Judas Had A Bad Deal.

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 14
Topic's author
#1
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,595
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
Matthew 5:44.    But I say unto you, Love your enemies.
Matthew 5:39.    Turn the other cheek.
Luke 6:27.    Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you.
Ephesians 4:32.   Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.
Matthew 6:12-14 And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us........

..............and on and on it goes, love  and forgive, love  and forgive. .  That is until we get to Judas, where we read from the lips of Jesus god himself his dire warning of vengeance.:

"BUT WOE TO THE MAN BY WHOME THE SON OF MAN IS BETRAYED! GOOD WERE IT FOR THAT MAN IF HE HAD NEVR BEEN BORN". [ now hurry up and betray me Judas,quickly]  Mark 14:21


We can just feel and see the warm compassion and forgiveness in those words of vengeance can't we?   We can also see all those verses about Love and forgiveness go flying clean out of the window too.

Acceptable to Christians that this vengeful warning may be, and as contradictory to the fluffy nature that the scriptures attempt to portray Jesus to be, Christians  have to realise that everything that Judas did, was all preordained by god himself , if we are to believe all the prophecies were being carried out. According to Christians and the Bible,  this is what " must" happen  and Jesus "spoke plainly " about what "must"happen too. Mark 8:31-32. So why the  vengeful threat towards Judas, who didn't seem to flinch at the thought of the woe's that awaited him?  

We can pick up the story at the last supper where Jesus announces in his usual cryptic fashion that he is about to be betrayed by one of those that dips his bread in the dinner bowel.   Which at that point could have been any of them considering this is  how a meal was eaten in those times, ie. everyone dipping  bread into the same bowl of what ever was on offer.

The protests of  "not me Lord"  "who is it Lord" and " I would never do that to you Lord " are aplenty .  Then-we read that Satan entering Judas and Jesus instructing Judas to go do what he is about to do  and to do it quickly.John 13:27. All preordained see. So why the vengeful threat to his betrayer?

As an aside:

Odd  isn't it that no one present asked why Judas was leaving the party at night in the dark.  There are various excuses made for Judas' sudden disappearance but as usual they simply don't stack up. It is said some thought he was going to buy supplies for the supper, ....that they had already eaten.

But  among those things that should stand out is the fact that Satan has entered Judas...... and no one recognised it!?  Do the heavily relied on Old Testament for prophecies mention anything about Satan being involved in Jesus' betrayal? NO.  The only 'prophecy' that is said to foretell of the betrayal that has been latched onto is Zechariah 11:12-13.

So here we have Judas being warned about doing what he is about to do, and on Jesus` word  he goes out into the night to do what he had been instructed to do. But he will wish he had never been born when he does so.  
Why hadn't a single one of those present recognized a demon when they seen one and cast him out?   nearly 100 of his disciples had only recently been bragging about how they had cast out demons after being endowed with superpowers.Luke 10:17

And nowhere, in the whole of the scriptures will anyone read of anyone praying for love and  the forgiveness of Judas...............Or Satan, come to think of it.












#2
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,431
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Stephen
Remember that Einstei said, "the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this.”
#3
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,002
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
Every story has it's heroes and villains.
Topic's author
#4
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,595
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4
Every story has it's heroes and villains.

 I agree Vic.  But which of those is Judas? 

Was he a villain for betraying Jesus? Or was he a hero for taking one for the team and carrying out gods will as "prophesised"?

It appears that to Jesus believed him to be an evil satanic traitor and betrayer going by the vengeful and unforgiving warning that he issues to " he that dips his bread" in his dinner.

"BUT WOE TO THE MAN BY WHOME THE SON OF MAN IS BETRAYED! GOOD WERE IT FOR THAT MAN IF HE HAD NEVR BEEN BORN". [ now hurry up and betray me Judas,quickly]  Mark 14:21
#5
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
Not sure why it's off to think one should be forgiving. It's not healthy to carry around the emotions one might need to let go off to forgive someone. But even karma states you pay for your choices. My forgiveness of someone doesn't give them a free pass in the afterlife to just not deal with their crap. Forgiveness if for the forgiver not the forgiven. 
Topic's author
#6
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,595
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
Not sure why it's off to think one should be forgiving.

Because Jesus and the bible dictates that Christians  should.  See post  above for details.#1
 But Jesus it appears throws those dictates clean out of the window when it is his turn to forgive, Witch.









