Relevant Questions For Christians

Author: Mandrakel

Posts

Total: 51
Topic's author
#1
Mandrakel
Mandrakel's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 144
0
2
2
Mandrakel's avatar
Mandrakel
0
2
2
1) How do you have your hair cut? (Leviticus 19:27 You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.)

2) How well done do you enjoy your steak? (Leviticus 19:26 Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it)

3) Would you or do you have any tattoos on your body? (Leviticus 19:28 Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord)

4) Do you condone homosexuality? (Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination)

5) Do you often pick cherries?
#2
MisterChris
MisterChris's avatar
Debates: 45
Posts: 2,897
5
10
11
MisterChris's avatar
MisterChris
5
10
11
I could explain to you the difference between the old covenant with Israel and the new and why God's commands were the way they were but I don't believe you have any interest in learning. 
#3
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@MisterChris
To be fair - given that logic - one could dismiss the 10 commandments
#4
MisterChris
MisterChris's avatar
Debates: 45
Posts: 2,897
5
10
11
MisterChris's avatar
MisterChris
5
10
11
-->
@Theweakeredge
You can. Unless they are repeated in the New Testament, which they are (Except for not working on the Sabbath).
#5
MisterChris
MisterChris's avatar
Debates: 45
Posts: 2,897
5
10
11
MisterChris's avatar
MisterChris
5
10
11
-->
@Theweakeredge

If you're interested


#6
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@MisterChris
Arguably those aren't apart of the new covenant though - the mere fact that its stated in the new testament doesn't make it a new covenant - I mean if you were to simply argue that anything in the new testament is new covenant, then you would be accepting a lot of rules that I'm sure you wouldn't like - but more importantly - Jesus makes it pretty clear that their is only one way to get to heaven in the new covenant, through accepting him as your savior and asking for forgiveness for your sins - that's technically the only rules - acknowledging that you are sinning and accepting Jesus. 
#7
MisterChris
MisterChris's avatar
Debates: 45
Posts: 2,897
5
10
11
MisterChris's avatar
MisterChris
5
10
11
-->
@Theweakeredge
Yes, we are "released from the law" but Jesus affirms the moral importance of all the commandments for believers except the lawful requirement to rest on the Sabbath. It's not what saves you nor is it part of the new covenant and that's not what I'm saying. God commanded Israel to uphold certain commands as part of the old covenant. Some are issues of basic morality that obviously stay true for modern day Christians in order to be moral servants of God (don't murder, duh.). Others are just issues of ceremony and legality, which no longer apply. The New Testament is very explicit that ceremony and legality do not apply to the modern Christian but that the issues of morality do. No Christian should be lying, stealing, murdering. It's not what saves them, but it is a matter of importance to be obedient to God. If Scripture is inerrant and what it says important, than those moral virtues being mentioned do mean a lot even if they aren't part of the "New Covenant."
Topic's author
#8
Mandrakel
Mandrakel's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 144
0
2
2
Mandrakel's avatar
Mandrakel
0
2
2
-->
@MisterChris
 .........but I don't believe you have any interest in learning. 

That's belief for you.
#9
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@MisterChris
Quite an interesting interpretation and I would agree to that being probably one of the better interpretations of the bible; however, if you accept that the virtues encouraged in the new testament by Jesus are what Christians ought to follow - then I would have to disagree with the holy book. 

For one - Jesus's views regarding slavery - and this is a virtue he is teaching not a legal matter (namely obedience):
"Ephesians 6:5-8 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free."
Note that the bible makes a clear distinction between slaves and servants:
"1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust."
Analyzing the first passage Jesus instructs that slaves obey their masters with a sincere fear and "trembling" - just as they would christ. Notice also that it doesn't exclude masters who abuse their slaves, as given the context, it is broadly about who you ought to respect and obey, such as parents - and its a part of the wide "armor of god" narrative that the letters are on about. 

If we were to approximate the time period and location of Jesus we have the Roman Empire around the rule of Nero - and here we see the average treatmeent of slaves under the roman empire:
"Slavery in ancient Rome differed from its modern forms in that it was not based on race.
But like modern slavery, it was an abusive and degrading institution. Cruelty was commonplace.

A common practice
Slavery had a long history in the ancient world and was practiced in Ancient Egypt and Greece, as well as Rome. Most slaves during the Roman Empire were foreigners and, unlike in modern times, Roman slavery was not based on race. Slaves in Rome might include prisoners of war, sailors captured and sold by pirates, or slaves bought outside Roman territory. In hard times, it was not uncommon for desperate Roman citizens to raise money by selling their children into slavery.

