Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Forgive Our Sins?.....

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 47
#31
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@Stephen
Stephen, my dude... you know the Bible infinitely more than i do... i don't even believe Jesus is real. I'd have to read it again and see how i interpret the stuff in the Bible.. but the Bible is so boring so please don't make me research. 
Topic's author
#32
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@BrotherDThomas
Stephen; YOUR ONCE AGAIN REVEALING OXYMORONIC QUOTE: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34).  Amazing isn't it. Jesus asks god to forgive his mockers and persecutors."
Which begs the question why didn't Jesus forgive his  persecutors and  mockers when he had been forgiving people right up to almost the point of his own death.. It is simply preposterous to say that he, Jesus son of a man, had all of a sudden lost his " authority" to forgive them himself. 


The problem with myself in having to accept that Jesus is the serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, then relating to your statement above, when Jesus said "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" postulates that Jesus was literally talking to Himself as God!  It's like Jesus saying: "Hello God, its me, you!"

That was the other point to my post. Why was god asking god - himself-  to forgive his mockers and persecutors?  



As if the dumbfounded of the Bible pseudo-christians like FAUXLAW, PGA2.0, ETERNLVW, et al weren't enough to contend with within this forum, then we have to try and decipher situations of Jesus being God, the Son of Himself, and the Holy Ghost being the aforementioned two,  AND to try and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath.  

Yes well, it's all Greek to me , Brother. 

Topic's author
#33
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Outplayz
Stephen, my dude... you know the Bible infinitely more than i do... i don't even believe Jesus is real. I'd have to read it again and see how i interpret the stuff in the Bible.. but the Bible is so boring so please don't make me research. 

 I am not asking you to or making you  do anything.  But it helps if you knew a little about what your commenting on before commenting.  

This was interesting from you:

i don't even believe Jesus is real.

 I believe a Jesus existed and that he believed he was rightful heir to the throne of David. Or those that put him forward for the job did.  I don't believe he was  a son of a god in the silly biological sense that Christians believe  and  will have us believe.   Being called "son of god"  is/was nothing more that a title.  Emperor means exactly the same thing.   The whole nation of Israel were called sons of god HERE> Exodus 4:22.   King  Solomon was a "son of god", I Chronicles 22:9-10  , David  was " a son of god"Psalms 2:7
but these are the little facts that Christian elders and  Christians on this forum wish to  keep from their flock.

but the Bible is so boring

 Christians  rely on people  just like you that don't read the bible for themselves "because it is boring".  They rely on people just like you for a living. They can guide their congregations to what verses they should turn to. Have the verse read out-loud to them and then have it all explained to them in one fashion or another.  The explanation will change from Pastor to Pastor, from Priest to Priest and Chaplain to Chaplain.  For most of the time they are "just passing on" what they have been taught or heard.

Read this from the horses mouth>>#20  " in most parts are merely passing on the teaching of what i have received."<<< those are the words of a fully trained and educated Pastor and Chaplain on this forum,  who is also a lawyer and trained in many languages that teaches at universities.  I have shown him that he doesn't know his scripture too.


But what they also do is steer the congregation away from the more problematic, contradictory  and ambiguous verses that they cannot explain away with nothing other than       " god works in mysterious ways". 

Do you believe that all the money for all of those beautifully designed gothic and medieval churches came from god?  Donations for forgiveness was thought up by priests not gods.

The point of this thread was to show that the idea that a blood sacrifice was need is proven by the bible itself  to be bullshite.

You may have missed this>.

I have mentioned a few times now that it was never a case that Jesus came to die for our forgiveness that we may live and  dwell in "paradise/heaven". But like many claims made by Christians the bible has it own way of debunking what they claim and believe.

First of all Jesus claims that he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. Matthew 15:24. These would be the 12 Jewish tribes that made up Israel,  gods " son".  Exodus 4:22  and not some tribe from  a remote island in the Pacific or South American rain forest.

 No, we are talking Palestine in the time of the failed messiah Jesus, also known as - the Christ.  And, it appears that Jesus was very much alive and well,and not dead or even resurrected when he started going around forgiving people at will, and the bible makes this clear.  And the bible always has a knack for contradicting what later Christians come believe without reason.

The bible clearly states that Jesus said to people "your sins are forgiven". Example Mark 2:5 to the paralysed man ; "“Son, your sins are forgiven.” see also  Matthew 9:4-7
 This was blasphemy according to the priesthood ,  "He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Mark 2:7.    Jesus 's response to this charge comes via Mark 2:10
"the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins": and we can see from this that Jesus it appears was forgiving people on a regular basis.