#7
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
In the Old Testament Satan works for God so I am not sure he needs forgiveness. renew.org/satan-in-the-old-testament/

Judas is offered the body of Christ by Christ to not go through with the betrayal. There is one unforgiveable sin mentioned in the Bible. Mark 3:28-29 which Judas acts either fall under or don't. If they do then it's on him. If they don't then he is forgiven. If the plan was for Christ to die Judas played a necessary role and would be forgiven. Just because some preacher says he's in hell doesn't make it true. There is no reference to Judas' punishment after death. Of course hell isn't in the Old Testament either. 
Topic's author
#8
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,595
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
In the Old Testament Satan works for God so I am not sure he needs forgiveness. renew.org/satan-in-the-old-testament/

Well he also worked against him too didn't he. He corrupted mankind and beguiled and deceived Eve and was punished for it wasn't he ? Genesis 3:14 There is no mention of god ever forgiving Satan.

Judas is offered the body of Christ by Christ to not go through with the betrayal.

Are you sure about that. Remember he told Judas to go and do what he had to do and do it quickly. 

 And as usual the scriptures differ on the account. Luke only suggest  that Judas was still present for the Eucharist while John has it that Judas "“took the morsel and left at once. And it was night.” This particular morsel was not part of the Eucharist but the bread he dipped in the bowel.  



There is one unforgiveable sin mentioned in the Bible. Mark 3:28-29 which Judas acts either fall under or don't.
Well again , the ambiguous scriptures do not make this clear either, do they?   But  nowhere do we read of Judas blaspheming against the "Holy Ghost"  whatever that may be or mean as in Mathew 12:32. Unless blasphemy includes betraying Jesus /god ?


 Judas acts either fall under or don't.  If they do then it's on him. If they don't then he is forgiven

Good point.  But if Judas wasn't or hasn't been forgiven, this still contradicts everything Christians are taught about forgiveness. Judas was only human. Whereas Satan, a   good friend of god and  been with him from the year dot seems to be popping up all over the place at will.  Making bets with god, killing jobs 10 children, testing god, testing Jesus.  Some punishment that was wasn't it?  It didn't seem to last to long did it, this belly crawling for the rest of his day eating dirt?  But nowhere is it mentioned that Judas has been forgiven and  neither does anyone pray for Judas. 

Maybe the Christians here will offer up a prayer of forgiveness for Judas and Satan? 




If the plan was for Christ to die Judas played a necessary role and would be forgiven.

Well we have Scripture forever telling us it was all prophesied. Judas acted out and  played his part although nowhere in the OT does it once mention that Satan will have a role to play too, in this so called betrayal -  But Judas has been vilified and demonised by the church ever since.

And Jesus does say of the betrayer ;  

"BUT WOE TO THE MAN BY WHOME THE SON OF MAN IS BETRAYED! GOOD WERE IT FOR THAT MAN IF HE HAD NEVR BEEN BORN". [ now hurry up and betray me Judas,quickly]  Mark 14:21
So is that blasphemy?  There is a lot of woe-ing for he that betrays Jesus....according to  Jesus. And no mention of forgiveness.


Just because some preacher says he's in hell doesn't make it true.

That can be said about the scriptures  too


There is no reference to Judas' punishment after death. 

Here again , what is said happened to Judas after he had done gods works is also contradicted by one author and another. One says suicide while another said he fell of a cliff after his belly exploded, take your pick, Witch.
I mean  they can't even get that story right about the most famous betrayer of their time? 

 Maybe he did all three by some twisted "miracle" he threw himself of a cliff and when that didn't do the job he then gave hanging a try and when that didn't work he tried to eat himself to death and  he ate so much that his intestines exploded. That sounds pretty much like a thing the old testament god would cause to happen doesn't it Witch?

 The whole point it that no one has prayed nor  asked for forgiveness for Judas in the scriptures no matter what he is alleged to have done.

 If he blasphemed it can still be asked why hasn't he been forgiven? 
 

#9
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen
@fauxlaw


.
Stephen, who knows more about the JUDEO-Christian Bible than ANY pseudo-christian upon this forum;

What has always bothered me is the biblical fact that my serial killer Jesus created Judas in the first place (Colossians 1:16 ), could control his actions if need be, but Jesus didn't in the betrayal scenario (Psalm 19:21), and knew that Judas was going to betray Him (1 John 3:20)!  Therefore, once again Jesus shows Himself as a very weak God, especially when compared to the almighty Zeus, who is the king of all gods, who also existed at the time of Jesus. :(   

Furthermore, when Jesus ALWAYS forgives His Jewish Creation ONLY, then where is the incentive not to sin? Barring Matthew 18: 21-22, and only using this contradicting passage "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13), then it is easy to continue to sin with forgiveness by Jesus at all times!  Case in point, FAUXLAW has sinned 48 times to date by not even "trying" to defend the faith as Jesus prescribed in  Titus 1:9, so all he has to do, other than being totally embarrassed of this fact, is to just call upon Jesus' name and he is still saved subsequent to him being the #1 runaway from Bible discussions!  


