Is the claim that we have no free agency a cop-out?

Author: fauxlaw

Posts

Total: 58
#31
Matthew_18
Matthew_18's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 19
0
0
0
Matthew_18's avatar
Matthew_18
0
0
0
-->
@zedvictor4
And may I say that your own quaintness, is a welcome addition to Debateart.
Thank you for such an eloquent description. I am very new to this sort of thing and, scanning through some of the posts I do detect a slight brashness with some members who I would presume come and go anyway and most would be of an unsavory persuasion.
#32
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@fauxlaw
There’s the argument we have no “free agency” in a naturalistic sense; that our interwoven biology and environment are so complex that it gives us an illusion. And then there’s the argument that given God is eternal and omniscient (all-knowing), he knew how everything would pan out before he created anything. 
#33
Matthew_18
Matthew_18's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 19
0
0
0
Matthew_18's avatar
Matthew_18
0
0
0
-->
@zedvictor4
And evolution being theoretical (just like religion)
Whichever side one chooses to take I think that religion can be more defined as having evolved from an ideology and not just theory alone whereas evolution is nothing more than a theory, albeit one that has been all but dismissed anyway.
#34
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen


Stephen,

YOUR QUOTE AGAIN IN SHOWING THAT THE BIBLE INEPT FAUXLAW STILL RUNS AWAY FROM HIS ALLEGED GREEK KNOWLEDGE:  " god has a plan for us  V god does not interfere in our plans".   Just breathtaking Brother. I wonder, is that a Greek thing?"

We have asked FAUXLAW to show us the Greek translations to possibly help him in not stepping into the proverbial poo all the time with certain passages, where instead of stepping in it, FAUXLAW falls head first into the cess pool!  But, as continually shown, FAUXLAW doesn't bring forth the Greek translations anymore, where when he did, it was his OWN INTERPRETATION of what they meant!  Huh?

Look at FAUXLAW flailing around in his own thread like a fish out of water, saying one thing about Jesus as God, and then another thing that blatantly contradicts what he said before. It is truly sad to watch this pseudo-christian "try" and have a modicum of respect, where myself, you, and many others have shown what I have always proposed, is that FAUXLAW is the #1 Bible fool and runaway from same within this prestigious forum, BAR NONE! 


Lets watch FAUXLAW embarrassingly continue to remove one foot to insert the other within his own thread, and then bring forth this embarrassing fact to him and the membership, as if they haven't seen this action before in his behalf!  LOL!

.
 
Topic's author
#35
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@zedvictor4
So do you think that there never was a beginning and never will be an end?
Absolutely. That is the only definition that fits the term "eternity." Mathematically, it's a line, not a ray, or worse, a segment.
#36
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Matthew_18


Matthew_18,

Since you are new upon this esteemed forum, and in speaking for Jesus and myself, we are in the hopes that you do not be an equal to the totally Bible inept FAUXLAW, the creator of this hypocritical thread, as if we need another minion of Satan posting in the Religion Forum, understood?!

I have a theory, and that is any pseudo-christian like you that wants to post in this forum should at least fill out their biography section FIRST and foremost  whereas you have not done so to this point.  When a pseudo-christian like you doesn't perform this very simple act, it shows that you are either too embarrassed to give your division of Christianity, or you are hiding something that you are to embarrassed to have known about your true modus operandi.  To be taken seriously, when you don't have a biography you open yourself up to ridicule when you tell others certain things that you disagree with about their division of faith, get it?

.


Topic's author
#37
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Reece101
Yes, God knows all things [may not yet have experienced all things, however, but that's entirely another thread]. However, that it no way interferes with our having the gift to be agents unto ourselves. That God knows what we will do has no bearing on what we, ourselves, will choose to do. It merely means that if we choose to follow the plan God has for us, we will end up thinking and doing the things he expects. If we do not, again, by our choice, we will not end up where his plan would have put us, but that was entirely by our choice, as said. God knows in advance how and what we will choose, and will support, but not coerce, anyone.
#38
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@fauxlaw
he person who was his God, and so on. I have said elsewhere that this process is eternal, both forward and backward, and that there are generations of gods and man, that man can become  a god and beget new generations of man, infinitely into the past, and infinitely into the future, all of us, in all generations, learning line upon line, precept on precept, with the sure knowledge that there is no end to what can be learned, and acted upon by that learning. Is there a progression above God? Why not? All else is infinite; why not progress?
Based on this, I must apologize for mistaking what you were arguing. I thought you were arguing the traditional god of the bible, this is something entirely different that I've never really heard of before, Sorry for the misunderstanding. 
Topic's author
#39
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Matthew_18
Just so you're clear, not to be clouded by a certain Bible pounder, this thread is not hypothetical, else you would not be able to enter your own comments. You have, so the reality of it is solid enough. The pounder resides in his own world of illusion. So be it. In that illusion, he imagines that he has banned me from the site. That, also, is obviously in error. So be it. Welcome aboard.
Topic's author
#40
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@ludofl3x
No problem. I know, sometimes, I can weave a cat's cradle. And I know that my views do not always align with traditional Christian theology. Some think I am a heretic because of it. So be it. I am crystal clear in my own head, and would be glad to discuss further with you anytime. I mean discuss, not pound away. Thanks for the insight. Much appreciated.
#41
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@fauxlaw
Yes, God knows all things [may not yet have experienced all things, however, but that's entirely another thread].
That would include being omnipresent (all-present) I think. They’re one in the same to a degree.