The priesthood had notched up another charge to level against him  but non the less, Jesus carried on going around just forgiving people all over the place and even while he hung on the cross,  which is interesting for another reasons when we take the time to read the words Jesus is said to have  actually spoke:


“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34).  Amazing isn't it. Jesus asks god to forgive his mockers and persecutors. Why?  Why didn't Jesus himself forgive them as he had been forgiving others including those that hung by his side!?  

Anyway, regardless. Jesus, the BIBLE states , was forgiving people even before he was arrested  and crucified showing that there was absolute no reason for a blood sacrifice to forgive sins..

#34
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Just had myself two hot cross buns. 
With Triple butter. 
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm 

Got me to thinking,
Jesus didn't die on the cross to forgive our sins. 

He did it so we can allllllllllllll enjoy Hot cross buns.   
So ummmmm yeah. 
Praise the Lord.  

Well that is seriously the only thing that I can see we humans have gained from that. 
 

#35
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Stephen
“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34).  Amazing isn't it. Jesus asks god to forgive his mockers and persecutors. Why?  Why didn't Jesus himself forgive them as he had been forgiving others including those that hung by his side!?  
Jesus seems to be at his most human on the cross, and at his most separate from God -- hence his crying out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (I find this the most compelling line and moment in the Bible and I could go on about it at length, but I mustn't digress.) Some Christians interpret God as having to turn away from Jesus in this moment, because Jesus had taken on the sins of humanity on the cross -- meaning Jesus would not have had his forgive-y powers because he was disconnected from God.
#36
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
Just had myself two hot cross buns. 
With Triple butter. 
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm 

Got me to thinking,
Jesus didn't die on the cross to forgive our sins. 

He did it so we can allllllllllllll enjoy Hot cross buns.   
So ummmmm yeah. 
Praise the Lord.  

Well that is seriously the only thing that I can see we humans have gained from that. 
You are a philosopher and a scholar, Deb.
#37
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@Castin
Hi pal.

As a non believer I was a little hesitant about eating one. 
I could of easily decrossed them , but you know me castin.
I too like to live life dangerously.

Anyway I ate them over a hour ago now and I feel fine.  



Topic's author
#38
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Castin
“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34).  Amazing isn't it. Jesus asks god to forgive his mockers and persecutors. Why?  Why didn't Jesus himself forgive them as he had been forgiving others including those that hung by his side!?  
Jesus seems to be at his most human on the cross, and at his most separate from God -- hence his crying out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Indeed,its very human trait to have doubt isn't it?


Some Christians interpret God as having to turn away from Jesus in this moment

Does the bible suggest he "turned away" from god?  Or is that Jesus was a man that had lost faith in what he had been believing in,  as  many very human beings do when sadness and sorrow and hopelessness enters their lives.  I personnel believe it was a plot that was almost fatal and he was lucky to survive the stunt.


because Jesus had taken on the sins of humanity on the cross -- meaning Jesus would not have had his forgive-y powers because he was disconnected from God.

All assumption Castin. The bible shows that there was absolutely no reason for a blood sacrifice for forgiveness.  Jesus died for sedition and not for some benevolent and selfless act of forgiving and "saving" the whole of  making .

Look, if the bible is to be believed at all on any level, then lives had already been saved , he had already, according to the bible, resurrected and saved "dead " people. He had also already been  "forgiving" people all over the place, too. The story is a nonsense that falls flat simply because Jesus' own actions prove it to be nonsense.



#39
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Stephen
Well obviously those are not my beliefs. I just do my best to represent some Christian views since I don't see a lot of Christians directly answering your questions.

My personal belief is that Jesus died because he became a threat to the authorities of Palestine and Judea. His crucifixion threw his followers and his movement into ideological crisis -- the messiah was never supposed to die. They had to turn his death into something meaningful, or everything they believed in was dead. So they created a narrative where it was a miraculous sacrifice that was planned all along by God.

Since his outcry was kept in Aramaic in Mark and Matthew -- "Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani?" -- and since it depicts a very human Jesus who does not sound at all god-like, I am inclined to believe Jesus may have actually said this on the cross in a moment of genuine doubt and abandonment. It's very sad.

Look, if the bible is to be believed at all on any level, then lives had already been saved , he had already, according to the bible, resurrected and saved "dead " people. He had also already been  "forgiving" people all over the place, too. The story is a nonsense that falls flat simply because Jesus' own actions prove it to be nonsense.
He had been forgiving individuals, but not everyone. His death on the cross was supposed to be for everyone, or so Christians believe.
Topic's author
#40
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Castin
My personal belief is that Jesus died because he became a threat to the authorities of Palestine and Judea.
Sedition and rebellion.