Life as a slave
All slaves and their families were the property of their owners, who could sell or rent them out at any time. Their lives were harsh. Slaves were often whipped, branded or cruelly mistreated. Their owners could also kill them for any reason, and would face no punishment. Although Romans accepted slavery as the norm, some people – like the poet and philosopher, Seneca – argued that slaves should at least be treated fairly." [LINK]]
Given the treatment of slaves that they were likely addressing, that is telling slaves to obey inhumane masters and people who are willing to whip and beat them. I'm sorry but I find extreme problems with the direction to "obey" their masters, not for masters to let their slaves free, or for masters to treat their slaves right, but to "obey their masters". Given the historic principle of the time, it is extremely unlikely that the slavery being mentioned here was mere "bond-serventry". 

#10
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Theweakeredge
Christians should. Jesus only had two.
#11
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
Would you mean elaborating?
#12
MisterChris
MisterChris's avatar
Debates: 45
Posts: 2,897
5
10
11
MisterChris's avatar
MisterChris
5
10
11
-->
@Theweakeredge
Whether you agree with New Testament ethics is another matter completely, and one that would no doubt require some scholarly research on my part to debate properly. I have read well on the Old Testament, but am comparatively ignorant on some New Testament matters
#13
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Theweakeredge
Christ had only two commandments. Love the Lord, God and Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Nothing else. Matthew 22:34-40
#14
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
I disagree - Jesus dictated that the only way to get to heaven is by accepting jesus as their lord and savior, blah, blah, - that is the only "commandment" that they are held by in order to be Christians, at least by biblical standards.
#15
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Mandrakel
I notice your Q1-4 all reference Mosaic law of the Old Testament, or the Talmud for Jews. Christians believe the Mosaic law was utterly fulfilled by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. At least, that is what he said. The references to the O.T. in these regards, as well as even the Ten Commandments are completely fulfilled, and therefore not applicable in favor of the Gospel of Christ. This is why when asked what the great commandment was, Christ answered that there were actually two: Love God, and love your neighbor [meaning everyone else]. Under these two laws, all previous Mosaic laws are consumed. If we love God, are not the first 5 commandments covered? If we love our fellow man, are not the last 5 covered, along with every other detailed Mosaic law? All the laws of blood sacrifice are replaced by our remembrance of the sacrifice of Christ's body and blood, and our commitment to sacrifice a broken heart and contrite spirit for the commission of our sins. All the laws of our proper activities are covered by our proper observance of the Sermon on the Mount, and our proper devotion to God by our observance of the Bread of Life sermon. The fact is, our proper observance of just these two sermons, if consistently practiced, would eliminate every single social ill we suffer today, bar none. Tell me what commandment of the O.T./Talmud can accomplish that?

Q5: Every season; I have two cherry trees, also an apple, nectarine, and two apricots,  the produce of which I share with my neighbors, either fresh or freeze dried.
#16
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Theweakeredge
No, that is not all. After accepting Christ, it is our command to be like him, to do the works he did. That is, as James tells us, "faith without works is dead." 
#17
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@fauxlaw
So you would argue that one has to accept the commands issued by Jesus? In only the New Testament or also the Old Testament?
#18
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Theweakeredge
Like I said, the OT is interesting for historical detail reference, but Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. I'll follow him, and by his precepts, and my acting on them, not just accepting them, I have met and fulfilled all the O.T. has to say by command, and more. That leaves me a lot of work to do; I am trying to be about it.
Topic's author
#19
Mandrakel
Mandrakel's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 144
0
2
2
Mandrakel's avatar
Mandrakel
0
2
2
-->
@fauxlaw
I notice your Q1-4
Q5: Every season
In other words, you have no intention whatsoever to address the issue raised in the OP whatsoever, i.e. that Christians discriminate against and vilify gays. You are not obliged to take part in discussing serious issues and if persistent trolling and dodging is your want it doesn't bother me. It is you who is showing yourself up and being consistent with and proving the point that those of a strong religious disposition are both ignorant and arrogant.

#20
eventuality001
eventuality001's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 66
0
0
3
eventuality001's avatar
eventuality001
0
0
3
-->
@Theweakeredge
Hello   Theweakeredge


I had noticed the great statements you had posted about  the fact that in the Bible   -  there were Servants  and  Masters.