In the name of the hung Savior,

Brother D. Thomas


.







Topic's author
#10
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,595
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@BrotherDThomas
What has always bothered me is the biblical fact that my serial killer Jesus created Judas in the first place (Colossians 1:16 ), could control his actions if need be, but Jesus didn't in the betrayal scenario.
  
So the question is a great big WHY? Was it a purposeful enactment played out in reality for the benefit of  the "multitude"  or to convince the temple  of the authorities of his legitimacy as high priest king of the Jews? 

I can hear the Christians stamping their tiny feet for not considering this question  not to mention have a plausible answer to hand.  The usual one is that it "must" happen as Jesus said it "must" because of a single supposed  OT prophecy,   But this is simply old cobblers. Can anyone not see Matthew and co simply cherry picking OT verses to 'fit' the Jesus story? 

The   "Judas kiss" that is said to have served as the identification of Jesus has to be nonsense  too. And any reader of the scriptures-  Christian or otherwise -   will probably be fed up to the back teeth of these authors contradicting one another.


“And as soon as he wascome, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; andkissed him”. Mark14:45


Onereally has to wonder what that was all about. Judasis said to have identified Jesus with a kiss, whereas he could havejust pointed and said ‘that’s him, the one in the white robe just absolutely glowing in the dark due to the  holy spirit inside of him` . And no one seems to be able to explain why Judas had actually betrayedJesus, except for “it is written” and Jesus said it "must " happen.



But Johnon the other hand tells us Jesus identified himself;

“Theyanswered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. AndJudas also, which betrayed him, stood with them”. John 18:5

And lets not forget, the Jewish authorities knew perfectly well what Jesus looked like. He had had many run-ins with them over things concerning the sabbath and "rendering unto Caesar"   and there is the witnesses at the temple riot which must have amounted to hundreds.  




#11
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen


.
Stephen,  

Once again you make me leery of my TRUE Christianity, where I have to "look the other way" when reading your well researched and thought out posts, and then backing them up historically or biblically. Damn you!

Also of mention is when you stated "Jesus of Nazareth," whereas this town is where Jesus is from,  but at the same time, it did not exist in Jesus' time period!   Many TRUE Christians like myself  look for historical confirmation of this hometown of our serial killer Jesus,  but there is no source whatsoever that confirms that the place even existed in the 1st century AD!  It is disturbing that Nazareth is not mentioned even once in the entire Old Testament. The Book of Joshua (19.10,16) – in what it claims is the process of settlement by the tribe of Zebulon records twelve towns and six villages and yet omits any 'Nazareth' from its list!

The Talmud, although it names 63 Galilean towns, knows nothing of Nazareth, nor does early rabbinic literature. What is really disturbing is that St Paul knows absolutely nothing of Nazareth, and no ancient historian or geographer mentions Nazareth, whereas  it is only first noted at the beginning of the 4th century! Huh? WTF?

At times our Bible scares the Hell out of the TRUE Christians like me, but not for the spoon-fed pseudo-christians that swallow whatever they need to hear.  :(



.





Topic's author
#12
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,595
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@BrotherDThomas
Stephen,  

Once again you make me leery of my TRUE Christianity, where I have to "look the other way" when reading your well researched and thought out posts, and then backing them up historically or biblically. Damn you!

No offence intended , Brother  I can promise you that.

Also of mention is when you stated "Jesus of Nazareth," whereas this town is where Jesus is from,  but at the same time, it did not exist in Jesus' time period!

Indeed as any student of Greek ancient or otherwise will tell you , the word is Nazarene as Jesus was a Nazarite as far as I understand. Still it is neither here nor there where he was from or what he was, he didn't forgive Judas for doing the lords work, period!



  Many TRUE Christians like myself  look for historical confirmation of this hometown of our serial killer Jesus,  but there is no source whatsoever that confirms that the place even existed in the 1st century AD!


 That is true.  I mentioned this fact sometime ago.