- the messiah was never supposed to die.

Correct. And so proving that he could never have been the messiah prophesised about  in the Old Testament as Christians will have us believe.




since it depicts a very human Jesus who does not sound at all god-like, I am inclined to believe Jesus may have actually said this on the cross in a moment of genuine doubt and abandonment. It's very sad.

Indeed it does.


Look, if the bible is to be believed at all on any level, then lives had already been saved , he had already, according to the bible, resurrected and saved "dead " people. He had also already been  "forgiving" people all over the place, too. The story is a nonsense that falls flat simply because Jesus' own actions prove it to be nonsense.
He had been forgiving individuals, but not everyone.

When he could have just forgiven everyone. Just as he could have cured blindness instead of just one blind man. Or eradicated leprosy instead of just a few lepers. Do you see the nonsense this all makes of the scriptures?



His death on the cross was supposed to be for everyone, or so Christians believe.

Well I have done that one point to death.    Jesus, again , in his own words tells us that came to unite and rule over the "lost sheep of Israel ONLY". And they would have been Jews, like himself, Christians simply cannot accept this very clear fact.


#41
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@fauxlaw



.

FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin, and goes against Jesus in taking care of the poor,

YOUR BIBLE AND OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE STUPIDITY!: "Too bad that 21st century "understanding" is merely dictionary-to-dictionary translation of biblical text, when dictionaries do a frankly piss-poor job of teaching culture unless one believes one can have access to something Stephen and Thomas, along with much of Christendom, have already dismissed as irrelevant: modern revelation."

First thing, you show your perceived intelligence by using the dictionaries as a piss poor form of "TRANSLATION" of biblical text, when in turn Bible fool, the many divisions of Christianity and the many different Bibles of same do the same thing. Get it, huh? Maybe? Stepped in the proverbial poo again? YES YOU DID! LOL

Screw modern revelation, because Jesus and I only use revelation within the scriptures, and that you blatantly fall upon your Satanic face upon, and will continue to do so at your expense within this forum, understood?  Your ONLY claim to fame within this esteemed forum is the fact that you are a disgrace to Christianity and this forum by being the #1 Bible runaway from Jesus' inspired words as explicitly shown in the following link: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5877-any-thoughts-on-salixes?page=3&post_number=73

 We can all see that you took your "Pseudo-Christian Stupid Pills" this morning! LOL


NEXT?


.
#42
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@BrotherDThomas
'Wee' who? You and the pocket mouse? 
#43
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@fauxlaw



.
MY DIRECT QUOTE TO THE #1 BIBLE RUNAWAY FOOL FAUXLAW, POST #41:

FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin, and goes against Jesus in taking care of the poor,

YOUR BIBLE AND OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE STUPIDITY!: "Too bad that 21st century "understanding" is merely dictionary-to-dictionary translation of biblical text, when dictionaries do a frankly piss-poor job of teaching culture unless one believes one can have access to something Stephen and Thomas, along with much of Christendom, have already dismissed as irrelevant: modern revelation."

First thing, you show your perceived intelligence by using the dictionaries as a piss poor form of "TRANSLATION" of biblical text, when in turn Bible fool, the many divisions of Christianity and the many different Bibles of same do the same thing. Get it, huh? Maybe? Stepped in the proverbial poo again? YES YOU DID! LOL

Screw modern revelation, because Jesus and I only use revelation within the scriptures, and that you blatantly fall upon your Satanic face upon, and will continue to do so at your expense within this forum, understood?  Your ONLY claim to fame within this esteemed forum is the fact that you are a disgrace to Christianity and this forum by being the #1 Bible runaway from Jesus' inspired words as explicitly shown in the following link: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5877-any-thoughts-on-salixes?page=3&post_number=73

 We can all see that you took your "Pseudo-Christian Stupid Pills" this morning! LOL




FAUXLAWS CHILD LIKE FOLLOWUP RESPONSE TO MY SUPERIOR GODLY QUOTE ABOVE WITH HIS POST #42:  

'Wee' who? You and the pocket mouse?



Membership, do you see what I am dealing with at FAUXLAW’S total and complete embarrassment of not being able to address my godly posts, other than to RUN AWAY from them with his “little boy” grade school responses?  He holds the title well of being the #1 runaway from the Bible fool of this forum, praise Jesus! 