The  term   "  MASTER  "   in the first century and going back in time     -    simply defines the meaning of someone in  charge  or  in  control.

This is no different   than today's  term  for       -       a    "  BOSS  "  or    "  SUPERIOR  "   or     "   SUPERVISOR  "

Someone at your hypothetical  place of work could approach you and   with a   self-asserting  and  demeaning  or  aggressive  tone,  they could loudly   -  say to you

I  AM  YOUR   SUPERIOR   or    I am your  BOSS   -   and to you and the way you view the Bible   -   this would seem to you as if you were back in the Bible days.

Do you think it is pretentious to try to pretend that there was not a working-class society  in the Middle East who worked for a living as indebted servants  or  bondservants?     

There was not an overabundant supply of modern dispensaries and hot plates and  TV  dinners and hot pockets on every corner block with microwaves and full service provisions.  Every single move you make in the old world was a carefully decisive pre-planned maneuver ,  that affected not only your own life and your own family's lives     -  but also affected and impacted the lives of many others around you. 

  There was no soup line funded by the state and welfare office in every division of the cities   -  people worked with the processing of a pre-planned goal and the  Master or the    "  BOSS  "  or    "  SUPERIOR  "   or     "   SUPERVISOR  "  took your debts and took responsibility for your debts and bills  with the contract that you would  complete your contract fully and your debts you and your family had incurred would be paid off directly  by  your  Master or the    "  BOSS  "  or    "  SUPERIOR  "   or     "   SUPERVISOR  "

The Bible is not written for the  DESIGN and  purpose for people  2000  years later to go back into the ancient language,  in  this  ancient  Old  World and begin to manipulate and  pretend that the Old World Technology  and  Terminology Bible  is somehow influencing them to  retard and drag   today's civilization and society back into the stone age.

The message was for directing the Old World in its ability to convey the message that  servants   - indebted servants  who have  incurred  debts, bills  and  who owe monies and beneficiaries   -    they are to obey and serve in fear and trembling and reverence and up  - most respect and continue the traditional methods of taking obligation  and  responsibilities seriously and not throwing off their obligations.

Fear and Trembling    - this was an era and time period where  Israel  faced  horrible times, their countries economy was declining  -   the Roman Canaanite  italian  Government  was  inflicting  taxes  upon  them,  there were millions of Jews who were indebted to one another.   

There was an upper-class society of Jews who were working for the  Roman Canaanite  italian  Government and Italian  society  -  Jewish Physicians, Tax Collectors and Merchants and Religious seculars  who were involved in working with the  Roman Canaanite  Italian society   -  and there was the  underclass society of Jews who were homeless, impoverished, sickly and feeble and in an eternal state of debt.

The Roman Canaanite  Italian Government was arresting people, torturing people, crucifying the Jewish people and beating them to death, and demanding  taxes  paid .           -       -    The  Roman Canaanite  italian   Government  was  threatening to destroy their  families and  civilization   -

  Polygamy  Marriage  was  banned and outlawed and a pagan  oppressive  anti    -  Family,    anti   -  God  regime was demanding that the  Jews  were to  turn in and hand over their  religious Prophets and would-be religious leaders who would assume  to govern Israel independently.

Jesus Christ and his family were hunted down by  The Canaanite  italian Government under King Herod and every firstborn male within his entire home town were slaughtered and killed when Jesus was just a little baby.

Please, reconsider your perception of the language of the Bible and take the time to read the environment in which the Bible is written.

Paul was speaking to Jews under the foot of a Satanic, Barbaric and Perverse  and  violent, oppressive  Canaanite  italian Government  who were working as indebted servants who were under conditions that would cause the average, everyday, ordinary  impoverished citizen to feel threatened and in a state of shock, fear and literally trembling.

If you continue to engage in discussing the Bible   - please read the surrounding facts that lead to this statement made by Saint Paul.

And also.  please mention the complete story that concludes in verse  9.

Eph 6:9      And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of outward appearance with him. 

Paul was not addressing the Canaanite  Italian Church Fathers     nor   addressing the Pagan Trinitarian citizens of England.

Who have manipulated, perverted and mistranslated, and altered the original message of the original manuscripts  deliberately   -  to lead you to believe what you believe about the Jewish society and their Scriptures   -  because they knew exactly that this is what your mother and your potential wife would rather believe about the Bible




#21
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,043
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
And Hitler only had one....Or so they say. 
#22
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,043
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Mandrakel
And Mandrakel may well be the root of the Tree of Knowledge.