However, that it no way interferes with our having the gift to be agents unto ourselves. That God knows what we will do has no bearing on what we, ourselves, will choose to do. It merely means that if we choose to follow the plan God has for us, we will end up thinking and doing the things he expects. If we do not, again, by our choice, we will not end up where his plan would have put us, but that was entirely by our choice, as said.
Choice is the decision to act on an option of multiple. It says little about free-agency or determinism/predestination. 

God knows in advance how and what we will choose, and will support, but not coerce, anyone.
It seems like you’re flip-flopping a bit.
#42
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@fauxlaw
By the way, in case you were curious, the best rebuttal to your OP is that it's a cop-out for a Theist to not admit this contradiction if their God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent all at once.
#43
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
The real god isn't a hero, he/she/they is an antivillain (a villain with redeeming qualities, inverse of an antihero). Once you properly understand this as well as that at the core, reality is random and the 'god' has merely hijacked it, you'll then realise how god could let some free will seep through so as to not let reality be entirely predictable and boring for the god to view and experience.
Topic's author
#44
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
this contradiction if their God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent all at once.
Not a contradiction even if God is not omni^3 all at once, or all the time, because nothing compels God, let alone us, to act using all our various types of powers we possess all the time, or all at once. That's just imposing a limit on God that he should not act less than omni^3 whenever more power is not needed. Why should he? Why should we?
Topic's author
#45
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
I find the argument, "If God is omnipotent, why doesn't he stop all human suffering" accomplishing nothing but limiting ourselves, and limiting God, let alone trying to say the result of God not stopping all suffering is proof he does not exist, else he would stop it.

What if it is not in God's purpose to end all suffering? Not yet. He will, ultimately, but you're not going to like the consequence of waiting for him to do it because the responsibility really always has belonged to us.

What if God is waiting for us to decide that we can stop it, ourselves? We can, and should. That happens to be our purpose, but we [some of us] continue to blame God when we know it is we, ourselves, who cause our suffering. We should not even be blaming Satan, because, after all, "the devil made me do it" is wrong, too. WE did it. We always have done it. We will do it unless we figure out our personal responsibility to stop it. Why is that so hard to understand? Well, first, because we [some of us] manage to convince others that God is responsible for everything that happens. 

What if God is not responsible for anything but putting us here to work out our mutual problems by ourselves, just to prove we can. 

What is stopping us from solving our problems? We look in it every morning, it it reflects nothing but our true nemesis: ourselves. We are to blame for the suffering we cause.
Why should we expect God to fix it for us as if we were helpless children? When are we going to decide to be the peacekeeping adults in the room?
Topic's author
#46
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
Okay, the foregoing in #45 was not directed to everyone. Some do get it, after all, and many of you are actually doing something about it, being successful peacekeepers, not sowing discord. but sowing peace, "not as the world giveth..." and you who do know exactly what that means. No, you're not perfect, nor am I, or anyone.  All who try will slip sometimes. That is to be expected.

But just like the guy who consistently gets up again and rejoins the effort is aware good is being done, all of us should also fail, get up, and try again. It's worth it. The point is, it isn't even accepting Christ as our Savior, but leaving it at the declaration and never doing anything more about it.

Faith without works is dead.

After all, did Jesus ever say, "I believe in me. I am saved," retire, and go fishing? In case you're not sure, no, he did not. Why should we?
#47
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@fauxlaw
Not a contradiction even if God is not omni^3 all at once, or all the time, because nothing compels God, let alone us, to act using all our various types of powers we possess all the time, or all at once. That's just imposing a limit on God that he should not act less than omni^3 whenever more power is not needed. Why should he? Why should we?
You asked two questions at the end, they are very different. The answer to the first is more pertinent to what we're debating so I'll stick to that.

The reason that the Christian God should use his omnipowers is that he's benevolent but that only scratches the surface.