It is disturbing that Nazareth is not mentioned even once in the entire Old Testament. The Book of Joshua (19.10,16) – in what it claims is the process of settlement by the tribe of Zebulon records twelve towns and six villages and yet omits any 'Nazareth' from its list!

The Talmud, although it names 63 Galilean towns, knows nothing of Nazareth, nor does early rabbinic literature. What is really disturbing is that St Paul knows absolutely nothing of Nazareth, and no ancient historian or geographer mentions Nazareth, whereas  it is only first noted at the beginning of the 4th century! Huh? WTF?
Indeed Paul the murderer of Jesus' own flock didn't know a lot to be honest Brother.   He made it all up on the hoof as many Christians today do once they have painted themselves into a theological corner.

Indeed some christian bibles make it perfectly clear what was written on the head board of the cross read . Young's transliteration for instance>>

"And Pilate also wrote a title, and put it on the cross, and it was written, 'Jesus the Nazarene, the king of the Jews".

The Derby Bible also states clearly:


And Pilate wrote a title also and put it on the cross. But there was written: Jesus the Nazarene, the King of the Jews.

Now Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written: “JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

Pilate also had a sign lettered and put on the cross. The inscription was: JESUS THE NAZARENE THE KING OF THE JEWS

 The list goes on Brother. And it appears that as new information is slowly discovered , uncovered and revealed we have over the centuries have been able to piece together a better and clearer picture  of what it was like in the  first century Palestine of Jesus's time, minus the so called "miracles"!


At times our Bible scares the Hell out of the TRUE Christians like me, but not for the spoon-fed pseudo-christians that swallow whatever they need to hear.  :(


 And that about sums up the situation. It scares then to hear a few fact and it scares them to realise that they have probably been backing the wrong horse for over 2,000 years.  So simply choose to ignore.

#13
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,431
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Stephen
An interesting read is Leo Tolstoys, The Kingdom of God is Within You. In his search for the meaning of life, Tolstoy’s only torch was the light of nineteenth-century reason. If he was won over by Jesus’ message, it was because he came to believe that Jesus was simply the most rational but human teacher ever to have walked the planet – not some incredible ‘son of God’ whose body was resurrected and actually flew back into heaven. Tolstoy believed that traditional mysteries such as Jesus’ divinity, Mary’s virginity, miracles and resurrections were either total nonsense or could be rationalised away.
Topic's author
#14
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,595
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@FLRW
Tolstoy believed that traditional mysteries such as Jesus’ divinity, Mary’s virginity, miracles and resurrections were either total nonsense or could be rationalised away.


I believe it to be a bit of both. As I have explained over many of my threads. One example being  raising the "dead" who were not dead in the physical and natural rotten stinking corpse sense at all.  Raising the "dead" to the be among the living is nothing more than a ceremony, a ritualistic and symbolic initiation.
Jesus chose his twelve from among the " dead "  into his circle of the living.  There are many giveaways in the scriptures that point to this being the case. And one perfect example of this is this nugget from Jesus himself:


Matthew 8:21-22
 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. King James Version

Take that literal and at face value and it makes no sense at all, in fact if this was meant in the literal sense then it would be and out `n` out impossibility.. But take into consideration what I have wrote then it all makes perfect sense. And it becomes perfectly clear that this can only mean dead in spirit or faith.

Lazarus wasn't "dead" he had lost faith in the Jesus movement and the cause, while undergoing the "raising" ritual, and neither was the lost "dead" son who was simply wayward and decided to strike out on his own to see what the world was like among the "dead". 

24 " For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate. Luke 15:11-32 . It seems  being "dead" was a common idiom among the faithful Jews of the time.

Indeed we use such a term today when we see children sleeping  as being -"dead" to the world.  Or the saying to someone very much alive " as far as I am concerned, you are dead to me"


This example of the "dead" sleeping   daughter is interesting;

“behold,there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.  And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise. He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose”.Matthew9: 18-25.KJV

So we see, if the “certain” ruler’s daughter is dead has her father believes she is, ( and I am sure he would know a dead daughter of his from a live one) then Jesus lied .   And if she (the daughter) was not dead, then there was no miracle performed but a ritual “raising”.

It seems sycophantic fawning Christians and these Gospel writers, want it both ways. 

Again it is interesting that when these crafty gospel authors do not want you to know something they often use that  enigmatic word " certain" instead of just spitting it out. A "certain"  place and "certain" person. 

All the raising of those that had lost faith and became spiritually "dead"  yet  not  a single prayer of forgiveness for Judas from a single person in scriptures.