else is how you torture yourself, or punish yourself.... and the only person that can make you "eternally" suffer is yourself, so i think they are needed for you to learn. No one cares enough to make you suffer as much as you can make yourself suffer. So the other's are needed to make you wake the F'ck up. To realize you are your own god, and in that... all of your major suffering is in your own hands. That is enough punishment. It requires no laws... just time and living. You will make yourself suffer, you will punish yourself. Bc no one is going to sit there and make you suffer... they have better things to do. 
Topic's author
#28
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Timid8967
People shouldn’t be forced to live their country.
Topic's author
#29
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Outplayz
Cheating on your wife hurts, but... what if it needed to happen? 
Cheating doesn’t need to happen.
Topic's author
#30
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 4,340
3
5
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
5
10
-->
@Sum1hugme
Honor your mother and father can be repealed.  The rest of my commandments I think work though.