I would like you to mechanically explain a physical pathway along which an entity is aware of absolutely everything, is everywhere at all times and also is capable of all things to unlimited capacity and yet is capable of letting anything inside this realm be free of its control. 

What you ask is 'should God intervene?'

What is actually more perplexing is can the Christian God physiologically, mechanically ever not intervene? All of his non-interventions are merely not stopping what he himself knowingly set in motion anyway.


Topic's author
#48
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
what he himself knowingly set in motion anyway.
Your answer is in front of you, should you bother to crack the book open. After "setting in motion," God gave Adam the injunction to "haver dominion over the Earth." Sounds like God gave Adam the task of managing Earth's affairs, and Adam's affairs, along with his descendants. Must I define "dominion," and its implications, including, by the way, the power to act by his/our own agency?

I'll let you find it.
#49
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@fauxlaw
How? Is Adam still in charge from Heaven or something?

How did God relinquish control? He designed Adam's brain, soul, hormones and life events. He knew how Adam would react to them and use any privilege granted. Don't you see the irony?

As for the dominion, that doesn't mean Adam controlled will of others, it's just a metaphor for humankind ruling Earth.

Topic's author
#50
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
How? Is Adam still in charge from Heaven or something?
I repeat, emphasized:  God gave Adam the task of managing Earth's affairs, and Adam's affairs, along with his descendants.  That means we share the responsibility of dominion, yeah?

Don't you see the irony?
What irony? I've cited Genesis 2 before, two or three times. Maybe someday it will cease being ironic: "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Adam is given free will to eat of every tree, but there is a consequence [bearing personal responsibility by one's free choice] to eating of one tree. Nevertheless, Adam my do so if he chooses. Free agency is what that is called, not God's coercion or predestination. No irony.

As for the dominion, that doesn't mean Adam controlled will of others, it's just a metaphor for humankind ruling Earth.
One for three. That's a start.
#51
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,081
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@fauxlaw
So how do you overcome the something from nothing principle?


A theist/deist will often just say, because a GOD is eternal.....Which really is, just avoiding a pertinent question that doesn't have an answer.

One might just as well say therefore, that everything is eternal...... And not bother with the GOD bit.....Still avoiding a pertinent question without an answer.


Though, A GOD principle (not to be confused with a deity) is either nothing or something, and also something from nothing, and perhaps also sequentially something. 

But is there a satisfactory answer to the pertinent question?
Topic's author
#52
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
So how do you overcome the something from nothing principle?
#53
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
Why do people assume the universe has ever been nothing? If energy is eternal then it's always been there. If we are of "God" and he/she/it is eternal then so are we. Which the spirit is. 


Topic's author
#54
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
100% in agreement.
#55
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7


.



.
FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts from me, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times, and goes against Jesus in taking care of the poor, says that the Bible is a FRAUD, and calls the Christian faith as DISHONEST, and still wants to be called a Christian,  and has run away from 18 posts to him in one thread alone, and is too SCARED to discuss with me the above substantiated FACTS, 

FAUXLAW'S INSIDIOUS CIRCULAR REASONING THAT HE IN NO WAY CAN OUTRIGHT PROVE IN HIS POST #39:  "The pounder resides in his own world of illusion. So be it. In that illusion, he imagines that he has banned me from the site. That, also, is obviously in error. So be it. Welcome aboard."

Barring the fact that you are LYING again in that I want you banned, and where you cannot provide ONE POST to substantiate this deceiving claim, because Jesus and I need you upon this forum to show what a Hell bound Bible inept pseudo-christian like you actually are, understood #1 Bible fool and runaway of same? Huh?  Yeah, you do. Therefore, in you being here, I get to show the membership your runaway status to Jesus' inspired words in the embarrassing links towards you below, sorry, really. :(

Topic's author
#56
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
A certain sand pounder accuses circular reasoning, such as that I consider Jesus a liar, and that the Bible is a fraud. I invite the pounder to specifically cite my statements on this site to that effect. I want to see those specific phrases cited, using those specific,  accused words from my keyboard. The sand pounder cannot, but he can, and will do be certain, try.
#57
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen


.
Stephen,

Oh, oh, as seen regarding my undisputed Jesus inspired posts, I have a little green circular icon at the bottom which states “reports have been handled.”  Unfortunately, it was FAUXLAW that couldn’t save themselves from my superior Biblical knowledge over theirs, other than to run away from it crying to the moderators for help! Furthermore, I am to leave FAUXLAW alone for 20 days to let him “try and heal" and regain what composure he has left within this prestigious forum.
.
#58
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@BrotherDThomas
You sound surprised  by his actions, Brother.