NEXT RUN AWAY BIBLE FOOL LIKE FAUXLAW WILL BE ..?


.


#44
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
Membership: what's my runaway count again? I must be running a lot. Glad I'm in shape.
#45
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen
@fauxlaw



FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin, and literally goes against Jesus in taking care of the poor,


YOUR WANTING COMEDIC POST #44 THAT IS AN EMBARRASSMENT TO YOU AND JESUS THE CHRIST:  "Membership: what's my runaway count again? I must be running a lot. Glad I'm in shape."

Your complete ignorance and stupidity of the JUDEO-Christian Bible is like the five stages of death, whereas they are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.  Do you understand this dilemma of yours thus far? Huh?


THE FIVE STAGES OF BEING A PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE FOOL AND RUNAWAY OF SAME:

Your denial stage  was when you couldn’t accept that our Jesus was proven to be a serial killer, an abortionist, and where He came ONLY for the Hebrew people, and many other disturbing facts about the Savior that took away any notion of Him being ever loving and forgiving. 

Your anger stage  was when you couldn’t argue against the truths that I brought forth of Jesus being as described above in such an horrific way, because you were spoon fed your Christian doctrine by others and the specific division of the faith that you follow (of which you are to embarrassed to tell us what division you follow).

Your bargaining stage is since you couldn’t respond to my substantiated biblical axioms and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath, you had to use grade-school non sequiturs in lieu of actually addressing the main topic at hand, other than to run away from it!

Your depression stage will be forthcoming, but more than likely will be hidden from us why you try in vain to grasp for straws that are allegedly there,  but are not even there to begin with because of your Bible ineptness.

Your acceptance stage will be forthcoming, as it was shown by the equally Bible inept Tradesecret, ethang5, Soluminsanis, and many others. These pseudo-christians like you had to seemingly leave this prestigious Religion Forum because they could not accept anymore of what I and many others have brought forth in showing the TRUTH within the JUDEO-Christian Bible, understood Bible fool?


Now, lets see you perform your Bargaining Stage with yet another child-like grade-school non sequitur to this ever so revealing post regarding your chagrin and true runaway status from the JUDEO-Christian Bible upon this forum.  BEGIN:


.
#46
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@fauxlaw



.
FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin, and literally goes against Jesus in taking care of the poor,


YOUR POST #44  WHERE YOU OBVIOUSLY CAN'T KEEP TRACK OF YOUR RUNAWAYS FROM SUBSTANTIATED BIBLICAL AXIOMS FROM ME ALONE: "Membership: what's my runaway count again? I must be running a lot. Glad I'm in shape."

FAUXLAW, to answer your question, your runaway from substantiated biblical axioms within the JUDEO-Christian Bible are at 55 at this time as  shown in your  humiliating and ever growing list below, and that will live in total disgrace for you in DEBATEART Religion Forum history!  


























25. The embarrassing Bible runaway post from the Bible inept FAUXLAW is when he broke TRADESECRETS record of 24 run aways from  biblical axioms! 

























50. THE INFAMOUS NUMBER 50 RUNAWAY POST FROM BIBLICAL AXIOMS BY FAUXLAW!!!!








.

10 days later

#47
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Intelligence_06
Christianity only became popular after some Roman monarch said he’d believe in it. If it’s be true then everyone would believe in it.
That is not true. History disagrees with you. 

Christianity was so popular at the time - according to the history books that the Roman empire had no choice but to go with it. 

There is significant evidence to show that the increase of Christianity from its earliest days up until Constantine became a Christian was exponential in growth. In fact it was from Constantine's time and following that Christianity began to decline.  Once you take a persecuted religion and make it part of the landscape, it loses it momentum. 

Constantine might have made Rome Christian in name, but it really was a loss to Christianity as a religion. Its power was taken away - and is what happens everytime becomes part of the majority. 

This is one of the reasons I think our governments should stop being so harsh on Christians. If Christians think they are being persecuted without good reason, they tend to get all passionate about their Jesus.  In China, Christianity is the fastest growing underground religion. Similarly in other places they are persecuted around the world.  But where they are simply ignored - they tend to become secular and blend it - not causing much problems.  In the West this is seen - they have become so weak and hold no doctrine of substance - all have become Liberal and inclusive and ecumenical. Yet, when they get attacked - then they start to rise up - as we have seen in the past 50 years since Roe v Wade.   No wonder Trump was liked by them - he became like them - attacked and persecuted - and this resonated and their numbers increased significantly. 

History - tells us we should stop persecuting them - make them part of the establishment - then they will not feel threatened and things can go back to normal.