And Religious marketeers see the benefit of embracing sexual deviation in all it's glory......Hallelujah.

If you recall, it was once an absolute requirement of the Fathers RC Club.

And lying with mankind, as with woman.......Maybe missionary and doggy were the biblical distinctions.....But perhaps Old  Abraham just wasn't quick enough with the chisel.


Joking aside.....I firmly believe that the Bible was a book/code of practice written by Men, for Men and Women.

Citing a supernatural guy up a mountain somewhere, as justification, was a tad audacious.....But some people will believe anything.
#23
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@eventuality001
Your complete lack of relevant sources is interesting, but beyond that it doesn't actually address my point - Jesus was in Rome - Italy didn't become a nation until the 1940s my dude. Furthermore, they specifically said "Slaves, treat your master with..." You see - specifically slaves, so the supervisors of the slaves, and in some, slaves weren't treated correctly. None of what you're saying has anything to do with anything - because there is no account anywhere of Jesus having a family, in fact - Jesus probably doesn't exist. So no, you are wrong - in every account. 
#24
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@zedvictor4
Not sure anything Jesus is said to have taught comes close to Hitler or Nazism but ok. 
#25
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@MisterChris
Mathew 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

So please don't pretend that there is a difference between old and new covenant other than your willingness to accept them.

If half your holy book can be dismissed why have that half in the first place?

#26
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@fauxlaw
Mathew 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

So please don't pretend that there is a difference between old and new covenant other than your willingness to accept them.

If half your holy book can be dismissed why have that half in the first place?


#27
MisterChris
MisterChris's avatar
Debates: 45
Posts: 2,897
5
10
11
MisterChris's avatar
MisterChris
5
10
11
-->
@secularmerlin
until all things are accomplished.

Here is your crucial phrase. You realize that Jesus' death was what accomplished the new Covenant, correct? Realize also that this verse you pulled was Jesus speaking of his "fulfillment" of the law, or the achievement of what God intended for the original Mosaic Law to be: a temporary Law to precede and point to the New Covenant. 


Jesus introduces the New Covenant, ratified with His shed blood (Luke 22:20), but the New Covenant does not destroy the Law; it completes the Law. The sacrifices the Hebrew children had to offer every day were not somehow nullified by the death of Christ; they found their fulfillment in His death. We no longer bake bread, sprinkle it with frankincense, and arrange it on a table in a temple (Leviticus 24:5–7). Instead, we look to the Bread of Life, Jesus Christ (John 6:51). The table of showbread was but a picture of what was to come; it is no longer part of our worship today, but it remains part of the foundation upon which our faith is built (Ephesians 2:20).

If you object to this, I'm not really sure what to say to you. I find it humorous when athiests tell Christians how to interpret their own Holy Book. 
#28
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@MisterChris
I find it humorous when atheists tell Christians how to interpret their own Holy Book. 
Pretty sure it's that IQ thing they think they own. 
#29
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Mandrakel
In other words, you have no intention whatsoever to address the issue raised in the OP whatsoever, i.e. that Christians discriminate against and vilify gays.
Did I not address it, now in my #15? Seems some of us do not see the forest for the trees. 

For you, then since the sense of the answer was not inclusive enough for you, because your charge is demonstrating a lack of inclusion of covering the issue you raise [incorrectly, by the way, since you, once again, make it an all-or-nothing issue], that ALL Christians do not discriminate against and vilify gays:  I said:

Christ answered that there were actually two [commandments]: Love God, and love your neighbor [meaning everyone else]. Under these two laws, all previous Mosaic laws are consumed. If we love God, are not the first 5 commandments covered? If we love our fellow man, are not the last 5 covered, along with every other detailed Mosaic law?
Either you hold to your wide, and self-limiting paint brush, or you do not understand that meaning of "love your fellow man [meaning everyone else."] It is you who carve out with you callous "All Christians discriminate..." Do we, now? 

"If," as I said, "we love our fellow man, are not the last five [of the ten commandments] covered?" I believe that answers your questions; including Q4. But you cannot see it, because you do not want to see it. Your bias slip is showing, sweetie, not mine.
#30
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@MisterChris
Stuff continues to happen. That would seem to suggest that all things are not yet accomplished.